Worlds 2018 - SPOILERS

inseine

KingstonGraham wrote:

inseine wrote:

I think 'hate' is just a catchall word. I know that on the Velocast they really dislike Millar yet love Valverde. It is something to to with staying quiet is somehow better than an apology (or at least an explanation) that some people don't believe. I think they dislike thinking he's asking for forgiveness.
For what it's wife my wife 'loves' him because he sound quite educated (something are in the cycling world?). I think he's good as a pundit and accept him for what he is.

I don't think Valverde's "I did nothing wrong" is better than Millar's "I took drugs except on the days when I was good". Millar is good at reading a race, but I don't like him still taking a job from a clean rider.

It's a dilemma obviously, but unless you ban for life how do you do that? We either believe in second chances or it's one strike, but even real criminals are allowed to reintegrate into society when they're let out. I agree it's complicated.

larkim

Craigus89 wrote:

larkim wrote:

TakeTheHighRoad wrote:

it's incorrect to attribute how contrite people were in their apologies as a means to judge them.

The rest of your post is sensible enough imho, but I don't follow this logic at all. Surely is entirely reasonable to look at two convicted dopers and judge one to be the "better" athlete because of their level of contrition? Even if they'd have been perfectly happy not to have been caught, once caught a change of heart is good to see / hear surely?

Then why does everyone, or at least most people still hate Millar?

Evidence / backup for the "most people"? I don't. I rate him as a commentator and an advocate for the drug-free competition, and as someone with a clear insight into why people dope, how they dope and where the problems lie.

Maybe I just see him differently to others.

larkim

inseine wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

inseine wrote:

I think 'hate' is just a catchall word. I know that on the Velocast they really dislike Millar yet love Valverde. It is something to to with staying quiet is somehow better than an apology (or at least an explanation) that some people don't believe. I think they dislike thinking he's asking for forgiveness.
For what it's wife my wife 'loves' him because he sound quite educated (something are in the cycling world?). I think he's good as a pundit and accept him for what he is.

I don't think Valverde's "I did nothing wrong" is better than Millar's "I took drugs except on the days when I was good". Millar is good at reading a race, but I don't like him still taking a job from a clean rider.

It's a dilemma obviously, but unless you ban for life how do you do that? We either believe in second chances or it's one strike, but even real criminals are allowed to reintegrate into society when they're let out. I agree it's complicated.

Agree with that dilemma - I'd happily have a "ban for life" sanction in place, despite it being more severe than any criminal sanction given objectively the level of the crime committed; mostly for the deterrent effect if we are confident in no false postives.

But equally I'm a forgiving soul - we give people with serious criminal convictions the ability to get a second chance, and I'm very willing to believe that people make very bad decisions and then genuinely regret them.

I think we could come up with a compromise somewhere - life bans from the Olympics, life bans from World Champs, potentially even life bans from certain nominated events like the GTs. With time-based sanctions for other lower tier events. So with the parallel to the criminal world, if I'm convicted of fraud I may well never be allowed to be an FD of a major company, but there will be other finance based jobs that I might be allowed to do with lower earning potential and lower profile.

Not a perfect suggestion, of course.

kingstongraham

inseine wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

inseine wrote:

I think 'hate' is just a catchall word. I know that on the Velocast they really dislike Millar yet love Valverde. It is something to to with staying quiet is somehow better than an apology (or at least an explanation) that some people don't believe. I think they dislike thinking he's asking for forgiveness.
For what it's wife my wife 'loves' him because he sound quite educated (something are in the cycling world?). I think he's good as a pundit and accept him for what he is.

I don't think Valverde's "I did nothing wrong" is better than Millar's "I took drugs except on the days when I was good". Millar is good at reading a race, but I don't like him still taking a job from a clean rider.

It's a dilemma obviously, but unless you ban for life how do you do that? We either believe in second chances or it's one strike, but even real criminals are allowed to reintegrate into society when they're let out. I agree it's complicated.

How do you do what? He's served his ban from competing in the sport, but now comments on it. I just don't do ITV if there's another option. Even though he's good at his job, I enjoy it more if I'm not listening to him.

Your point about real criminals reintegrating into society - if a doctor has been convicted of something that affects their job, they don't get to go back to being a doctor even when their sentence is complete. There are the equivalents of lifetime bans elsewhere.

dinyull

KingstonGraham wrote:

inseine wrote:

I think 'hate' is just a catchall word. I know that on the Velocast they really dislike Millar yet love Valverde. It is something to to with staying quiet is somehow better than an apology (or at least an explanation) that some people don't believe. I think they dislike thinking he's asking for forgiveness.
For what it's wife my wife 'loves' him because he sound quite educated (something are in the cycling world?). I think he's good as a pundit and accept him for what he is.

I don't think Valverde's "I did nothing wrong" is better than Millar's "I took drugs except on the days when I was good".

Haha, I find it amazing so many people buy into Millar.

Was never a fan before reading his books, but they pretty much confirmed what I already thought of the man.

Vino'sGhost

Im so happy that my incredulity at St Millars re integration is also considered odd by others.

Vino'sGhost

KingstonGraham wrote:

inseine wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

inseine wrote:

I think 'hate' is just a catchall word. I know that on the Velocast they really dislike Millar yet love Valverde. It is something to to with staying quiet is somehow better than an apology (or at least an explanation) that some people don't believe. I think they dislike thinking he's asking for forgiveness.
For what it's wife my wife 'loves' him because he sound quite educated (something are in the cycling world?). I think he's good as a pundit and accept him for what he is.

I don't think Valverde's "I did nothing wrong" is better than Millar's "I took drugs except on the days when I was good". Millar is good at reading a race, but I don't like him still taking a job from a clean rider.

It's a dilemma obviously, but unless you ban for life how do you do that? We either believe in second chances or it's one strike, but even real criminals are allowed to reintegrate into society when they're let out. I agree it's complicated.

How do you do what? He's served his ban from competing in the sport, but now comments on it. I just don't do ITV if there's another option. Even though he's good at his job, I enjoy it more if I'm not listening to him.

Your point about real criminals reintegrating into society - if a doctor has been convicted of something that affects their job, they don't get to go back to being a doctor even when their sentence is complete. There are the equivalents of lifetime bans elsewhere.

Financial services, teaching, policing, the list is endless.

larkim

KingstonGraham wrote:

inseine wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

inseine wrote:

I think 'hate' is just a catchall word. I know that on the Velocast they really dislike Millar yet love Valverde. It is something to to with staying quiet is somehow better than an apology (or at least an explanation) that some people don't believe. I think they dislike thinking he's asking for forgiveness.
For what it's wife my wife 'loves' him because he sound quite educated (something are in the cycling world?). I think he's good as a pundit and accept him for what he is.

I don't think Valverde's "I did nothing wrong" is better than Millar's "I took drugs except on the days when I was good". Millar is good at reading a race, but I don't like him still taking a job from a clean rider.

It's a dilemma obviously, but unless you ban for life how do you do that? We either believe in second chances or it's one strike, but even real criminals are allowed to reintegrate into society when they're let out. I agree it's complicated.

How do you do what? He's served his ban from competing in the sport, but now comments on it. I just don't do ITV if there's another option. Even though he's good at his job, I enjoy it more if I'm not listening to him.

Your point about real criminals reintegrating into society - if a doctor has been convicted of something that affects their job, they don't get to go back to being a doctor even when their sentence is complete. There are the equivalents of lifetime bans elsewhere.

Yes, but those are criminal/regulatory bans for criminal acts. As wrong as it is, doped cheating is far, far less serious a "crime" than most actual criminal offences (barring of course the obtaining cash through salaries or prizes as a consequence of cheating). It's only a sport, after all

inseine

Vino'sGhost wrote:

Im so happy that my incredulity at St Millars re integration is also considered odd by others.

That must be a great comfort.
From a moral point of view I don’t have issue him commentating and I think he’s really good at it.
Some people just don’t like him, but that’s a different matter.

DeVlaeminck

There's a middle ground between the Holy David view and him being the Devil incarnate. He's human like the rest of us, the offence he committed was hardly unusual at the time so it seems likely that many, maybe most, of us would have done the same in his circumstances.

I would hazard a guess that Millar himself doesn't want to be seen as a saint but neither does he want his whole character defined by the fact he cheated to do well in bike races in an era when cheating in bike races was common.

Matthewfalle

Vino'sGhost wrote:

Im so happy that my incredulity at St Millars re integration is also considered odd by others.

this.

Vino'sGhost

DeVlaeminck wrote:

There's a middle ground between the Holy David view and him being the Devil incarnate. He's human like the rest of us, the offence he committed was hardly unusual at the time so it seems likely that many, maybe most, of us would have done the same in his circumstances.

I would hazard a guess that Millar himself doesn't want to be seen as a saint but neither does he want his whole character defined by the fact he cheated to do well in bike races in an era when cheating in bike races was common.

hes not the Devil, hes a very naughty boy

kingstongraham

DeVlaeminck wrote:

There's a middle ground between the Holy David view and him being the Devil incarnate. He's human like the rest of us, the offence he committed was hardly unusual at the time so it seems likely that many, maybe most, of us would have done the same in his circumstances.

I would hazard a guess that Millar himself doesn't want to be seen as a saint but neither does he want his whole character defined by the fact he cheated to do well in bike races in an era when cheating in bike races was common.

Should try a different job then, maybe?

ddraver

DeVlaeminck wrote:

I would hazard a guess that Millar himself doesn't want to be seen as a saint but neither does he want his whole character defined by the fact he cheated to do well in bike races in an era when cheating in bike races was common.

Agreed mostly. I don't think anyone actually thinks he's a saint, thats just good old fashioned online cycling fan petulance. People don't like him cos British and cos silly hats. Fine, but be honest with yourselves.

He's the best current UK "expert" commentator albeit against minimal competition. But then...who else is bothering to give him any competition? The CPA election was similar. No one, including the riders it seems, had realised what a total sham it was until this year. If Millar hadnt put his head above the parapet we likely still wouldnt. I suspect he won't run in 3 years, but someone else will and Bugno will actually have to get off his arse and acheive something to win again.

I have to give him credit for that...

It's going to be a long time until I buy some Chapter 3 kit, however.

inseine

I think he gets a bit of a rough deal with the saint monika. It’s not like he came up with that or even says he’d done anything particularly saint like, quite the opposite. The ‘I doped, now I’m clean’ is hardly a unique stance in the cycling world.

craigus89

ddraver wrote:

Agreed mostly. I don't think anyone actually thinks he's a saint, thats just good old fashioned online cycling fan petulance. People don't like him cos British and cos silly hats. Fine, but be honest with yourselves.

He's the best current UK "expert" commentator albeit against minimal competition. But then...who else is bothering to give him any competition? The CPA election was similar. No one, including the riders it seems, had realised what a total sham it was until this year. If Millar hadnt put his head above the parapet we likely still wouldnt. I suspect he won't run in 3 years, but someone else will and Bugno will actually have to get off his ars* and acheive something to win again.

I have to give him credit for that...

It's going to be a long time until I buy some Chapter 3 kit, however.

Here, here. Couldn't have put it better myself.

yorkshireraw

Millar - doped, fessed up (when 'caught', I know), came back and talked about why he did it and how he didn't want to do it now - seen by some as the devil

Scarponi - doped, involved with 2 notorious doctors (I think both Ferrari and Fuentes?), came back, didn't talk about it really - got tragically killed and is universally loved / remembered.

The difference isn't the doping then, it's people's perception of the personality.

ddraver

Death is, unfortunately, a good way to win sympathy.

See also Pantani...

FocusZing

Twenty eight pages, quite a few. Another ten and we can reach the magic winning thirty eight!

bobmcstuff

inseine wrote:

Vino'sGhost wrote:

Im so happy that my incredulity at St Millars re integration is also considered odd by others.

That must be a great comfort.
From a moral point of view I don’t have issue him commentating and I think he’s really good at it.
Some people just don’t like him, but that’s a different matter.

Same, he's a massive bellend but he is quite good at calling races.

Far preferable to that hooting moron Kirby.

FocusZing

@millarmind
I AM COOL WITH @alejanvalverde BEING THE @UCI_cycling WORLD CHAMPION

@millarmind
With Michael McNamee (Professor of Applied Ethics) at the @Olympics #OlympismInAction forum in Buenos Aires. I’m speaking this morning on combatting doping in sport, I have a feeling it will be rather interesting.

Have a cool time.

blazing_saddles

Just caught up. Very entertaining............and the race wasn't bad either.

You believe that the current system works, then Valverde has to be as kosher as the next guy.
You don't, then Valverde is only as dodgy as the next guy.
The only apologies in this game that count for much are those given freely, without prior knowledge.
Have there been any?

FocusZing

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Just caught up. Very entertaining............and the race wasn't bad either.

You believe that the current system works, then Valverde has to be as kosher as the next guy.
You don't, then Valverde is only as dodgy as the next guy.
The only apologies in this game that count for much are those given freely, without prior knowledge.
Have there been any?

So how do we make the fans believe in the results one hundred percent, is that important?

Should I just think of WWE when I watch to not get carried away with results?

inseine

So mush for the doubters about the kit. Valverde looking stylish.

FocusZing

^Is that his brother on the left and daughters either side of him?

knedlicky

FocusZing wrote:

^Is that his brother on the left and daughters either side of him?

He has three young sons, no daughters.
The event is a traditional fun bike ride sponsored by Movistar, this year back and forth along a main thoroughfare in the centre of Madrid (the route changes now and again). It took place this last Sunday. Delgado was supposed to be there as well, as he has often been in the past.

m.r.m.

That was a joke poking fun at his age from FocusZing

prawny

It made me chuckle

gsk82

inseine wrote:

So mush for the doubters about the kit. Valverde looking stylish.

He won't once he takes the arm warmers off but not the legs warmers

ocdupalais

knedlicky wrote:

FocusZing wrote:

^Is that his brother on the left and daughters either side of him?

He has three young sons, no daughters.
The event is a traditional fun bike ride sponsored by Movistar, this year back and forth along a main thoroughfare in the centre of Madrid (the route changes now and again). It took place this last Sunday. Delgado was supposed to be there as well, as he has often been in the past.

In that case, he needs to stop holding the little girl I keep seeing him with in podium photos...