Worlds 2018 - SPOILERS

ddraver

AvV had surgery on her knee today and is apparently out from racing for 6 Months!

Not sure how this affects training but presumably she can't go full gas on that either (though possibly it's about minimising the risk of crashing)

Vino'sGhost

Pross wrote:

Some over the top comments on here. I've never been Valverde's biggest fan but he served his ban and there's no doubting he's a racer. He respects races and doesn't just turn up to make up the numbers like many.

This is true. And that he battled back from that crash at the tour just over a year ago speaks volumes about his winning mentality

gsk82

OCDuPalais wrote:

I spent a long time begrudging Valverde’s presence in every race until his magnificent racing wore my grumbling away, like the ocean wears away a sharp little angry uptight pebble...

Very profound. But I think you mean until he stopped sucking wheel and started racing with some style.

tailwindhome

With the exception of the TDF crash last year, Valverde hasn't finished outside the top 50 in any race he's started since May 2016.

ocdupalais

gsk82 wrote:

OCDuPalais wrote:

I spent a long time begrudging Valverde’s presence in every race until his magnificent racing wore my grumbling away, like the ocean wears away a sharp little angry uptight pebble...

Very profound. But I think you mean until he stopped sucking wheel and started racing with some style.

Other than beating Armstrong at Courcheval at the Tour in 2005 then winning L-B-L in 2008 then the opening stage in the Tour - and then going on to win countless other classics... unless you mean his wheel sucking happened briefly in the junior ranks?
6th highest ranking of all time on the shonky CyclingRanking.com all time table... hehe... and good job scrolling down the list to find the first rider you think might have been “clean”.

RichN95.

OCDuPalais wrote:

Other than beating Armstrong at Courcheval at the Tour in 2005 then winning L-B-L in 2008 then the opening stage in the Tour - and then going on to win countless other classics... unless you mean his wheel sucking happened briefly in the junior ranks?
6th highest ranking of all time on the shonky CyclingRanking.com all time table... hehe... and good job scrolling down the list to find the first rider you think might have been “clean”.

Courheval 2005 - he actually did work on the front (for Mancebo). Still won. That was peak Puerto Valverde.

Otherwise he tends to hide, do the minimum needed and rely on his sprint. He's just a more talented Simon Gerrans.

Now I personally don't think there is anything wrong with this. But he does get portrayed by some as an exciting 'real racer' which is nonsense (although he's had his moments in the last couple of years). But he's probably the most cooly calculating rider in the peloton. Something I applaud.

ocdupalais

RichN95 wrote:

OCDuPalais wrote:

Other than beating Armstrong at Courcheval at the Tour in 2005 then winning L-B-L in 2008 then the opening stage in the Tour - and then going on to win countless other classics... unless you mean his wheel sucking happened briefly in the junior ranks?
6th highest ranking of all time on the shonky CyclingRanking.com all time table... hehe... and good job scrolling down the list to find the first rider you think might have been “clean”.

Courheval 2005 - he actually did work on the front (for Mancebo). Still won. That was peak Puerto Valverde.

Otherwise he tends to hide, do the minimum needed and rely on his sprint. He's just a more talented Simon Gerrans.

Now I personally don't think there is anything wrong with this. But he does get portrayed by some as an exciting 'real racer' which is nonsense (although he's had his moments in the last couple of years). But he's probably the most cooly calculating rider in the peloton. Something I applaud.

Was waiting for the Gerrans comparison...
It’s his “cooly calculating” ness that makes him a “real racer”- “cooly calculating” sh!t when everyone else except for about 3 riders are well and truly fooked... in race after race... THAT is what makes him a “real racer”.

ddraver

OCdP - look we've all had a drink mate!

Post ban to...oh...2 years ago he was the Spanish Gerrans. Wheelsucking was his raison d'etre (razón de ser?). We re talking about a man who has somehow convinced Movistar top brass that he's "all in for Qunitana" whilst riding behind him!

DeVlaeminck

He's certainly not an attacking rider, I actually think he'd have won more hilly one day races including the worlds had he been willing to chase the odd attack but he may argue if he chased one he'd be expected to chase the next because people know he has the fastest sprint out of those who can reach the finish of races like Sundays.

I'm not sure about the criticism he doesn't work for the team in grand tours though. Someone claimed that in the Vuelta this year when for me Valverde had clearly launched an early attack as part of a team plan to soften up the opposition.

My main criticism would be he let Rui Costa ride across to Rodriguez in 2013 Worlds where if he'd just marked him I really doubt Costa would have continued dragging Nibali and Valverde across the gap and Rodriguez would have been world champ - pretty sure Costa and Valverde were both Movistar riders so for me that looked like him choosing personal friendship over doing a team job - we can't know but if I was Rodriguez I'd find that hard to forgive.

hanshotfirst

Vino'sGhost wrote:

Pross wrote:

Some over the top comments on here. I've never been Valverde's biggest fan but he served his ban and there's no doubting he's a racer. He respects races and doesn't just turn up to make up the numbers like many.

This is true. And that he battled back from that crash at the tour just over a year ago speaks volumes about his winning mentality

Don't understand how people are bemused by the fact that others don't like Valverde. Like... he's been convicted of doping, denies wrongdoing and is a known wheelsucker. Yes, on the other side of the coin he's a ridiculous racer and his longevity cannot be anything other than admired but surely you can understand why people might not like a certain rider for fairly obvious reasons?

People have a go at Chris Froome because of his gangly arms ffs.

ddraver

hanshotfirst wrote:

People have a go at Chris Froome because of his gangly arms ffs.

hee hee!

I notice Jose Been , who is apparently very concerned about the effect Sky's dominance has on cycling is thoroughly unconcerned about the Dutch Domination effect on womens cycling...The one good thing about events like these is how it exposes the hypocrisy of a bunch of cyclo-twitter...

I try and be vaguely rational about stuff, at least on here, but screw it I'm allowed one guy to "hate"

ocdupalais

Are you still drinking?

ddraver

ocdupalais

hanshotfirst wrote:

Vino'sGhost wrote:

Pross wrote:

Some over the top comments on here. I've never been Valverde's biggest fan but he served his ban and there's no doubting he's a racer. He respects races and doesn't just turn up to make up the numbers like many.

This is true. And that he battled back from that crash at the tour just over a year ago speaks volumes about his winning mentality

Don't understand how people are bemused by the fact that others don't like Valverde. Like... he's been convicted of doping, denies wrongdoing and is a known wheelsucker. Yes, on the other side of the coin he's a ridiculous racer and his longevity cannot be anything other than admired but surely you can understand why people might not like a certain rider for fairly obvious reasons?

People have a go at Chris Froome because of his gangly arms ffs.

I don’t think anyone is bemused by his not total popularity... and I fully applaud disliking riders for a mish mash of reasons that are more emotional than rational (I couldn’t stand Pierre Rolland for ages because of his stupid teeth)... but I think “wheelsucker” is an unfair tag to apply to Valverde. By the same token, the most successful wheelsucker in cycling since 2009 is Mark Cavendish.

kingstongraham

If you're a wheelsucker who doesn't win, then that's a criticism. If you're a wheelsucker who wins, then personally, I think that's something to be admired.

ddraver

...Sprinting is different though innit...

I think the forum is united in hope that Cav comes back and beats Mercx's stage record at the TdF.

But, during his flirtation with the classics, he managed to follow wheels, got a bit of luck and won the Ronde in a sprint we would be dissatisfied...

dish_dash

I'm entertained by Valverde's racing... 8)

craigus89

OCDuPalais wrote:

So Valverde didn’t bend over for us all at the time of his sanction? Free yourself from the shackles of a pious mind and enjoy a brilliant racer!
I make no apologies for the fact that most of the music I like was apparently created under the influence of something - or that I’m still going to find Louis CK funny despite his predilection for getting his winkle out to non-consenting women.
I spent a long time begrudging Valverde’s presence in every race until his magnificent racing wore my grumbling away, like the ocean wears away a sharp little angry uptight pebble...
He did his time.

This pretty much sums up my thoughts about him.

I was going to create a thread about this off the back of this but I don't think it will get anywhere and a lot of the discussion seems to be happening in here.

I only started watching 4-5 years ago so very much post the whole doping era, but there certainly seem to be a huge amount of animosity among cycling fans who experienced that era towards ex-dopers. I don't quite understand it to be honest. Maybe I would if I had experienced my sport being torn to pieces by all these people, but looking back at that era if someone has been done and has served their time - willingly/repentantly or otherwise - then I have no strong feelings about their past.

carbonclem

You cant not admire Valverde's longevity, commitment, attitude and skill. I don't warm to him for the various reasons previously detailed but its all irrellevant armchair stuff.

However, all that said - is anyone who was chuffed to see him win on Sunday 'really' of the opinion that it wouldn't have been better to see Bardet or Woods take the win. Surely either of that pair would have been a much better representative for the stripes next year. In pretty much every way?

ocdupalais

I think it’s a source of continuing entertainment that while Dumoulin was busy coming second in the race for 3rd place, a French rider was busy being first loser yet again. Especially when ASO and UCI seem to be colluding to trademark cycling and the Tour de France continues to dominate the cycling year. It must really irk them.

Vino'sGhost

CarbonClem wrote:

You cant not admire Valverde's longevity, commitment, attitude and skill. I don't warm to him for the various reasons previously detailed but its all irrellevant armchair stuff.

However, all that said - is anyone who was chuffed to see him win on Sunday 'really' of the opinion that it wouldn't have been better to see Bardet or Woods take the win. Surely either of that pair would have been a much better representative for the stripes next year. In pretty much every way?

Its a race not a PC promotion. Whatever next, a man self identifying as a woman entering and winning the womens races?

Honestly, i think the winner is the best representative.

DeVlaeminck

CarbonClem wrote:

You cant not admire Valverde's longevity, commitment, attitude and skill. I don't warm to him for the various reasons previously detailed but its all irrellevant armchair stuff.

However, all that said - is anyone who was chuffed to see him win on Sunday 'really' of the opinion that it wouldn't have been better to see Bardet or Woods take the win. Surely either of that pair would have been a much better representative for the stripes next year. In pretty much every way?

To be honest I'd prefer the world champ to be a real hitter - Sagan, Boonen,Valverde, Cavendish etc - Woods and even Bardet to a lesser extent would cheapen the jersey because they aren't really top level riders . Yes I know not all winners have been huge stars - Costa would be one - but that's just my preference.

carbonclem

DeVlaeminck wrote:

CarbonClem wrote:

You cant not admire Valverde's longevity, commitment, attitude and skill. I don't warm to him for the various reasons previously detailed but its all irrellevant armchair stuff.

However, all that said - is anyone who was chuffed to see him win on Sunday 'really' of the opinion that it wouldn't have been better to see Bardet or Woods take the win. Surely either of that pair would have been a much better representative for the stripes next year. In pretty much every way?

To be honest I'd prefer the world champ to be a real hitter - Sagan, Boonen,Valverde, Cavendish etc - Woods and even Bardet to a lesser extent would cheapen the jersey because they aren't really top level riders . Yes I know not all winners have been huge stars - Costa would be one - but that's just my preference.

Yes, I get that, I was just taking those who were realistically closest.

Second question, should anyone be interested ... would people have preferred to see Moscon win?

ddraver

Over Valverde..?

Yes

(just)

ShutupJens

Not in any way. Both unrepentant but I'd rather not see someone previously banned for racism and violence win, compared to someone banned for doping. Its a shame that those bans weren't longer

hanshotfirst

CarbonClem wrote:

Second question, should anyone be interested ... would people have preferred to see Moscon win?

That's a big old no from me, Clive.

bobmcstuff

Craigus89 wrote:

OCDuPalais wrote:

So Valverde didn’t bend over for us all at the time of his sanction? Free yourself from the shackles of a pious mind and enjoy a brilliant racer!
I make no apologies for the fact that most of the music I like was apparently created under the influence of something - or that I’m still going to find Louis CK funny despite his predilection for getting his winkle out to non-consenting women.
I spent a long time begrudging Valverde’s presence in every race until his magnificent racing wore my grumbling away, like the ocean wears away a sharp little angry uptight pebble...
He did his time.

This pretty much sums up my thoughts about him.

I was going to create a thread about this off the back of this but I don't think it will get anywhere and a lot of the discussion seems to be happening in here.

I only started watching 4-5 years ago so very much post the whole doping era, but there certainly seem to be a huge amount of animosity among cycling fans who experienced that era towards ex-dopers. I don't quite understand it to be honest. Maybe I would if I had experienced my sport being torn to pieces by all these people, but looking back at that era if someone has been done and has served their time - willingly/repentantly or otherwise - then I have no strong feelings about their past.

It's because he has never admitted to the wrongdoing I think. No different to a pre-2013 admission Lance (and he's still pretty much reviled).

On the flipside, plenty of other people and teams were implicated in Puerto and never got any punishment so you can see why he might not feel he needs to own up.

I get the impression it's more or less an Anglo thing as well, I don't think the fans from the continent (latin european countries at least) actually give a toss about the doping.

knedlicky

OCDuPalais wrote:

I think “wheelsucker” is an unfair tag to apply to Valverde.

I wholly agree with OCD; it's never been my impression of Valverde's style - calculating yes, but that's different - and I wonder where this idea came from in the first place. I suspect someone in the Anglo World just threw it out one time, and others took it up because they already disliked the man for some other reason. It gained momentum and so it became 'true' (for some).
I look a lot at French and German cycling websites, including their forums, and I've never noticed in either any wheelsucking accusations made against Valverde.

bobmcstuff wrote:

I get the impression it's more or less an Anglo thing as well, I don't think the fans from the continent (latin european countries at least) actually give a toss about the doping.

Based on what I've seen on French and German cycling websites/forums, I wouldn't say that was totally true – the German ones don't make much of his doping history, but they do say it's surprising that Valverde's win hasn't been so criticised as the Olympic win of Vinokurow, despite them both behaving the same as far as their doping accusations goes, even if they were both clean in their big victories.
My impression from French websites is that they are very introverted - concerned mostly about what their French riders get up to and how they perform, rarely commenting on the rest of the World (but then usually favourably - the roadside venom against Froome/Sky isn't reflected on their cycling websites).

Vino'sGhost

knedlicky wrote:

OCDuPalais wrote:

I think “wheelsucker” is an unfair tag to apply to Valverde.

I wholly agree with OCD; it's never been my impression of Valverde's style - calculating yes, but that's different - and I wonder where this idea came from in the first place. I suspect someone in the Anglo World just threw it out one time, and others took it up because they already disliked the man for some other reason. It gained momentum and so it became 'true' (for some).
I look a lot at French and German cycling websites, including their forums, and I've never noticed in either any wheelsucking accusations made against Valverde.

bobmcstuff wrote:

I get the impression it's more or less an Anglo thing as well, I don't think the fans from the continent (latin european countries at least) actually give a toss about the doping.

Based on what I've seen on French and German cycling websites/forums, I wouldn't say that was totally true – the German ones don't make much of his doping history, but they do say it's surprising that Valverde's win hasn't been so criticised as the Olympic win of Vinokurow, despite them both behaving the same as far as their doping accusations goes, even if they were both clean in their big victories.
My impression from French websites is that they are very introverted - concerned mostly about what their French riders get up to and how they perform, rarely commenting on the rest of the World (but then usually favourably - the roadside venom against Froome/Sky isn't reflected on their cycling websites).

Yes, I’ve always considered that because they’re cycling fans not sky or Anglo fans . Yes he quality of performance being more important than jersey or passport.

hypster

My biggest problem with Valverde is nothing to do with any previous drugs ban but his sudden performances over the last year or so at 37/38 years old. Nothing suspicious about that is there? And please don't troll out Chris Horner winning the Vuelta at 41 again because that sucks also.

There's nothing I admire about Valverde or his style of riding. He constantly maintains he is riding for Nairo Quintana in any race they ride in together but I have never seen ANY evidence of this. This year's Vuelta was a perfect example of this. He's a mealy-mouthed shitbag.