Forum home Road cycling forum The cake stop

Cologne, Hamburg & Stuttgart....

mr_goomr_goo Posts: 3,770
edited March 2016 in The cake stop
Have a read of the article, digest and comment. I am quite surprised this is on the BBC News website, as they normally shy away from any inflammatory news.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35237173

My thoughts are that this is something that Merkel and the other lefty/liberal wrist wringing politicians controlling our lives, should have foreseen. Horse, Bolt, Stable Door springs to mind.
Always be yourself, unless you can be Aaron Rodgers....Then always be Aaron Rodgers.
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Posts

  • ballysmateballysmate Posts: 15,903
    I referenced this story in the Labour/Refugees thread.
    I also posted this link ref Norway.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/20/world/europe/norway-offers-migrants-a-lesson-in-how-to-treat-women.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0

    An extract

    Mr. Kelifa, the African asylum seeker, said he still had a hard time accepting that a wife could accuse her husband of sexual assault. But he added that he had learned how to read previously baffling signals from women who wear short skirts, smile or simply walk alone at night without an escort.

    “Men have weaknesses and when they see someone smiling it is difficult to control,” Mr. Kelifa said, explaining that in his own country, Eritrea, “if someone wants a lady he can just take her and he will not be punished,” at least not by the police.


    Hold your heads and weep.
  • mr_goomr_goo Posts: 3,770
    I referenced this story in the Labour/Refugees thread.
    I also posted this link ref Norway.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/20/world/europe/norway-offers-migrants-a-lesson-in-how-to-treat-women.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0

    An extract

    Mr. Kelifa, the African asylum seeker, said he still had a hard time accepting that a wife could accuse her husband of sexual assault. But he added that he had learned how to read previously baffling signals from women who wear short skirts, smile or simply walk alone at night without an escort.

    “Men have weaknesses and when they see someone smiling it is difficult to control,” Mr. Kelifa said, explaining that in his own country, Eritrea, “if someone wants a lady he can just take her and he will not be punished,” at least not by the police.


    Hold your heads and weep.

    It beggars belief, and just goes to prove that there are many millions in the world who have belief systems and attitudes poles apart from the developed western nations. Yet they are welcomed with open arms in the belief that they will just fit in.
    If the likes of Merkel and Hollande wanted to distance their nations as far from the rise of so called right wing politics ( I would call it common sense in the face overwhelming immigration) then they have made the biggest political faux pas.

    2016 is going to be a watershed in European politics. It will see the rise of attacks by Islamists from within on us Infidels. And will see the rise of attacks by Infidels on Muslims.

    Hell in a hand cart.
    Always be yourself, unless you can be Aaron Rodgers....Then always be Aaron Rodgers.
  • finchyfinchy Posts: 6,686
    So, what are you suggesting? That we should have no immigration? Lower levels of immigration? Better education on the host countries' values for immigrants? Repatriation? Avoid allowing immigrant ghettos to develop?
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 7,787
    We need to make sure that immigrants are better integrated into the societies they move to - how that is done is an open question but all of your suggestions from lower immigration probably have a role to play.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • mr_goomr_goo Posts: 3,770
    We need to make sure that immigrants are better integrated into the societies they move to - how that is done is an open question but all of your suggestions from lower immigration probably have a role to play.

    In regards to the integration, we need to ensure that the society they originate has near enough the same value sets as those in modern western countries. It is stupidly shortsighted to expect asylum seekers/migrants from societies that openly subjugates females, persecutes homosexuals etc, to fit in with a progressive modern country. Plus the numbers involved is getting out of hand. It is not racist in anyway to say these things, it is common sense.
    Always be yourself, unless you can be Aaron Rodgers....Then always be Aaron Rodgers.
  • LookyhereLookyhere Posts: 987
    Obviously the situation in cologne is terrible and cannot be defended.
    as Germany and Sweden have found, they cannot house all these migrants, let alone set up re education clases, pie in the sky.
    Scary thing was german police arrested no one!

    Merkel was a fool to say Germany would welcome 800k BUT these people were coming anyway.
    the vast majority have nothing to do with what happened in Cologne and they ve nothing to return back too either, as if we ve even the ability to do that to failed asylum seekers, at the moment, many are just put on a bus back to Athens...... our con artist of a leader, has allowed 50,000 failed asylum seekers to evade being deported.
    so, how is it even possible to reduce the human tide coming into EU ?
    we cannot address the root cause as EU has no military might to enforce peace in libya or syria, we are not able to work with the russians and the USA isnt going to come to our aid.
    we cannot make countires bordering eu keep them there and we do not, yet, have the stomach to build a sort of iron curtain around EU and armed guards willing to shoot on sight, to keep them out.

    So, for all the rightwing hand wringing, they have no solution, ironic really as its the right that got us into this mess with their gung ho wars.
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 7,787
    unfortunately we have a situation where large sections of the population do not share in the economic prosperity of European countries. That includes many immigrant communities but it is by no means exclusive to them. So what happens is we get sub cultures which are disfunctional and often criminal - in this case the sexual assaults are a mix of that and the extreme sexist culture in which these immigrants originated.

    I agree that huge numbers means integration is difficult but also the lack of social mobility and opportunity plays a big role. That these immigrants are ethnically, linguistically, religiously distinct from the mainstream community is inevitably going to heighten their sense of disadvantage and create a shared culture which will be at odds with what we consider the norm. I mean 1000 men doing this can't be written off as bad individuals any more than doping in cycling was down to individual cheats - it has to be a cultural thing that says this is ok.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 19,064
    - it has to be a cultural thing that says this is ok.
    And therein lies the problem. Overcoming whole cultures.
    They are coming into our culture and have to adapt to that.
    And yes, I do believe it should work both ways.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • RideOnTimeRideOnTime Posts: 4,712
    I referenced this story in the Labour/Refugees thread.
    I also posted this link ref Norway.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/20/world/europe/norway-offers-migrants-a-lesson-in-how-to-treat-women.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0

    An extract

    Mr. Kelifa, the African asylum seeker, said he still had a hard time accepting that a wife could accuse her husband of sexual assault. But he added that he had learned how to read previously baffling signals from women who wear short skirts, smile or simply walk alone at night without an escort.

    “Men have weaknesses and when they see someone smiling it is difficult to control,” Mr. Kelifa said, explaining that in his own country, Eritrea, “if someone wants a lady he can just take her and he will not be punished,” at least not by the police.


    Hold your heads and weep.

    and by contrast

    http://edition.cnn.com/2016/01/05/sport/chris-gayle-sexism-fined/
  • mamba80mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    unfortunately we have a situation where large sections of the population do not share in the economic prosperity of European countries. That includes many immigrant communities but it is by no means exclusive to them. So what happens is we get sub cultures which are disfunctional and often criminal - in this case the sexual assaults are a mix of that and the extreme sexist culture in which these immigrants originated.

    I agree that huge numbers means integration is difficult but also the lack of social mobility and opportunity plays a big role. That these immigrants are ethnically, linguistically, religiously distinct from the mainstream community is inevitably going to heighten their sense of disadvantage and create a shared culture which will be at odds with what we consider the norm. I mean 1000 men doing this can't be written off as bad individuals any more than doping in cycling was down to individual cheats - it has to be a cultural thing that says this is ok.

    Come off it, where in the Koran does it say you can touch up and rape women? they were 1000 bad people, who have zero right to be allowed to stay in europe.
    this appears to be organised criminality, just like east european people trafickers, they do it because they can get away with it.
    as said the telling thing here is that no one was arrested, didnt want to upset their cultrual values? bullsh1t.

    as i ve said before, the numbers coming are too large for any sort of meaningful integration and there needs to be a way of giving refuge to the genuinely oppressed BUT then sending them back to Syria, where ever, when these countries become peaceful once again.
    Unless we send a harsh message that europe is nt going to tolerate this behavior, then millions more economic refugees are going to come to europe.
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 7,787
    unfortunately we have a situation where large sections of the population do not share in the economic prosperity of European countries. That includes many immigrant communities but it is by no means exclusive to them. So what happens is we get sub cultures which are disfunctional and often criminal - in this case the sexual assaults are a mix of that and the extreme sexist culture in which these immigrants originated.

    I agree that huge numbers means integration is difficult but also the lack of social mobility and opportunity plays a big role. That these immigrants are ethnically, linguistically, religiously distinct from the mainstream community is inevitably going to heighten their sense of disadvantage and create a shared culture which will be at odds with what we consider the norm. I mean 1000 men doing this can't be written off as bad individuals any more than doping in cycling was down to individual cheats - it has to be a cultural thing that says this is ok.

    Come off it, where in the Koran does it say you can touch up and rape women? they were 1000 bad people, who have zero right to be allowed to stay in europe.
    this appears to be organised criminality, just like east european people trafickers, they do it because they can get away with it.
    as said the telling thing here is that no one was arrested, didnt want to upset their cultrual values? bullsh1t.

    as i ve said before, the numbers coming are too large for any sort of meaningful integration and there needs to be a way of giving refuge to the genuinely oppressed BUT then sending them back to Syria, where ever, when these countries become peaceful once again.
    Unless we send a harsh message that europe is nt going to tolerate this behavior, then millions more economic refugees are going to come to europe.

    I am not sure why you say bullshit because I agree with you to a large extent. I'm saying these aren't just 1000 bad people, arrest them and problem solved, it's a wider cultural phenomenon...but there is also an economic element to it.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • mamba80mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    No, its criminality, no more and no less, they took advantage of the situation and now, the cultrural flag is be used as an excuse for their behavior and the lack of response by the police, that is the BS.

    Many of these people have not been in germany long enough to live in ghettos and be suffering economic hardship, if they are genuine and fleeing death and destruction, then they'd be trying their utmost to be peaceable and fit in, not going on the lash and attacking women.
  • finchyfinchy Posts: 6,686
    There seems to be a bit of an assumption on here and the Syria thread that these men were Syrian refugees, yet the only thing we know about them is that their appearance has been described as "North African/Arabic". Germany had a sizeable Arabic and Turkish population long before the Syrian civil war, how do we know that these people are Syrian refugees, rather than economic migrants from any of the other countries with medium-dark brown skin?
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 60,940 Lives Here
    That's why it's worth waiting for the investigation to finish.

    Worth finding out who it was, how it was organised and what the motives were.

    With these things it's easy to slip into prejudiced chat, especially with confirmation bias. It may well be a cultural thing but it also may not be. You just don't know.

    Better off waiting, letting the rozzers investigate and then consider it.

    Strong policing of this kind of thing is part & parcel of integration.

    Arguably tricky districts in Belgium were not helped by missing police attention which let certain illegal behaviour flourish (like discriminating against non-immigrant residents etc).
  • earthearth Posts: 934
    I referenced this story in the Labour/Refugees thread.
    I also posted this link ref Norway.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/20/world/europe/norway-offers-migrants-a-lesson-in-how-to-treat-women.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0

    An extract

    Mr. Kelifa, the African asylum seeker, said he still had a hard time accepting that a wife could accuse her husband of sexual assault. But he added that he had learned how to read previously baffling signals from women who wear short skirts, smile or simply walk alone at night without an escort.

    “Men have weaknesses and when they see someone smiling it is difficult to control,” Mr. Kelifa said, explaining that in his own country, Eritrea, “if someone wants a lady he can just take her and he will not be punished,” at least not by the police.


    Hold your heads and weep.

    It beggars belief, and just goes to prove that there are many millions in the world who have belief systems and attitudes poles apart from the developed western nations. Yet they are welcomed with open arms in the belief that they will just fit in.
    If the likes of Merkel and Hollande wanted to distance their nations as far from the rise of so called right wing politics ( I would call it common sense in the face overwhelming immigration) then they have made the biggest political faux pas.

    2016 is going to be a watershed in European politics. It will see the rise of attacks by Islamists from within on us Infidels. And will see the rise of attacks by Infidels on Muslims.

    Hell in a hand cart.

    Do you believe those who are not Muslim are infidels or are you just using their description? I would have used a more factual and less judgmental word.

    I think what we are experiencing is Newtons third law: For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. For decades politicians have been forcing conflicting policies onto their nations and ignoring reasonable objections. If they ignore the reasonable then only the unreasonable are left.
  • mamba80mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    That's why it's worth waiting for the investigation to finish.

    Worth finding out who it was, how it was organised and what the motives were.

    With these things it's easy to slip into prejudiced chat, especially with confirmation bias. It may well be a cultural thing but it also may not be. You just don't know.

    Better off waiting, letting the rozzers investigate and then consider it.
    .

    the police have no idea who carried out these attacks as they did not Police the area at the time, other than they say 1000 young men with arab or n.african appearance were in Cologne.

    i dont think it is unreasonable to call these acts criminal, there is no cultrural excuse for getting p1ssed and attacking women, not only sexual assault but robbery and one of rape too, again nothing cultural there either.

    either way, immigrants living germany know the law and new arrivals if genuine would nt behave in this way.
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 7,787
    No, its criminality, no more and no less, they took advantage of the situation and now, the cultrural flag is be used as an excuse for their behavior and the lack of response by the police, that is the BS.

    Many of these people have not been in germany long enough to live in ghettos and be suffering economic hardship, if they are genuine and fleeing death and destruction, then they'd be trying their utmost to be peaceable and fit in, not going on the lash and attacking women.

    Well yes it is criminality I doubt anyone would deny that - it's important to try and understand what leads to criminality though otherwise how to you prevent it ? If we keep sticking tens of thousands of immigrants into ghettos and leaving them with poor economic prospects these kind of problems will only get worse.

    That in no way excuses what they are doing it just points out the folly of letting huge numbers in in the first place. Your view, that it is criminality no more no less is really just what the German authorities are saying - that we can't draw any conclusions about this just because all the perpetrators are of a similar background which is the real bullshit here.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • ballysmateballysmate Posts: 15,903
    I referenced this story in the Labour/Refugees thread.
    I also posted this link ref Norway.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/20/world/europe/norway-offers-migrants-a-lesson-in-how-to-treat-women.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0

    An extract

    Mr. Kelifa, the African asylum seeker, said he still had a hard time accepting that a wife could accuse her husband of sexual assault. But he added that he had learned how to read previously baffling signals from women who wear short skirts, smile or simply walk alone at night without an escort.

    “Men have weaknesses and when they see someone smiling it is difficult to control,” Mr. Kelifa said, explaining that in his own country, Eritrea, “if someone wants a lady he can just take her and he will not be punished,” at least not by the police.


    Hold your heads and weep.

    and by contrast

    http://edition.cnn.com/2016/01/05/sport/chris-gayle-sexism-fined/

    Seriously? You comparing the two? :shock:
  • BobbinogsBobbinogs Posts: 4,841
    I must admit that comparison between the two stories had me baffled too. If asking a woman if you can buy her a drink is classed as a comparable example of sexist behaviour between the societies then things ain't so bad over here (although I do think the Gayle thing was a little inappropriate).
  • floreriderflorerider Posts: 1,112
    When I have been in Saudi and Iran, to name the 2 leading monotheist Islamic states, I have been careful to obey their rules and codes, indeed the consequences of not doing so would have been quite extreme, even for a minor transgression. No latitude for cultural differences allowed. Pure equality in the eye of the law.

    However, still do not see that the attitude to allowing our laws and codes to be broken, and letting it go as a consequence of "cultural respect" or other such nonsense, is anything more than patronising or racist. A non racist society would treat all law breakers equally. So how did we get to a position of such institutional racism that allows this sort of thing to be OK if perpetuated by an "ethnic" group, but not by an indiginous "white" one?
  • We do in fact apply a similar principle in law that ignorance of the law is no excuse (or defence). The principle is Roman in origin (I think). As we (the British) helped codify many of the laws of Germany after WW2 I would be surprised if they do not have similar.
    Perhaps, with Germany being a fairly law-abiding place, the few cops on duty were not expecting what sounds like quite widespread disorder.
    Ecrasez l’infame
  • floreriderflorerider Posts: 1,112
    We do in fact apply a similar principle in law that ignorance of the law is no excuse (or defence). The principle is Roman in origin (I think). As we (the British) helped codify many of the laws of Germany after WW2 I would be surprised if they do not have similar.
    Perhaps, with Germany being a fairly law-abiding place, the few cops on duty were not expecting what sounds like quite widespread disorder.

    Few cops on duty? Not my general observation in Hamburg in particular. I suspect however that the heavy hand of history is at play and the German police are forever looking over their shoulders as Germany is never allowed to move on to dealing with this century's issues rather than reflecting on last century's. Hence the difference is response to right wing agitation to this type of law breaking.
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 7,787
    Yet I seem to remember us being told that the influx of migrants was not young and male - the BBC went out of its way to prove it as every picture of migrants seemed to be a family or women with kids - the idea that the people coming are young male primarily economic migrants was a right wing fantasy. That nice man David Miliband said we should be taking many more and he should know as he's paid the best part of half a million a year by a "charity" to talk about it.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 19,064
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • Telegraph reporting that a 'translation page' was found on one of the offenders with the following useful Arabic to German phrases;

    'You have beautiful breasts'

    'I want to f**k you"

    'I will kill you'

    And I was happy to have learnt, 'Dos cervezas por favor'.....
  • mamba80mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    i see Merkel is considering getting tough with asylum seekers.... woo wee! they must all be fixing those boats in Greece and heading back to Turkey.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35259224

    she is, along with other EU leaders, a complete idiot, talk about closing the the stable door..... but it will be more talk and no action, laws within eurpe take an age to pass and with the human rights act and the difficulty in nowing where to deport too, these criminals will be able to do as they like with impunity.

    sorry Rick but i do see the connection with our EU membership and dangerous immigration policies that do not work, either in protecting genuine refugees or stopping us becoming a dustbin for the worlds poor, if we cannot have strong external borders (a Schengen requirement) and the means to deport those who are allowed in, then yes, for all the good the EU does, it will fail and potentially destroy europe.
  • ballysmateballysmate Posts: 15,903
    i see Merkel is considering getting tough with asylum seekers.... woo wee! they must all be fixing those boats in Greece and heading back to Turkey.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35259224

    she is, along with other EU leaders, a complete idiot, talk about closing the the stable door..... but it will be more talk and no action, laws within eurpe take an age to pass and with the human rights act and the difficulty in nowing where to deport too, these criminals will be able to do as they like with impunity.

    sorry Rick but i do see the connection with our EU membership and dangerous immigration policies that do not work, either in protecting genuine refugees or stopping us becoming a dustbin for the worlds poor, if we cannot have strong external borders (a Schengen requirement) and the means to deport those who are allowed in, then yes, for all the good the EU does, it will fail and potentially destroy europe.


    Hold the front page!!!



    Bally agrees with Mamba. :lol:
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 60,940 Lives Here
    UK isn't part of Schengen anyway.

    If you're a refugee from outside of the EU ( currently the refugees all are) none of the EU free movement of labour applies.

    Can someone explain to me what all this refugee stuff has to do with being part of th EU?

    So far I see lots of complaints about non-EU immigration (which has not in to do with the EU) and very little about Europeans immigrating (like French and Poles etc).
  • If you're a refugee from outside of the EU ( currently the refugees all are) none of the EU free movement of labour applies.

    Exactly. So what are they all going to do for jobs? Or is it benefits ad infinitum?

    In France, it's hard enough for a Brit or a German to be able to work, so protectionist are the French. (A tree surgeon friend of mine had to sell up and go back to the UK because his heaps of UK training and qualifications weren't acceptable to the French).

    So any chance of a non-EU immigrant working in France any time soon, is pie in the sky I'm afraid.
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