The demise of Campagnolo in the world tour
Comments
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Frame building is one of the areas did strongly look to however I'd look at it in a different way to most and for me it would need some money behind it. One man with the knowledge of the bike design and fitting process and a good industrial welder. Anyone good welder who is time served will have the speed and knowledge that will take a builder decades to gain. The old story's of the Italian builders knocking out a frame a day isn't folk law, with this method I'd be unhappy with less than 700 frames a year as a max output if the work is there, I'd also out source painting. It still amazes me that people who buy 2k bikes aren't buying custom steel with 105 and good hand built wheels as it still can be done.
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Maybe we can set a trend, by trolling a Shimano Vs Campagnolo thread into something else...
There are still workshops that work on a "frame a day" model... Vetta in Italy, for instance, never heard a bad word about their frames, which I do believe are also called Condor in the UK, but I have no evidence for that.
700 Euro for a bespoke frame, not a bad price!
I tend to agree the bike-fit thing is fashion with very little "hard science" behind and anyone will be able to replicate the model pretty soon... at least for the non-injured cyclist... it also remains to be seen whether retul have the necessary background to help the injured cyclist, but let's assume so.
I don't think I am alone in that I never find what I want in the off the peg market and the bespoke is not for my pockets, so there is a gap in the market, for someone who wants a frame of a given colour scheme, geometry and wants it now-ish at < 1000 Poundsleft the forum March 20230 -
Bob Jacksons in Leeds is close to the model I'd look at. Got fitted around 5 years back for a frame but had to cancel due to delays on the Reynolds 953 tubing and that was after around 10 months, their frames are all sub 1000 unless you got stainless.
On the fitting I'd like to see what Canyon and Rose do to develop the remote fit side as they stand the most to gaineating parmos since 1981
Canyon Ultimate CF SLX Aero 09
Cervelo P5 EPS
www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=40044&t=130387990 -
Bob Jacksons in Leeds is close to the model I'd look at. Got fitted around 5 years back for a frame but had to cancel due to delays on the Reynolds 953 tubing and that was after around 10 months, their frames are all sub 1000 unless you got stainless.
On the fitting I'd like to see what Canyon and Rose do to develop the remote fit side as they stand the most to gain
Only problem I see is that Bob Jackson's frames are stuck in 1989... all I have seen are lugged construction. A couple of years back the guys at Shand were selling bespoke disc CX frames for < 1000, which I thought was a good price... but now the sloater is 1500... between that and the Kaffenback I just picked up for 10% of the price I am not sure the difference is that muchleft the forum March 20230 -
Jacksons website is prehistoric however when I went they still had the shop under the factory it seems they binned that and only have the factory. My frame was going to be fillet blazed and they did internal rear brake option so they are not as bad as the website would make it look. They are pretty traditional but not as bad as the website would have you believe.eating parmos since 1981
Canyon Ultimate CF SLX Aero 09
Cervelo P5 EPS
www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=40044&t=130387990 -
About to make the switch from an ultegra/fsa mix to campag. Would love the SR but I think I could only afford chorus. I have a bianchi sempre pro. Please tell me I won't regret it! I want to properly deck it out with campag wheels as well.0
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About to make the switch from an ultegra/fsa mix to campag. Would love the SR but I think I could only afford chorus. I have a bianchi sempre pro. Please tell me I won't regret it! I want to properly deck it out with campag wheels as well.
Chorus is excellent. It will take a few miles to bed in and once it does, it will be smooth as silk. Apart from the odd thing like Ceramic Jockey wheel bearings, ceramic BB bearings and a few grams, it's as good as R or SR.seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
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Hard times ahead for the LBS which is for the most part is us the customers fault which is stupid as we the customer has the most to lose.
Yet within 6 miles of my house I can think of 5 new bike shops that have opened in the last 5-6 years all but one of which remain open, that is on top of several repairs only oerations some mobile some with premises. The long established shop near me must be doing ok as their kids go to private school and from what I hear at least two of the other biggish shops locally are doing decent business.
Is my town an exception in having more bike shops now than ten years ago?[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
About to make the switch from an ultegra/fsa mix to campag. Would love the SR but I think I could only afford chorus. I have a bianchi sempre pro. Please tell me I won't regret it! I want to properly deck it out with campag wheels as well.
Chorus is excellent. It will take a few miles to bed in and once it does, it will be smooth as silk. Apart from the odd thing like Ceramic Jockey wheel bearings, ceramic BB bearings and a few grams, it's as good as R or SR.
I've got 2010 Chorus on my best bike and it's like brand new, don't know why anyone would need anyting "better" or more...but I have to admit that I've been looking at 2015 Chorus with the odd pang of desire.0 -
Frame building is one of the areas did strongly look to however I'd look at it in a different way to most and for me it would need some money behind it. One man with the knowledge of the bike design and fitting process and a good industrial welder. Anyone good welder who is time served will have the speed and knowledge that will take a builder decades to gain. The old story's of the Italian builders knocking out a frame a day isn't folk law, with this method I'd be unhappy with less than 700 frames a year as a max output if the work is there, I'd also out source painting. It still amazes me that people who buy 2k bikes aren't buying custom steel with 105 and good hand built wheels as it still can be done.
.
Maybe we can set a trend, by trolling a Shimano Vs Campagnolo thread into something else...
There are still workshops that work on a "frame a day" model... Vetta in Italy, for instance, never heard a bad word about their frames, which I do believe are also called Condor in the UK, but I have no evidence for that.
700 Euro for a bespoke frame, not a bad price!
I tend to agree the bike-fit thing is fashion with very little "hard science" behind and anyone will be able to replicate the model pretty soon... at least for the non-injured cyclist... it also remains to be seen whether retul have the necessary background to help the injured cyclist, but let's assume so.
I don't think I am alone in that I never find what I want in the off the peg market and the bespoke is not for my pockets, so there is a gap in the market, for someone who wants a frame of a given colour scheme, geometry and wants it now-ish at < 1000 Pounds
That used to be Orbea's business model about 15 years ago."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19771402#p19771402]disgruntledgoat[/url] wrote:
That used to be Orbea's business model about 15 years ago.
I don't know what you are talking about, but they made a name for themselves, so maybe it wasn't a flawed model, whichever they used.
My point is that there is a demand for reasonably priced bespoke. There are artisans out there who do it, but while they are good at brazing, they are less good at communicating what they do. Many frame builders have websites which are 20 years old and others only exist on Facebook/Twitter.
Making a site is not difficult, it takes roughly a couple of hours using a Wordpress template... maybe a bit more if one wants "buy now" add-onsleft the forum March 20230 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19771402#p19771402]disgruntledgoat[/url] wrote:
That used to be Orbea's business model about 15 years ago.
I don't know what you are talking about, but they made a name for themselves, so maybe it wasn't a flawed model, whichever they used.
My point is that there is a demand for reasonably priced bespoke. There are artisans out there who do it, but while they are good at brazing, they are less good at communicating what they do. Many frame builders have websites which are 20 years old and others only exist on Facebook/Twitter.
Making a site is not difficult, it takes roughly a couple of hours using a Wordpress template... maybe a bit more if one wants "buy now" add-ons
I was agreeing with you"In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
To counterbalance that...I'm going to stick my neck out here.
Campag has far better durability than Shimano. Whilst the starting price may be an incentive, the long term is that you will be replacing Shimano bits more frequently. Whether this justifies the price difference, I do not know. The old adage is still true: Campag wears in and Shimano wears out.
Being reasonably handy, a few friends of mine come with their bikes for me to sort. Of 5, 4 ride Shimano and 1 rides a Ribble with Centaur. The Centaur is more reliable than any of the other 4, which are varying shades of Shimano, the top being Ultegra. I rarely do anything to the Centaur.
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I bought my Record 10 in 2010. I have replaced chains, jockey wheels, cassettes and chain rings. Never touched the BB bearings or Ergo levers. The rear and front mech pins/axles are still like new; no play. So a gruppo costing £1k spread over 5 years and counting?
My bike has an Ultegra groupset with FSA chainrings, bought five or six years ago. I've replaced the chain a few times (now use KMCs) and it's just about to get its third cassette; the first was changed for ratios rather than worn out. The jockey wheels are original, so are the chainrings. The mechs have had no maintenance other than cleaning and I've never done anything with the shifters except replace the cables. The BB was regreased to fix a problem that turned out to be a loose crank - the only fault I've had with the groupset. I'm even still using the original Ultegra brake blocks. It's done 14,000-odd miles in a variety of weather and I'm not a stickler for maintenance.
I tried SRAM once, on a test ride of an expensive Scott, and thought the double-tap was odd. I'm sure I'd have got used to it in time, although a clubmate had a SRAM groupset that was made of cheese and went back to Tiagra before long.
I also tried Campag on a Bianchi test ride and reminded me of my old Sora with a thumb lever. That was enough to turn me off the brand. It's just personal preference. I've always had Shimano on my bikes (except Weinmann and Sachs Heuer back in the day) and see no reason to change.
But all the time there are people around like the guy in my club who has to walk up hills and has an excuse for every occasion but loves artisan brands, I'm sure Campag will survive.0 -
To counterbalance that...I'm going to stick my neck out here.
Campag has far better durability than Shimano. Whilst the starting price may be an incentive, the long term is that you will be replacing Shimano bits more frequently. Whether this justifies the price difference, I do not know. The old adage is still true: Campag wears in and Shimano wears out.
Being reasonably handy, a few friends of mine come with their bikes for me to sort. Of 5, 4 ride Shimano and 1 rides a Ribble with Centaur. The Centaur is more reliable than any of the other 4, which are varying shades of Shimano, the top being Ultegra. I rarely do anything to the Centaur.
...
I bought my Record 10 in 2010. I have replaced chains, jockey wheels, cassettes and chain rings. Never touched the BB bearings or Ergo levers. The rear and front mech pins/axles are still like new; no play. So a gruppo costing £1k spread over 5 years and counting?
My bike has an Ultegra groupset with FSA chainrings, bought five or six years ago. I've replaced the chain a few times (now use KMCs) and it's just about to get its third cassette; the first was changed for ratios rather than worn out. The jockey wheels are original, so are the chainrings. The mechs have had no maintenance other than cleaning and I've never done anything with the shifters except replace the cables. The BB was regreased to fix a problem that turned out to be a loose crank - the only fault I've had with the groupset. I'm even still using the original Ultegra brake blocks. It's done 14,000-odd miles in a variety of weather and I'm not a stickler for maintenance.
I tried SRAM once, on a test ride of an expensive Scott, and thought the double-tap was odd. I'm sure I'd have got used to it in time, although a clubmate had a SRAM groupset that was made of cheese and went back to Tiagra before long.
I also tried Campag on a Bianchi test ride and reminded me of my old Sora with a thumb lever. That was enough to turn me off the brand. It's just personal preference. I've always had Shimano on my bikes (except Weinmann and Sachs Heuer back in the day) and see no reason to change.
But all the time there are people around like the guy in my club who has to walk up hills and has an excuse for every occasion but loves artisan brands, I'm sure Campag will survive.
14,000 miles from a pair of brake blocks?! :shock:
I have had a Shimano equipped bike for over 20 years. It still has original rear mech and rear shifter. All of the other parts have eventually needed to be replaced. Interestingly, aftere the original parts had worn out (after between 15 and 20 years) their replacements seem to last more like two to three years. Based on this massively unscientific research, i would say that Shimano is a lot less durable than it used to be.0 -
To be fair, they are pretty thin now. I bought a new pair quite a while ago but the old ones still work OK so I haven't got around to changing them. A lot of my riding is done on flattish open roads and, being slow and only 70kg, I'm not particularly hard on brakes. The rims are still in good shape too.14,000 miles from a pair of brake blocks?! :shock:
It will be interesting to see how long the replacements last, although I can't remember now whether they're Shimano again or something else like SwissStops.0
