98% 0f 75% vote to strike

finchy

Good job that left-wingers have been a bit less accepting of unfairness in the past, 'cos if it had been left to conservatives, we'd still be grovelling and snivelling to our lords and masters.

BelgianBeerGeek

Yep, that's pretty clear. I know my place. End of thread?

Stevo_666

finchy wrote:

Good job that left-wingers have been a bit less accepting of unfairness in the past, 'cos if it had been left to conservatives, we'd still be grovelling and snivelling to our lords and masters.

The old feudal system went well before Labour stuck its oar in.

Although I knew I'd seen you before somewhere
https://youtu.be/GS_1bzaj2fw

finchy

Labour weren't the first lefties in Britain.

Stevo_666

finchy wrote:

Labour weren't the first lefties in Britain.

Although at this rate they could be the last.

mulletmaster

Back on topic the second strike has been postponed due to BMA willingness to go back to the negotiating table once again.
Cutting through all the crap and spin the current proposals represent a effectively huge pay cut for 99% of junior doctors, those on a 'banded rota'. That combined with deregulation of maximal working hours safeguards and several other severely negative clauses.

Nobody from the BMA came to the table campaging for more money, despite what the Murdoch empire is spewing. I've never known industrial action over a pay dispute where the striking party were willing to accept a long established status quo rather than actively seeking more remuneration.

I've voted Tory all my days but honestly on here how many people would accept a 30+% take home pay cut plus being told that Saturday at 7am or 9.59pm suddenly becomes 'normal working hours'? Plus you will now have to accept working more hours per week than the EU consider safe and legal? Any other profession would consider the above laughable.

FatTed

Mr Hunt seems to want a 24/7 NHS for routine operations and patient care. No country in the world has this. The NHS already provides 24/7 emergency care. Perhaps if the UK funded the NHS to the same level as the rest of the EU then perhaps the NHS may be able to provide the care patients and medical/nursing staff want.

vimfuego

Isn't the NHS the world's 5th largest employer? That's going to cost a bit.

mamba80

vimfuego wrote:

Isn't the NHS the world's 5th largest employer? That's going to cost a bit.

i wouldnt worry about that, the Tories have p1ssed off Teachers now and they are now leaving UK for decent pay and conditions, junior Doc's will soon be following plus newly trained dentists (they will be on this contract too)

and its not just the new trained either.

http://www.theguardian.com/education/20 ... -inspector
Offsteds answer is comical.... make them contractually stay in UK for a few years.... absolutely guaranteeing less will train as teachers and that once they have finished this enforced stay they will leave.

win win as Government will now have a lower pay bill and it wont effect them or the wealthy as they ll be all in the well paid private sector.

vimfuego

Its not just the Tories - my sister is primary school teacher & "the f$%*ing government" has been p1ssing them off for several years with SATS, curriculum changes & general meddling ("Education education education eh Tony?). Same story as the NHS if you ask me - too much political interference over the years, so focus is on targets and league tables that give administrators the wrong incentives & focus, rather than on letting medical & education professionals apply some common sense to delivering front line services. Times have also changed so the system has to change also - which invariably means increased cost, so it would be nice if the cost went to the right places. As it is ultimately us that fund the NHS including the exponentially increasing cost of providing pensions for dead wood etc it is only right that it should be run as efficiently as possible (note to the swivel eyed left - "most efficient" does not equal "cheapest" & it's not a "race to the bottom" on pensions, it's economic reality. Sure you want to protect your position...at everyone else's expense....just like those greedy private sector corporate fat cats eh)

Incidentally though, it is a staggering figure - 5th largest employer in the world. Think about that. They're not far behind the Chinese Red Army FFS.

Sod this, why am I not out riding my bike......?
I'm off for a spin then. have a good weekend.

ballysmate

Ballysmate wrote:

I am not saying docs should be underpaid. In fact I'm saying the opposite. They should be on a salary that reflects their responsibility BUT do away with enhanced pay for unsocial hours. That way, cover can be rostered in respect of need, not load staff in respect to saving cost.

I posted this 3 months ago and it remains my view. The BMA agrees that the present contract isn't fit for purpose apparently and the only sticking point appears to be the out of hours pay.

I also posted

There needs to be provision whereby weekend cover is not so much more expensive than cover Mon - Friday.
A rise of 11% has been offered but this is less than the minimum 14.9% that the Dr and Dentist review body recommended.
I understand the doctors anger and say without reservation that they deserve a fair return for their commitment and I hope the money is found to satisfy them.. I don't believe a strike is necessarily in anyone's interests. THere you go, I said they deserve a decent rise.
As I said, the dispute is about money, the government is trying to save it and the docs don't want it to be at their expense. Don't let's pretend otherwise.

I still hope the extra 3.9% can be found.

rick_chasey

They don't have a history of striking.

Generally a strike means there's been a serious failure in the negotiation process.

Would be worth looking into where and why that failure occurred.

pblakeney

Find a striking doctor who is concerned about the wages?
Their gripe is the hours and rotas.
You cannot increase services with the same personnel without increasing hours.

ballysmate

From that well known pillar of support for the Tories, The Guardian.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2016 ... ent-failed

mamba80

Ballysmate wrote:

From that well known pillar of support for the Tories, The Guardian.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2016 ... ent-failed

Cant see that piece is anti or pro jnr Doc's? just seems to post some facts - what surprised me was after 6 years they only earn 47k, thats nothing for debts of perhaps 60k + and years of very hard study.

Bottom line is that the research into higher deaths rates - at w/e's - is being reassessed and in any case if you dont have extra all the other staff in a hospital then how do u get a 7 day week nhs????

also, if you ve more docs' workin on a sat/sun then you must either have less working on the other 5 days OR they are working longer hours? which is their big bug bear!!

But really with hospitals running huge deficits, lack of nursing staff, over spends on agency workers and mental health care scandals, why are the Tories doing this?

Get 5 day a week nhs working well, then improve it.

yes agree on the teachers, my sis is a fantastic dedicated teacher but has finally had enough of all the interference in her job - by people who know nothing about teaching - and has quit, she is going into the private sector.

peterbob

I know little about it but think its an hours and workload issue related to a poll on this forum.

ballysmate

mamba80 wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

From that well known pillar of support for the Tories, The Guardian.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2016 ... ent-failed

Cant see that piece is anti or pro jnr Doc's? just seems to post some facts - what surprised me was after 6 years they only earn 47k, thats nothing for debts of perhaps 60k + and years of very hard study.

Bottom line is that the research into higher deaths rates - at w/e's - is being reassessed and in any case if you dont have extra all the other staff in a hospital then how do u get a 7 day week nhs????

also, if you ve more docs' workin on a sat/sun then you must either have less working on the other 5 days OR they are working longer hours? which is their big bug bear!!

But really with hospitals running huge deficits, lack of nursing staff, over spends on agency workers and mental health care scandals, why are the Tories doing this?

Get 5 day a week nhs working well, then improve it.

yes agree on the teachers, my sis is a fantastic dedicated teacher but has finally had enough of all the interference in her job - by people who know nothing about teaching - and has quit, she is going into the private sector.

Yes facts. Remember them?

Just showing that the dispute is about the MONEY, not the docs being concerned about patient safety.

pblakeney

Ballysmate wrote:

Yes facts. Remember them?

Just showing that the dispute is about the MONEY, not the docs being concerned about patient safety.

Exactly. Sir David Dalton, administrator.
Try asking a doctor.

ballysmate

PBlakeney wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Yes facts. Remember them?

Just showing that the dispute is about the MONEY, not the docs being concerned about patient safety.

Exactly. Sir David Dalton, administrator.
Try asking a doctor.

The article wasn't written by Dalton was it?

He is mentioned in the article though


Sir David Dalton of NHS Employers – he is chief executive of the Salford Royal NHS Foundation trust – who was lead negotiator, offered on 9 February to “move significantly further” than the previous offer. Junior doctors who worked more than one in four weekends would get 30% extra on basic pay for the Saturday.

pblakeney

Ballysmate wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Yes facts. Remember them?

Just showing that the dispute is about the MONEY, not the docs being concerned about patient safety.

Exactly. Sir David Dalton, administrator.
Try asking a doctor.

The article wasn't written by Dalton was it?

He is mentioned in the article though


Sir David Dalton of NHS Employers – he is chief executive of the Salford Royal NHS Foundation trust – who was lead negotiator, offered on 9 February to “move significantly further” than the previous offer. Junior doctors who worked more than one in four weekends would get 30% extra on basic pay for the Saturday.

Trying to hit a moving target. The report has changed significantly.
Who said it was about money?

ballysmate

PBlakeney wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Yes facts. Remember them?

Just showing that the dispute is about the MONEY, not the docs being concerned about patient safety.

Exactly. Sir David Dalton, administrator.
Try asking a doctor.

The article wasn't written by Dalton was it?

He is mentioned in the article though


Sir David Dalton of NHS Employers – he is chief executive of the Salford Royal NHS Foundation trust – who was lead negotiator, offered on 9 February to “move significantly further” than the previous offer. Junior doctors who worked more than one in four weekends would get 30% extra on basic pay for the Saturday.

Trying to hit a moving target. The report has changed significantly.
Who said it was about money?[/quote]

The author of the article.

What caused the negotiations between the government and junior doctors to break down and the new contract to be imposed?
The sticking point, in the end, was Saturday working. Junior doctors often work at weekends, but are paid a premium rate on Saturdays under the present contract. The government, which has a manifesto pledge to deliver seven-day working in the NHS, wants Saturday to be reimbursed as any other day. Normal working hours under the new contract will be 7am to 9pm between Monday and Friday, and 7am to 5pm on Saturdays. For hours worked within that “plain time”, doctors would be paid at the basic rate. There were other issues that needed finalising, but Saturday working was the key disagreement. The premium rate for Sunday working remains.

Was there any attempt to compromise?
Sir David Dalton of NHS Employers – he is chief executive of the Salford Royal NHS Foundation trust – who was lead negotiator, offered on 9 February to “move significantly further” than the previous offer. Junior doctors who worked more than one in four weekends would get 30% extra on basic pay for the Saturday. That would apply to more than half of all junior doctors, he said. Under the previous offer, only 15% of junior doctors would have been paid at a higher rate. But the British Medical Association said it was unfair – junior doctors who regularly work Saturdays on one in five weekends, for instance, would not get extra pay. They reminded Dalton that they had also compromised, offering a reduced rate of basic pay in return for a higher rate for “unsocial hours” on Saturdays, which would have been cost-neutral overall

Is this about working hours and patient safety?
No – although those things have been an important part of the contract discussions. Junior doctors often work very long hours, in excess of the 48-hour European working time directive. The new contract will give junior doctors double pay if they work more than 48 hours on average over 26 weeks, or more than 72 hours in a single week. Their employer will also be fined the same amount by a “guardian”, a new role to be introduced by every employer by August to protect staff against working excessively long and unsafe hours.


As Mamba pointed out, the article wasn't in support or attacking the docs position, it was just a statement of facts.

pblakeney

Ballysmate wrote:

Stuff

Ah, so not a doctor then?

jawooga

Tories treat the public sector with contempt, impose contractual changes that they wouldn't allow the private sector to do, and change the law if they have to. For a group of people who preach personal responsibility, they 'eat none of their own shit', and exhibit no sense of taking responsibility. Cameron showed his smug, bullying colours at PMQs this week with his proper suit jibe.

rick_chasey

Why is Drs striking over pay surprising or a bad thing Bally? Or have I misunderstood?

Jez mon

Rick Chasey wrote:

Why is Drs striking over pay surprising or a bad thing Bally? Or have I misunderstood?

Its to make them look selfish. Nevermind the fact that if doctors conditions are poor then it's gonna be harder and harder to retain doctors. That's gonna make a difference to patient safety anyway in the long term.

Plus the analysis on this weekend death stuff is totally flawed by most accounts.

ballysmate

Rick Chasey wrote:

Why is Drs striking over pay surprising or a bad thing Bally? Or have I misunderstood?

Not surprising at all. I said on page 1 that it was about the money, and repeated since. I have also stated that they should be paid a salary reflecting their responsibility.
The strike has been justified by doctors and BMA on TV, radio and in print, as being about patient safety. I just don't think that to be the case.

Edit. On this page, 2 contributors to the thread have said the dispute is about hours and rotas not money. I was just reiterating my view that it is about the money

rick_chasey

Ballysmate wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Why is Drs striking over pay surprising or a bad thing Bally? Or have I misunderstood?

Not surprising at all. I said on page 1 that it was about the money, and repeated since. I have also stated that they should be paid a salary reflecting their responsibility.
The strike has been justified by doctors and BMA on TV, radio and in print, as being about patient safety. I just don't think that to be the case.

Don't think they're mutually exclusive.

ballysmate

Rick Chasey wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Why is Drs striking over pay surprising or a bad thing Bally? Or have I misunderstood?

Not surprising at all. I said on page 1 that it was about the money, and repeated since. I have also stated that they should be paid a salary reflecting their responsibility.
The strike has been justified by doctors and BMA on TV, radio and in print, as being about patient safety. I just don't think that to be the case.

Don't think they're mutually exclusive.

But the sole sticking point to the ending of the dispute appears to be the money on offer for working weekends. All the rest of the package appears to have been accepted. If the money was increased, I'm sure the BMA's safety concerns would evaporate.

FatTed

Ballsy, I think it would take a lot of money for that to happen. Not many people wish to work 3 weekends in a row. You can not have the same number of people working two more days a week and have them working the same number of hours as they do now. Or you could have less Drs during the week. I think more strikes are not the answer, perhaps everyone who works in the NHS should work according to their contracts. We could also rename the NHS the RBS then money would appear to be no problem.

Lookyhere

Ballysmate wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Why is Drs striking over pay surprising or a bad thing Bally? Or have I misunderstood?

Not surprising at all. I said on page 1 that it was about the money, and repeated since. I have also stated that they should be paid a salary reflecting their responsibility.
The strike has been justified by doctors and BMA on TV, radio and in print, as being about patient safety. I just don't think that to be the case.

Don't think they're mutually exclusive.

But the sole sticking point to the ending of the dispute appears to be the money on offer for working weekends. All the rest of the package appears to have been accepted. If the money was increased, I'm sure the BMA's safety concerns would evaporate.

Been working in Derriford hosp recently (4 week install) not one nurse, doc or consultant not even the student dentists at the Peninsula Dental School, talked about money, it was about respect for Doc's their Pro judgement, that they already work extremely long hours, that without considerably more money (which isnt forth coming) there will never be a 7 day NHS.
Without exception, they all despise Hunt