98% 0f 75% vote to strike
Comments
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Precisely. Except that, while there is a surprising number of very impressive foreign doctors in the UK, there are quite a few already that can hardly be described as either competent or anglophone...Expect to see even more doctors emigrating, and an even higher proportion of NHS doctors supplied by stripping them from the developing countries who desperately need them.
The first part of your sentence is probably true. The second part is also probably true for the time being, but for how long can we assume that the rest of the world will provide a constant and adequate supply of well-trained anglophone doctors?0 -
I thought a common complaint from Drs and patients was poor organisation created unnecessarily bad conditions for medical help? And that Drs are best focused on treating patients rather than worrying about administration?
In which case, why are managers so hated?
Private sector puts a hell of a lot of resource into management because good management is important in the success or failure of an organisation. I'd suggest the blaming of bloated management is a little bit of scapegoating.
Course can't have management for management sake but better to be considered than not.0 -
Bompy
In our exchange on page 2 of this thread I postedThere needs to be provision whereby weekend cover is not so much more expensive than cover Mon - Friday.
A rise of 11% has been offered but this is less than the minimum 14.9% that the Dr and Dentist review body recommended.
I understand the doctors anger and say without reservation that they deserve a fair return for their commitment and I hope the money is found to satisfy them.. I don't believe a strike is necessarily in anyone's interests. THere you go, I said they deserve a decent rise.
As I said, the dispute is about money, the government is trying to save it and the docs don't want it to be at their expense. Don't let's pretend otherwise.
This dispute IS about money and I said that docs should be compensated accordingly.
As regards what you said about the case of the crusty consultant above, yes you are right, it would suggest that we need more senior doctors at the weekend. It is what I have been arguing for - a 7 days a week health service. I still don;t accept that the difference in weekend care has been debunked.
But debunked or not, what is wrong with wanting a 7 day service.
The Deansley Centre at New Cross in Wolves for example, has (I think) 4 Linac machines. These are idle for 2 days a week. Why? Not maintenance, they are shut down individually during weekdays for this. How many machines, worth billions are lying idle for 2 days a week?
This situation has been badly handled by both sides, the losers being the ones that should not suffer, the patients.
If we are unable to offer the health service that is required, based on the present funding model, then we need to look at ALL alternatives.0 -
Doctors in Scotland and Wales are not on strike and are further ahead in 7 day working, as Doc's are all very similar, the difference must be, they ve not got that idiot Hunt in charge.
i do disagree about the dispute being about money, for start Hunt says it is not
!!! but more importantly, its about further disintegration of the NHS, allowing privatisation. 0 -
The privatisation conspiracy theory has been doing the rounds for years. Do you honestly think that is the plan?Doctors in Scotland and Wales are not on strike and are further ahead in 7 day working, as Doc's are all very similar, the difference must be, they ve not got that idiot Hunt in charge.
i do disagree about the dispute being about money, for start Hunt says it is not !!! but more importantly, its about further disintegration of the NHS, allowing privatisation."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
The privatisation conspiracy theory has been doing the rounds for years. Do you honestly think that is the plan?Doctors in Scotland and Wales are not on strike and are further ahead in 7 day working, as Doc's are all very similar, the difference must be, they ve not got that idiot Hunt in charge.
i do disagree about the dispute being about money, for start Hunt says it is not !!! but more importantly, its about further disintegration of the NHS, allowing privatisation.
http://www.theguardian.com/healthcare-network/2015/oct/02/nhs-one-way-road-privatisation
only explanation for the current dispute0 -
The only explanation in the Guardian :roll:
The privatisation conspiracy theory has been doing the rounds for years. Do you honestly think that is the plan?Doctors in Scotland and Wales are not on strike and are further ahead in 7 day working, as Doc's are all very similar, the difference must be, they ve not got that idiot Hunt in charge.
i do disagree about the dispute being about money, for start Hunt says it is not !!! but more importantly, its about further disintegration of the NHS, allowing privatisation.
http://www.theguardian.com/healthcare-network/2015/oct/02/nhs-one-way-road-privatisation
only explanation for the current dispute"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
"It would also seek to make the NHS evolve into a service for serious illness and life-threatening injuries, while people insure themselves against minor ailments."The only explanation in the Guardian :roll:
From that well known left wing propaganda machine, the Torygraph. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/11936737/Reform-the-NHS-or-watch-it-fade-and-die.htmlThe above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
The only explanation in the Guardian :roll:
The privatisation conspiracy theory has been doing the rounds for years. Do you honestly think that is the plan?Doctors in Scotland and Wales are not on strike and are further ahead in 7 day working, as Doc's are all very similar, the difference must be, they ve not got that idiot Hunt in charge.
i do disagree about the dispute being about money, for start Hunt says it is not !!! but more importantly, its about further disintegration of the NHS, allowing privatisation.
http://www.theguardian.com/healthcare-network/2015/oct/02/nhs-one-way-road-privatisation
only explanation for the current dispute
Do you dispute the Tories long term goal is privatisation?0 -
We had how many years of Labour government? and the privatisation theory was doing the rounds then too given that they also let the evil private sector in (needs must maybe?)CS7
Surrey Hills
What's a Zwift?0 -
The only explanation in the Guardian :roll:
The privatisation conspiracy theory has been doing the rounds for years. Do you honestly think that is the plan?Doctors in Scotland and Wales are not on strike and are further ahead in 7 day working, as Doc's are all very similar, the difference must be, they ve not got that idiot Hunt in charge.
i do disagree about the dispute being about money, for start Hunt says it is not !!! but more importantly, its about further disintegration of the NHS, allowing privatisation.
http://www.theguardian.com/healthcare-network/2015/oct/02/nhs-one-way-road-privatisation
only explanation for the current dispute
make that any press publication.
Did see a nice clip about the unsociable working hours starting at 10 rather than 7, but MPs get expensed dinner after 7:30 for working unsocial hours. Amusing, no idea on the truth of it all. We can leave Stevo's and MF's funded eating out of this though0 -
Given privatisation of the NHS has never been mentioned in any policy of manifesto and this particular conspiracy theory has been around for years, if it was a shady Tory conspiracy someone would have broken ranks by now and gone to the press. In that case, the onus is on you to show some concrete evidence why that is a long term Tory goal.
The only explanation in the Guardian :roll:
The privatisation conspiracy theory has been doing the rounds for years. Do you honestly think that is the plan?Doctors in Scotland and Wales are not on strike and are further ahead in 7 day working, as Doc's are all very similar, the difference must be, they ve not got that idiot Hunt in charge.
i do disagree about the dispute being about money, for start Hunt says it is not !!! but more importantly, its about further disintegration of the NHS, allowing privatisation.
http://www.theguardian.com/healthcare-network/2015/oct/02/nhs-one-way-road-privatisation
only explanation for the current dispute
Do you dispute the Tories long term goal is privatisation?
And fyi, 'concrete evidence' does not include speculation by leftie journos
Off you go..."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Bloody cheek, I haven't got my tax refund yet but I am looking forward to it 8) . If anyone else wants to know how, please PM me. Totally legit and confidentiality assured if you are outwardly leftie but secretly want to reduce your own tax bill
The only explanation in the Guardian :roll:
The privatisation conspiracy theory has been doing the rounds for years. Do you honestly think that is the plan?Doctors in Scotland and Wales are not on strike and are further ahead in 7 day working, as Doc's are all very similar, the difference must be, they ve not got that idiot Hunt in charge.
i do disagree about the dispute being about money, for start Hunt says it is not !!! but more importantly, its about further disintegration of the NHS, allowing privatisation.
http://www.theguardian.com/healthcare-network/2015/oct/02/nhs-one-way-road-privatisation
only explanation for the current dispute
make that any press publication.
Did see a nice clip about the unsociable working hours starting at 10 rather than 7, but MPs get expensed dinner after 7:30 for working unsocial hours. Amusing, no idea on the truth of it all. We can leave Stevo's and MF's funded eating out of this though "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
The only explanation in the Guardian :roll:
The privatisation conspiracy theory has been doing the rounds for years. Do you honestly think that is the plan?Doctors in Scotland and Wales are not on strike and are further ahead in 7 day working, as Doc's are all very similar, the difference must be, they ve not got that idiot Hunt in charge.
i do disagree about the dispute being about money, for start Hunt says it is not !!! but more importantly, its about further disintegration of the NHS, allowing privatisation.
http://www.theguardian.com/healthcare-network/2015/oct/02/nhs-one-way-road-privatisation
only explanation for the current dispute
make that any press publication.
Did see a nice clip about the unsociable working hours starting at 10 rather than 7, but MPs get expensed dinner after 7:30 for working unsocial hours. Amusing, no idea on the truth of it all. We can leave Stevo's and MF's funded eating out of this though
MP perks and contracted hours are irrelevant to this debate.0 -
Given privatisation of the NHS has never been mentioned in any policy of manifesto and this particular conspiracy theory has been around for years, if it was a shady Tory conspiracy someone would have broken ranks by now and gone to the press. In that case, the onus is on you to show some concrete evidence why that is a long term Tory goal.
And fyi, 'concrete evidence' does not include speculation by leftie journos
why doesn't it? lost count of the number newspaper articles you ve linked to but they must be fact because they are written by katie hopkins
As for manifesto's "no top reorg of nhs" or " we will be the greenest gov ever" followed by "cut out this Green cr@p"
but i think privatisation of some services can be good but the experiences of dental and eye care, does show that wholesale privatisation has long term costs, that the state ends up with.
http://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/verdict/nhs-being-privatised0 -
We do need an open debate on how UK plans to administer and pay for healthcare since it is currently unsustainable.
Problem is as soon as people start making suggestions people get hysterical.
The nation is little c conservative about this but it isn't the time to be so.
Privatisation may not be the answer but what we have isn't either. So let's hear some constructive ideas.0 -
Very true.We do need an open debate on how UK plans to administer and pay for healthcare since it is currently unsustainable.
Problem is as soon as people start making suggestions people get hysterical.
The nation is little c conservative about this but it isn't the time to be so.
Privatisation may not be the answer but what we have isn't either. So let's hear some constructive ideas.
A bit of a disconnect that most countries that have "social-y" political cultures - and quality healthcare - have at least some sort of private or insurance-based provision. People on the continent don't seem to have the same quasi-religious attitude we do to the NHS, or the reflex horror of privatisation.
Of course, the vast majority of NHS appointments are with private contractors anyway. I'm fairly sure that not a lot of people realise that.0 -
Lots of the continental insurance companies are mutuals run in the best interests of the consumer. Unfortunately, I suspect we'd end up with more of an American-style system if we made private insurance the norm in Britain.0
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Errr, that's a link to an article about private provision of specified services. As Bompington mentions, many aspects of NHS care are sub-contracted to the private sector. What you are claiming is wholesale privatisation. Two different things.Given privatisation of the NHS has never been mentioned in any policy of manifesto and this particular conspiracy theory has been around for years, if it was a shady Tory conspiracy someone would have broken ranks by now and gone to the press. In that case, the onus is on you to show some concrete evidence why that is a long term Tory goal.
And fyi, 'concrete evidence' does not include speculation by leftie journos
why doesn't it? lost count of the number newspaper articles you ve linked to but they must be fact because they are written by katie hopkins
As for manifesto's "no top reorg of nhs" or " we will be the greenest gov ever" followed by "cut out this Green cr@p"
but i think privatisation of some services can be good but the experiences of dental and eye care, does show that wholesale privatisation has long term costs, that the state ends up with.
http://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/verdict/nhs-being-privatised
Here's the conclusion of the article that you linked and their conclusion is not what you are claiming.
"The King’s Fund verdict
The NHS has always commissioned a proportion of health care services from private providers and spend on private sector providers has increased in recent years in some areas of care. About 10 per cent of NHS spend on health services is on non-NHS providers which includes for-profit companies, local authorities, social enterprises, charities and community interest companies.
There has been growth in non-NHS provision of care, but there has been no wholesale privatisation of the NHS. It is hard to predict the extent of further growth of non-NHS provision in the short to medium term. The appetite for such work, particularly among commercial organisations, may be limited given the degree of financial pressure within the system and more limited prospect of profit generation. On the other hand, the NHS may make use of spare capacity in the private sector to treat patients when targets are missed if NHS hospitals are unable to take on this work, as has happened under successive governments.
For-profit, non-profit and NHS providers can provide high-quality care and equally all sectors can fail to do so. Whether a provider (public or private) makes a surplus/profit from its trading with the NHS does not automatically mean that quality of care is compromised. The Fund’s view is that who provides the service is less important than the quality and efficiency of the care that is provided.
Competition can bring benefits but these benefits can be outweighed by costs and difficulties of competitive process. This means that the commissioning of and contracts awarded to any provider must be highly effective in demanding the best outcomes for patients and value for money for the taxpayer. In addition, the choices made by commissioners should not prevent changes that may be necessary to ensure more joined-up care. Regulators have a role in reporting comparative information on quality of care and in ensuring minimum standards are met.""I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
debate has moved on, Steve0, the KF report isnt by a left wing journo...... and is their current conclusion on the state of NHS provision, private and state.
i would like to see more done on prevention and demand.0 -
It's only 'moved on' because you failed to come up with any concrete evidence to support your conspiracy theorydebate has moved on, Steve0, the KF report isnt by a left wing journo...... and is their current conclusion on the state of NHS provision, private and state.
i would like to see more done on prevention and demand.
But the point that alternatives do need to be found to just chucking more and more money at an unreformed NHS is a valid one."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Wasn't there a study a few years ago that found the NHS to offer the best value for money when compared to other health systems in the developed world? Maybe it just needs more money and more doctors, rather than more reforms...0
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Whoa, steady on there. If there's one thing we've learned it is "more money = leftiebollox"Ecrasez l’infame0
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It's only 'moved on' because you failed to come up with any concrete evidence to support your conspiracy theorydebate has moved on, Steve0, the KF report isnt by a left wing journo...... and is their current conclusion on the state of NHS provision, private and state.
i would like to see more done on prevention and demand.
But the point that alternatives do need to be found to just chucking more and more money at an unreformed NHS is a valid one.
No, i gave one article and PB gave you another your only response was "lefty journo's etc" whilst failing to ans my question about why you think the NHS isnt in the process of being privatise... so theres no point
So, what would YOU do to boost funding on NHS ? preventing black alerts during winter peak periods and another Southern health scandal, that sees the CEO keep her 165k job, nurse shortages and the Docs strike, because all you do is rubbish any ideas, whilst presenting none of your own!0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19779833#p19779833]BelgianBeerGeek[/url] wrote:Whoa, steady on there. If there's one thing we've learned it is "more money = leftiebollox"
Sorry, I shall atone for my sins in the Stevo way.
"Hail Maggie, full of grace, Hail Maggie, full of grace, Hail Maggie, full of grace, Hail Maggie, full of grace."
I'll also make a £25k donation to the Tory party. I might even get a kitchen supper out of it if the Holy Cameron truly forgives me.0 -
Note the use of the word 'just' in my post above[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19779833#p19779833]BelgianBeerGeek[/url] wrote:Whoa, steady on there. If there's one thing we've learned it is "more money = leftiebollox" . It's already been tried as every year we spend more on the NHS, so I think there is an argument that more is needed than just more money. "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
At least you recognise who's running the country. Some lefties on here seem to be unaware of the last GE result and in denial about the likely result of the next one[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19779833#p19779833]BelgianBeerGeek[/url] wrote:Whoa, steady on there. If there's one thing we've learned it is "more money = leftiebollox"
Sorry, I shall atone for my sins in the Stevo way.
"Hail Maggie, full of grace, Hail Maggie, full of grace, Hail Maggie, full of grace, Hail Maggie, full of grace."
I'll also make a £25k donation to the Tory party. I might even get a kitchen supper out of it if the Holy Cameron truly forgives me.
PS: That £25k could be a bit less costly if it's tax deductible."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
At least you recognise who's running the country. Some lefties on here seem to be unaware of the last GE result and in denial about the likely result of the next one
PS: That £25k could be a bit less costly if it's tax deductible.
if only someone was actually running the country, whether its NHS, School places, lack of affordable housing or floods, europe, profiteering from 'leccy, rising demand for BTL (theres a surprise ) and now a falling pound and dire warnings of another crash (from Ossie) no one seems to be in charge, just constantly reacting to crisis.
so whats Steve0s answers ? got any.......0 -
Mrs FR got treated very well in a French hospital some years ago - It was a regional hospital, and "private", but essentially funded through payments from the state insurance scheme (and me at that point!). I observed better care than I have seen in the UK, but more significantly, considerably better admin and relationships of admin to medical.
Call me Dave should remember better what he received in support for his son. He seems to have forgotten pretty quickly, and with it the reassurances he gave either explicitly or implicitly to others in a similar position.
Can't say I have been impressed by private health care in the UK - which might indicate the problems in the NHS lie in a different area to the ideological ones usually spouted.0 -
At least you recognise who's running the country. Some lefties on here seem to be unaware of the last GE result and in denial about the likely result of the next one
PS: That £25k could be a bit less costly if it's tax deductible.
if only someone was actually running the country, whether its NHS, School places, lack of affordable housing or floods, europe, profiteering from 'leccy, rising demand for BTL (theres a surprise ) and now a falling pound and dire warnings of another crash (from Ossie) no one seems to be in charge, just constantly reacting to crisis.
so whats Steve0s answers ? got any.......
isn't that all lack of managerial ability by the state and a reason politicians should interfere less and let business get on with it?
Regulation of electricity and the government's, particularly this one, lack of understanding how markets work explains the apparrent profiteering, though I doubt if many in the retail sector would want to live on the mark up electricity gets compared to food, clothes, household goods etc.0
