Donald Trump

pinno

TheBigBean wrote:

The only level of integration I expect from anyone is that they will follow the laws of the country they are in. Speaking English isn't one of those.

So you're going to furnish every individual with a personal translator and you do not require a basic understanding of English to get work, for general administration, signing a rental contract and sending your children off to school?
You also don't think any migrant would benefit from being taught English?

We had better post job adverts in 40 different languages then and interview them with a translator in hand.

http://www.personneltoday.com/hr/legal- ... h-at-work/

Wasn't there a case recently where an NHS Doctor who had a bad grasp of English and was making mistakes as a direct result? (Farage and his naff headliners aside).

I speak a little Kiswahili, French and Swedish. It's only when you start learning a language, that you start to understand the culture better. The nuances and expressions in language are instrumental to getting on with people, with communicating, with forming positive relationships.
I know quite a few foreign nationals who speak excellent English and coincidentally, are doing very well for themselves.
Funny that. Some of them have a better grasp of English than me but that's bye the bye.
On the whole, there is probably evidence of people's grasp of the national tongue and well being. I'm sure someone could find it.

rick_chasey

TheBigBean wrote:

The only level of integration I expect from anyone is that they will follow the laws of the country they are in. Speaking English isn't one of those.

I used to think this. And really more people ought to think like this.

I have had a shift of opinion on this however.

I think if we establish that integration into the local community is important do social cohesion and a lack of integration is to the detriment of broader society then you need to think about how to do that.

The singular easiest way to do that is to insist they learn to speak and read the local language. It's mutually beneficial for everyone, and goes a long way to avoiding ghettoisation.

So to me, they must obey the law, but they should also make a genuine endeavour to learn the language.

rick_chasey

My biggest fear with regard to Trump is what is going to happen in Eastern Europe & NATO.

If he is true to his word on NATO I do worry a lot about Russian belligerence. A lot.

If I was the Lithuanian minister of defence I'd have a lot of sleepless nights.

A break up of the EU to me would only act as another power vacuum for Russian war planes to fill.

surrey_commuter

Pinno wrote:

@ SC. Not sure if some of your post contains sarcasm. I wasn't offering a solution.
If I were to try and become a Swedish citizen, I would get free language courses for 6 months for example. I think it is mandatory for non EU migrants.

There are certain immigrants who adapt to our culture and learn English quickly. On the other hand, there are those who find it a struggle. Perhaps they need help. Perhaps we need some form of induction.
When you arrive in America through legitimate channels, you have to swear oaths and allegiance. I'm not sure about it tbh because anyone could just play the game, nod and grin and go through the process paying lip service. However, it is a form of threshold which the incomer has to step over making it clear that they are in another country, at the discretion of the host and there are rules and customs that the migrant has to consider.

I wouldn't expect to go to France or Germany and not take consideration of the existing rules and customs if I were to want to live there.

Part of the root problem with integration (as I have previously stated) is our attitude. No induction course will solve that.

Nope no being sarcastic- if I moved abroad I would see it as my duty to conform to local customs.

I like the idea of free English lessons but would link it to an end to multi-lingual forms especially benefits.
If you can not speak any English then you are not available for work so lose benefits
If you serve a prison term then you get deported

TheBigBean

Rick Chasey wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

The only level of integration I expect from anyone is that they will follow the laws of the country they are in. Speaking English isn't one of those.

I used to think this. And really more people ought to think like this.

I have had a shift of opinion on this however.

I think if we establish that integration into the local community is important do social cohesion and a lack of integration is to the detriment of broader society then you need to think about how to do that.

The singular easiest way to do that is to insist they learn to speak and read the local language. It's mutually beneficial for everyone, and goes a long way to avoiding ghettoisation.

So to me, they must obey the law, but they should also make a genuine endeavour to learn the language.

To solve the problem you pose, you need to include a legal requirement to do things in the community. Otherwise, a miserable grump like me who happens to speak English can happily carry on ignoring the entire community. I quite like the idea of community service, but making it mandatory would seem a bit restrictive.

rick_chasey

I'm not sure that's the case bean. It's within your right to be a recluse.

Recluses aren't a problem. Groups who the local community can't interact with and visa versa are.

You don't ignore the community anyway.

surrey_commuter

Rick Chasey wrote:

Coopster the 1st wrote:

For a country that is heralded as being so great, how could they have given the electorate such a poor choice for two candidates?

Additionally, can anyone confirm if the losers are saying the vote was advisory? And whether they are accepting the result of the vote or coming out with ways to undermine democracy?

Do we need to explain the differences between a referendum and an election to you?

Coopster - 5 mins on Google will calm your anger levels - even the nuttiest of the Brexiteers do not think the referendum was anything other than advisory

TheBigBean

Pinno wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

The only level of integration I expect from anyone is that they will follow the laws of the country they are in. Speaking English isn't one of those.

So you're going to furnish every individual with a personal translator and you do not require a basic understanding of English to get work, for general administration, signing a rental contract and sending your children off to school?
You also don't think any migrant would benefit from being taught English?

We had better post job adverts in 40 different languages then and interview them with a translator in hand.

http://www.personneltoday.com/hr/legal- ... h-at-work/

Wasn't there a case recently where an NHS Doctor who had a bad grasp of English and was making mistakes as a direct result? (Farage and his naff headliners aside).

I speak a little Kiswahili, French and Swedish. It's only when you start learning a language, that you start to understand the culture better. The nuances and expressions in language are instrumental to getting on with people, with communicating, with forming positive relationships.
I know quite a few foreign nationals who speak excellent English and coincidentally, are doing very well for themselves.
Funny that. Some of them have a better grasp of English than me but that's bye the bye.
On the whole, there is probably evidence of people's grasp of the national tongue and well being. I'm sure someone could find it.

You're confusing things. Learning English would clearly be helpful in most circumstances, but I'm not going to compel someone by law to do it. How someone else lives their life has nothing to do with me or you.

Also, didn't you spend a number of years in East Africa? It sounds like "a little Kiswahili" probably wouldn't get you a job in that language, but somehow you survived.

surrey_commuter

Rick Chasey wrote:

My biggest fear with regard to Trump is what is going to happen in Eastern Europe & NATO.

If he is true to his word on NATO I do worry a lot about Russian belligerence. A lot.

If I was the Lithuanian minister of defence I'd have a lot of sleepless nights.

A break up of the EU to me would only act as another power vacuum for Russian war planes to fill.

If I lived in the Baltics I would keep my assets offshore and my passport in my pocket.

But Trump's suggestion that Europe should pay it's fair share of the cost of defence is probably the most reasonable thing he has ever said.

rick_chasey

Yeah it is but it's a transition and a stable Europe is beneficial to the US.

TheBigBean

Rick Chasey wrote:

I'm not sure that's the case bean. It's within your right to be a recluse.

Recluses aren't a problem. Groups who the local community can't interact with and visa versa are.

You don't ignore the community anyway.

What do you think of international schools around the world?

You'd need to give me an example of where communities struggle to interact which actually causes problems beyond someone not being able to eavesdrop on the bus.

surrey_commuter

TheBigBean wrote:

Pinno wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

The only level of integration I expect from anyone is that they will follow the laws of the country they are in. Speaking English isn't one of those.

So you're going to furnish every individual with a personal translator and you do not require a basic understanding of English to get work, for general administration, signing a rental contract and sending your children off to school?
You also don't think any migrant would benefit from being taught English?

We had better post job adverts in 40 different languages then and interview them with a translator in hand.

http://www.personneltoday.com/hr/legal- ... h-at-work/

Wasn't there a case recently where an NHS Doctor who had a bad grasp of English and was making mistakes as a direct result? (Farage and his naff headliners aside).

I speak a little Kiswahili, French and Swedish. It's only when you start learning a language, that you start to understand the culture better. The nuances and expressions in language are instrumental to getting on with people, with communicating, with forming positive relationships.
I know quite a few foreign nationals who speak excellent English and coincidentally, are doing very well for themselves.
Funny that. Some of them have a better grasp of English than me but that's bye the bye.
On the whole, there is probably evidence of people's grasp of the national tongue and well being. I'm sure someone could find it.

You're confusing things. Learning English would clearly be helpful in most circumstances, but I'm not going to compel someone by law to do it. How someone else lives their life has nothing to do with me or you.

Also, didn't you spend a number of years in East Africa? It sounds like "a little Kiswahili" probably wouldn't get you a job in that language, but somehow you survived.

I do not see how anybody can integrate into society or realistically pay their way (yes there are exceptions) without learning the language. I think it is reasonable to expect an immigrant to learn our language.

I don't care if they do not know the date of the Battle of Trafalgar but they should have an understanding of the principles of our law - i.e. No entering, taking or touching unless invited

rick_chasey

TheBigBean wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

I'm not sure that's the case bean. It's within your right to be a recluse.

Recluses aren't a problem. Groups who the local community can't interact with and visa versa are.

You don't ignore the community anyway.

What do you think of international schools around the world?

You'd need to give me an example of where communities struggle to interact which actually causes problems beyond someone not being able to eavesdrop on the bus.

Molenbeek.

TheBigBean

Surrey Commuter wrote:

I do not see how anybody can integrate into society or realistically pay their way (yes there are exceptions) without learning the language.

Firstly, no one is under an obligation to integrate into society. Secondly, your inability to see something, does not not lead to

Surrey Commuter wrote:

I think it is reasonable to expect an immigrant to learn our language.

Surrey Commuter wrote:

I don't care if they do not know the date of the Battle of Trafalgar but they should have an understanding of the principles of our law - i.e. No entering, taking or touching unless invited

And yet, you have probably been on holiday without a crash course in the local language and a legal structure.

TheBigBean

Rick Chasey wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

I'm not sure that's the case bean. It's within your right to be a recluse.

Recluses aren't a problem. Groups who the local community can't interact with and visa versa are.

You don't ignore the community anyway.

What do you think of international schools around the world?

You'd need to give me an example of where communities struggle to interact which actually causes problems beyond someone not being able to eavesdrop on the bus.

Molenbeek.

Is that because residents there broke the law? A law which would apply the world over.

surrey_commuter

Rick Chasey wrote:

Yeah it is but it's a transition and a stable Europe is beneficial to the US.

Agreed but Lithuania's minister of defence can not complain when his country only spends 0.8% of GDP on defence, Latvia is not far behind.

He should give threaten to cut his spending by the same amount that the others collectively underspend.

surrey_commuter

TheBigBean wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

I do not see how anybody can integrate into society or realistically pay their way (yes there are exceptions) without learning the language.

Firstly, no one is under an obligation to integrate into society. Secondly, your inability to see something, does not not lead to

Surrey Commuter wrote:

I think it is reasonable to expect an immigrant to learn our language.

Surrey Commuter wrote:

I don't care if they do not know the date of the Battle of Trafalgar but they should have an understanding of the principles of our law - i.e. No entering, taking or touching unless invited

And yet, you have probably been on holiday without a crash course in the local language and a legal structure.

Big difference between holiday and emigration but when going somewhere with different culture and laws yes I have familiarised myself.

surrey_commuter

TheBigBean wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

I'm not sure that's the case bean. It's within your right to be a recluse.

Recluses aren't a problem. Groups who the local community can't interact with and visa versa are.

You don't ignore the community anyway.

What do you think of international schools around the world?

You'd need to give me an example of where communities struggle to interact which actually causes problems beyond someone not being able to eavesdrop on the bus.

Molenbeek.

Is that because residents there broke the law? A law which would apply the world over.

What about Rotherham or Cologne?

finchy

TheBigBean wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

I'm not sure that's the case bean. It's within your right to be a recluse.

Recluses aren't a problem. Groups who the local community can't interact with and visa versa are.

You don't ignore the community anyway.

What do you think of international schools around the world?

You'd need to give me an example of where communities struggle to interact which actually causes problems beyond someone not being able to eavesdrop on the bus.

Do you mean immigrant communities or do you just mean any minority community? Because if it's the latter, Roma in Eastern Europe. From what I hear, Aborigines and white Australians. Or do you mean a linguistic minority?

rick_chasey

TheBigBean wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

I'm not sure that's the case bean. It's within your right to be a recluse.

Recluses aren't a problem. Groups who the local community can't interact with and visa versa are.

You don't ignore the community anyway.

What do you think of international schools around the world?

You'd need to give me an example of where communities struggle to interact which actually causes problems beyond someone not being able to eavesdrop on the bus.

Molenbeek.

Is that because residents there broke the law? A law which would apply the world over.

Partly sure. It's also partly that a notable amount of residents there have active hostility to the culture in which they live. You don't want it getting to the point of breaking the law in the first place.

I would put a lot of money on if they as a community had been made to speak the local language the tension between that community and the rest of Belgium would have been mitigated.

Indeed, the tension over what language to speak still creates tension and hostility within Belgium generally as a result of the Dutch/French divide.

If you can easily communicate with one another it's much easier to bridge the gaps.

pinno

TheBigBean wrote:

Pinno wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

The only level of integration I expect from anyone is that they will follow the laws of the country they are in. Speaking English isn't one of those.

So...it.

You're confusing things. Learning English would clearly be helpful in most circumstances, but I'm not going to compel someone by law to do it. How someone else lives their life has nothing to do with me or you.

Also, didn't you spend a number of years in East Africa? It sounds like "a little Kiswahili" probably wouldn't get you a job in that language, but somehow you survived.

First of all, I left Kenya at the age of 11. Secondly, both parents were fluent in Kiswahili. Had I gone to secondary school, Kiswahili would have been mandatory though I was taught Kiswahili in primary school.
I was simply making the point that learning a language allows one to cross cultural divide.

IME, when in France or Spain even (armed with my tourist gringo Spanish), I have rarely come across any animosity towards me whereas I have met others who reach a completely different point of view and the bottom line is they 'don't speak the lingo, innit'.
I find it funny when Nigel and Rachel from Essex build a big villa in Spain and find a bulldozer parked in the middle of it one day. They don't go there for the culture, they don't speak the language, they aren't prepared to fully integrate which would thereby open the legal channels and then they would be aware of the processes required to legally build a villa. They might even be accepted into the locality.
I have no sympathy for them and I fully understand why the locals resent these people.

@SC - Fair enough, sometimes you just never know...

TheBigBean

As ever on the internet, I don't think we're going to agree, so I'll move back on topic with the following question: does anyone have the slightest clue why Trump wanted to be president? If we can work that out we might have more of an idea of what he might do.

pinno

TheBigBean wrote:

As ever on the internet, I don't think we're going to agree, so I'll move back on topic with the following question: does anyone have the slightest clue why Trump wanted to be president? If we can work that out we might have more of an idea of what he might do.

Ego.

bobmcstuff

Nobody cares about Roe v Wade then?

TheBigBean

If it's ego, then we can expect all sorts of vanity projects: great wall of Trump, Trump infrastructure, maybe a statue or two and no doubt a lot of vain grandstanding on the international scene.

ddraver

(would just add to the language discussion that, having spent 5 years in NL never speaking dutch, if you re going to force people to speak the language then you need to provide good quality lessons at various times of the day and for free...

I'd love to have learnt dutch but at the point I arrived, cheap or free dutch lessons had been cut in Leiden and I did nt have the time or money to devote to a university level dutch course (one intended for students at the uni, not "normos", you could use it to gain points towards degrees and that...). I suspect that the money that would cost would make may a Daily Mail reader think twice about how important it is to speak english.)

Anyway, back to the US

surrey_commuter

bobmcstuff wrote:

Nobody cares about Roe v Wade then?

And similar for potentially decades to come. Two of the Democrat appointees are in their 80s.

rick_chasey

TheBigBean wrote:

If it's ego, then we can expect all sorts of vanity projects: great wall of Trump, Trump infrastructure, maybe a statue or two and no doubt a lot of vain grandstanding on the international scene.

It's less ego and more an insatiable attention appetite.

My highest hopes now (having been dashed so comprehensively the past 5 years) is the more respectable Republicans use him like a puppet because deep down he doesn't have the will nor the stamina to do the job properly.

rick_chasey

ddraver wrote:

(would just add to the language discussion that, having spent 5 years in NL never speaking dutch, if you re going to force people to speak the language then you need to provide good quality lessons at various times of the day and for free...

I'd love to have learnt dutch but at the point I arrived, cheap or free dutch lessons had been cut in Leiden and I did nt have the time or money to devote to a university level dutch course (one intended for students at the uni, not "normos", you could use it to gain points towards degrees and that...). I suspect that the money that would cost would make may a Daily Mail reader think twice about how important it is to speak english.)

Anyway, back to the US

They used to for years & years!

Kept my mother's best friend in employment for decades!

ddraver

Yeah but that's the thing that makes NL what it is, Britain takes a different view...

That on top of the fact that NL is one of the few places where speaking english, but not the mother tounge, is almost no big deal