Donald Trump

chris_bass

Dinyull wrote:

There was a cracker doing the rounds on twitter last night.

no need to be racist

slowmart

I wonder if Trump will announce a declaration of war via twatter? How many times has this spoiled rich kid who is now 70 complained that "it's not fair"

It's a misconception of biblical proportions to think Trump will be anything but a disaster as a President and I wonder what the target of his mis-direction will be and to what extremes he'll go to to duck responsibility.

The difficult aspect for Trump is delivering on his promises. His electoral base elevated him to the position on a wave of frustration and anger and that base has a blend of different drivers which shaped their frustration in electing trump

I remember a psychologist stating "a firearm was a permanent solution to a temporary problem" which I suppose the american people have just picked up and fired.

pinno

Slowmart wrote:

I wonder if Trump will announce a declaration of war via twatter? How many times has this spoiled rich kid who is now 70 complained that "it's not fair"

It's a misconception of biblical proportions to think Trump will be anything but a disaster as a President and I wonder what the target of his mis-direction will be and to what extremes he'll go to to duck responsibility.

The difficult aspect for Trump is delivering on his promises. His electoral base elevated him to the position on a wave of frustration and anger and that base has a blend of different drivers which shaped their frustration in electing trump

I remember a psychologist stating "a firearm was a permanent solution to a temporary problem" which I suppose the american people have just picked up and fired.

He may fail so badly and end up disenfranchising even more of the electorate. Perhaps in 2021, there will be a turn out of 3 and the winner will have got over 66% of the vote (providing 1 person doesn't vote :none of the above').

bendertherobot

The reports of who he appoints will be hyperbolic by their very nature but it does look like a climate change denier (rather than sceptic) in charge of the EPA, and a "being gay is a lifestyle choice" candidate in relation to the 100 day transition.

rolf_f

Slowmart wrote:

The difficult aspect for Trump is delivering on his promises.

I'm not sure he will care if he doesn't deliver on his promises. It's hard to know what his motivations are but he probably isn't going to lose any sleep trying to ensure that the Republican party succeed after him.

bendertherobot

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-34903577

Quick test, how many can each BR supporter pick out as nodding in some agreement with? Even if only partially.

bobmcstuff

bendertherobot wrote:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-34903577

Quick test, how many can each BR supporter pick out as nodding in some agreement with? Even if only partially.

7 - I don't think having Saddam back would be in any way good (if he wasn't dead), but the mess that they've made and the many thousands of deaths it took to get there doesn't seem much better.

10 - Since it's a statement of fact - Putin is a leader and Trump probably would get along with him, so it's kinda hard to disagree with...

11 - Reasonable in principle to reduce the complexity of the tax code and have no tax for people on low incomes (presumably this would be roughly like our personal allowance). Hard to disagree without specifics. Although given he apparently might pursue an expansionary fiscal policy (if the houses let him do it), it's hard to see how this will stack up.

13 - Yeah, why not. Be nice if he mentioned human rights too but that's not high up his agenda

Everything else - nah.

bendertherobot

Yeah, I'd add 16. Assuming they can sort out something. We seem to have that issue here as well.

bobmcstuff

Oh I only got as far as 14...

So 16, possibly

17 isn't entirely unreasonable. Lobbyists seem to be a big issue in the US

23 might be true, I don't know.

rick_chasey

Rick Chasey wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

SecretSam wrote:

So the disenfranchised white poor have spoken. Again.

.

Not quite that simple.

Basically the well educated vote (who the GOP get the majority share in that strata) held up better than the poor.

Would imagine that's specifically to do with a big drop in black voters who are harder to get out to vote.

Seems like the election was so ugly it put a lot of people off and only the most reliable voters got out and actually voted.


Explains the Democrat message in the final two weeks which was just "Vooote ffs"

Looks like I read it wrong. Comparing to Obama is a little unfair - he's the democrat outlier.

mrfpb

Clinton did a lot better than Trump with ethnic minorities, but worse than Obama, so there as a swing away from Democrats in those demographics. Commentators talked about Clinton's "blue wall" of safe states, but it turned out to be Obama's wall.

bendertherobot

"Love the fact that the small groups of protesters last night have passion for our great country," he tweeted. "We will all come together and be proud!"

Someone's taken over his twitter account again.

ukiboy

Pinno wrote:

I'm an outsider. I don't see these great British traditions being eroded because I don't think there's much to 'British Traditions'. I don't know what cultural diversity is in your neck of the woods UKboy but Sunday Roast, conventions, platitudes attached to the convention, red phone boxes, a few beers before the footy and come home and beat your wife up if the result isn't your way, fish and chips, cup o' tea, Mary f*cking Poppins, concrete blocks (people actually live in?!) from London to Bristol to Glasgow, etc.
All mixed in with a happy dose of 'them over there'...'those bloody foreigners'...'if you liked it [homeland] so much, why don't you go back there/why did you leave? xenophobia/prejudice/narrow mindedness. Sometimes i'd like to call some British people Russian or whoever because apparently as i'm from Africa, i'm just like a South African or a Nigerian despite the distance between Nairobi and Jo Burg/Abuja being far further than London is to Moscow.

Ranting aside, when I go to Europe, people are less threatened by any 'erosion of traditions'. Perhaps their traditions and culture is more organic and haven't got stuck in the mud somewhere between the Crimean War and Cameron's resignation.
Perhaps the root of the Brexit voters is part of our Island Mentality kicking in, or at least they feel threatened by Johnny Foreigner because Johnny Foreigner doesn't do things like what we do and if Johnny Foreigner sets up a corner shop, they are seriously compromising our wonderful traditions of Cup o' tea, Mary F*cking Poppins or worse, they employ a British Person and then they're not only taking over our lives but taking over.

Thank f*ck for cultural diversity in the UK. If values consist of accommodation, compassion, hard work (like we have that ethic :roll: ), a sense of community, a sense of duty and the want to do good, then I would gladly swap a few local inbreds for a few of those types of people.

That's quite a negative view of Britain! I'm guessing you don't recall or weren't here in the 'good old days'?
As for people in Europe feeling less threatened by erosion of traditions - I take it you haven't been to Poland, Russia, Hungary, France... In my experience these countries have a far more hard line and intolerant view of any changes or perceived threats to their traditions and way of life.

bendertherobot

Ooof! Junker wades in. (Cross thread!)

Stevo_666

bendertherobot wrote:

Ooof! Junker wades in. (Cross thread!)

Most likely Juncker is joining the likes of Merkel in having kittens about what Trump's win (and Brexit) will do to embolden populist parties in Europe.with various elections coming up.

tailwindhome

Haven't seen much in the way of post match analysis of the Others vote

From less than 2 million in previous elections to over 6 million in 2016

Looking at Florida and it's 29 electoral college votes

In 2012 Obama took Florida with 50.01% versus Romney on 49.1% and the others (Libertarian and Green) 0.06%

In 2016 Trumps takes the state with 49.1%, Clinton can only get 47.8% while the others vote jumps to 3.1%


Elections aren't won by changing peoples minds - they're won by getting your vote out.

pinno

ukiboy wrote:

Pinno wrote:

I'm...people.

That's quite a negative view of Britain! I'm guessing you don't recall or weren't here in the 'good old days'?

Lol

ukiboy wrote:

[As for people in Europe feeling less threatened by erosion of traditions - I take it you haven't been to Poland, Russia, Hungary, France... In my experience these countries have a far more hard line and intolerant view of any changes or perceived threats to their traditions and way of life.

Warning: Slightly off topic but it's in the Cake Stop rules.

The French have the guts to say 'No' to the hijab in schools. When they protest, they really protest - Re.: milk being poured down the street? In the UK any of these moves such as outlawing hijabs would be seen as stepping on the feet of the politically correct and viewed as discriminatory. The French vociferously defend their traditions. Not only through actions but through law.
There's a two way flow here:
One is the whole process of becoming a British Citizen. Some parts of Leeds and Bradford wanted separate Sikh councils after the Asian race riots?!? WTF? When the police went to meet with the Sikh 'elders', they had to take a translator and sit on the floor. Some of the elders had been in the UK 35 years plus but still didn't speak English.
If you want to come to Britain and live, you have to respect the traditions and cultures and at the most basic level, speak English.
I cannot recall (though I am unaware of) any situation where foreigners make demands on the country to which they are alien quite the same way as cultures come here and expect.

On the other side of the coin, we have not been welcoming to foreigners ever since the arrival of the West Indians in the 50's or the influx of Asians later on, particularly after Idi Amin unceremoniously kicked them out of Uganda. In fact, the language used by the media and in the general populace to describe Asians or Blacks was horrendous. Remember JIm Davidson? What an 4rse and he was popular right into the late 80's. So his attitude was acceptable until relatively recently.

We have grudgingly accepted Johnny Foreigner but the begrudging comes at a cost - lack of full integration and the isolation and resentment of various ethnic communities.
Part of what I studied (HRM Major, Sociology Minor) showed certain ethnic groups as having more or less ability to integrate and become economically independent - in other words, not reliant on the state within a certain period of time. The top achievers were Indian Asians (bar the very small Far Eastern contingent) but the lowest and least able were those from Bangladesh. There's a whole spectrum in between and since my time at Uni, we've had influxes of Somali's. Eritreans to name but a few.
Having taught at a multi national school in Kenya, my mother had realised the different abilities, learning curves and absorption of information in the different cultures. Koreans and Japanese were speaking 'workable' English in 8 weeks - i'll re-iterate, 8 weeks. Others took far longer.
What she said in terms of Education in the UK, is that in the UK, we have made almost zero effort. Perhaps this is the root cause of the rise of non-native faith schools. I think there is an intrinsic link between integration and prosperity with acceptance of other cultures.
The fact that some bring practices of FGM and some want Sharia law, is a stark reminder that the induction process and the threshold to which people who want to reside in the UK as permanent citizens, is non existent and what is there, does not work. It's a double edged sword as it creates division and provides excuses for the xenophobic to wield their skewed notions of Nationalism. Not 'National Pride' - that's a different thing altogether, but Nationalism.

I think the long term division between the cultures and the extra numbers over the last 10 years, has reached critical mass - even more pressure on housing, even more pressure on social services, schools etc. Meanwhile the politicians sit on their hands, the housing crises is exacerbated by greedy property developers hanging on to land and not building, councils who are bereft of the legislative powers to resolve local issues because since centralisation of government, councils are simply enablers and no longer legislators. They are also cash strapped.
Immigrants to the UK are plunged into a cocktail of social problems, the housing crises, austerity, existing social division; mainly through economic disparities in equality. The very fabric of UK administration is stretched to the limit and under pressure.
The influx of Johnny foreigner (even though the majority come here with good intent) has exposed all the weaknesses in our country. It's not necessarily the fault of Johnny Foreigner but ignore it at our peril and meanwhile, Johnny Foreigner is used as a scapegoat for our weak infrastructure and lack of real direction. Add an innate suspicion and intolerance of 'foreigners and we have a malaise that is so difficult to resolve. Ultimately, all these factors have been instrumental in the Brexit vote.

ddraver

(i'm going to sulk about no one taking my alt-right theory seriously by the way)

finchy

ddraver wrote:

(i'm going to sulk about no one taking my alt-right theory seriously by the way)

I think that the reference probably went past a lot of people.

ddraver

Well thats interesting in itself but i take your point....

bobmcstuff

ddraver wrote:

Well thats interesting in itself but i take your point....

I read it, not 100% I agree but a reasonable point.

finchy

On the subject of ddraver's big-mouthed permanently offended students, I'll agree that they do give an appalling image of liberals (and this being America, they probably are liberals, not leftists), and social media gives these bell-ends far more prominence than they would have received in the past, when what would have been a very local nuisance instead becomes a national or even global talking point/laughing stock.

pinno

bobmcstuff wrote:

ddraver wrote:

Well thats interesting in itself but i take your point....

I read it, not 100% I agree but a reasonable point.

I read it and it went woosh, right over ma stoopit, baldy heid.

surrey_commuter

Pinno wrote:

ukiboy wrote:

Pinno wrote:

I'm...people.

That's quite a negative view of Britain! I'm guessing you don't recall or weren't here in the 'good old days'?

Lol

ukiboy wrote:

[As for people in Europe feeling less threatened by erosion of traditions - I take it you haven't been to Poland, Russia, Hungary, France... In my experience these countries have a far more hard line and intolerant view of any changes or perceived threats to their traditions and way of life.

Warning: Slightly off topic but it's in the Cake Stop rules.

The French have the guts to say 'No' to the hijab in schools. When they protest, they really protest - Re.: milk being poured down the street? In the UK any of these moves such as outlawing hijabs would be seen as stepping on the feet of the politically correct and viewed as discriminatory. The French vociferously defend their traditions. Not only through actions but through law.
There's a two way flow here:
One is the whole process of becoming a British Citizen. Some parts of Leeds and Bradford wanted separate Sikh councils after the Asian race riots?!? WTF? When the police went to meet with the Sikh 'elders', they had to take a translator and sit on the floor. Some of the elders had been in the UK 35 years plus but still didn't speak English.
If you want to come to Britain and live, you have to respect the traditions and cultures and at the most basic level, speak English.
I cannot recall (though I am unaware of) any situation where foreigners make demands on the country to which they are alien quite the same way as cultures come here and expect.

On the other side of the coin, we have not been welcoming to foreigners ever since the arrival of the West Indians in the 50's or the influx of Asians later on, particularly after Idi Amin unceremoniously kicked them out of Uganda. In fact, the language used by the media and in the general populace to describe Asians or Blacks was horrendous. Remember JIm Davidson? What an 4rse and he was popular right into the late 80's. So his attitude was acceptable until relatively recently.

We have grudgingly accepted Johnny Foreigner but the begrudging comes at a cost - lack of full integration and the isolation and resentment of various ethnic communities.
Part of what I studied (HRM Major, Sociology Minor) showed certain ethnic groups as having more or less ability to integrate and become economically independent - in other words, not reliant on the state within a certain period of time. The top achievers were Indian Asians (bar the very small Far Eastern contingent) but the lowest and least able were those from Bangladesh. There's a whole spectrum in between and since my time at Uni, we've had influxes of Somali's. Eritreans to name but a few.
Having taught at a multi national school in Kenya, my mother had realised the different abilities, learning curves and absorption of information in the different cultures. Koreans and Japanese were speaking 'workable' English in 8 weeks - i'll re-iterate, 8 weeks. Others took far longer.
What she said in terms of Education in the UK, is that in the UK, we have made almost zero effort. Perhaps this is the root cause of the rise of non-native faith schools. I think there is an intrinsic link between integration and prosperity with acceptance of other cultures.
The fact that some bring practices of FGM and some want Sharia law, is a stark reminder that the induction process and the threshold to which people who want to reside in the UK as permanent citizens, is non existent and what is there, does not work. It's a double edged sword as it creates division and provides excuses for the xenophobic to wield their skewed notions of Nationalism. Not 'National Pride' - that's a different thing altogether, but Nationalism.

I think the long term division between the cultures and the extra numbers over the last 10 years, has reached critical mass - even more pressure on housing, even more pressure on social services, schools etc. Meanwhile the politicians sit on their hands, the housing crises is exacerbated by greedy property developers hanging on to land and not building, councils who are bereft of the legislative powers to resolve local issues because since centralisation of government, councils are simply enablers and no longer legislators. They are also cash strapped.
Immigrants to the UK are plunged into a cocktail of social problems, the housing crises, austerity, existing social division; mainly through economic disparities in equality. The very fabric of UK administration is stretched to the limit and under pressure.
The influx of Johnny foreigner (even though the majority come here with good intent) has exposed all the weaknesses in our country. It's not necessarily the fault of Johnny Foreigner but ignore it at our peril and meanwhile, Johnny Foreigner is used as a scapegoat for our weak infrastructure and lack of real direction. Add an innate suspicion and intolerance of 'foreigners and we have a malaise that is so difficult to resolve. Ultimately, all these factors have been instrumental in the Brexit vote.

I totally agree with you on intergration. Any thoughts on how you would enforce it? No language compromise on our side to make them learn? More deportations? Presumably after several years word would get out and discourage those not intending to integrate.

pinno

@ SC. Not sure if some of your post contains sarcasm. I wasn't offering a solution.
If I were to try and become a Swedish citizen, I would get free language courses for 6 months for example. I think it is mandatory for non EU migrants.

There are certain immigrants who adapt to our culture and learn English quickly. On the other hand, there are those who find it a struggle. Perhaps they need help. Perhaps we need some form of induction.
When you arrive in America through legitimate channels, you have to swear oaths and allegiance. I'm not sure about it tbh because anyone could just play the game, nod and grin and go through the process paying lip service. However, it is a form of threshold which the incomer has to step over making it clear that they are in another country, at the discretion of the host and there are rules and customs that the migrant has to consider.

I wouldn't expect to go to France or Germany and not take consideration of the existing rules and customs if I were to want to live there.

Part of the root problem with integration (as I have previously stated) is our attitude. No induction course will solve that.

TheBigBean

The only level of integration I expect from anyone is that they will follow the laws of the country they are in. Speaking English isn't one of those.

Stevo_666

I was reminded of this old Not The Nine O'clock News sketch

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=s2n87YKSjrA

coopster_the_1st

For a country that is heralded as being so great, how could they have given the electorate such a poor choice for two candidates?

Additionally, can anyone confirm if the losers are saying the vote was advisory? And whether they are accepting the result of the vote or coming out with ways to undermine democracy?

imposter2.0

Dinyull wrote:

I'm just putting this out there:

He won't last 4 years. Someone will find some dirt on him - sex tape, ridiculously racist statement etc and his position will become untenable.

I agree - I also believe he won't last a full term - and I'm currently looking for the best odds so I can put a fiver on it. But I doubt if it will be scandal related (although I'm sure there'll be a few), I think he'll just walk.

His whole demeanor has changed since the election victory and the backtracking is already well underway on both Clinton and Obamacare. A bit like Boris and Brexit - he now looks like a guy that wasn't expecting to win the popular vote and is now wondering wtf he has got himself into.

rick_chasey

Coopster the 1st wrote:

For a country that is heralded as being so great, how could they have given the electorate such a poor choice for two candidates?

Additionally, can anyone confirm if the losers are saying the vote was advisory? And whether they are accepting the result of the vote or coming out with ways to undermine democracy?

Do we need to explain the differences between a referendum and an election to you?