On endurance/gravel/çross bikes
ddraver
Posts: 26,697
So, the dear Dutch Government has charged me too much tax and are giving it back. As any cyclist will understand this has made my new bike trigger finger very itchy
I was looking at something in a winter/gravel/long distance/cobbled sportive bike and my eye was caught by the Planet-X XLS. However, it would appear that this is a relatively aggressive cross bike designed for racing.
The issue I'm finding is that the cheaper (hydraulic disk brakes minimum kit level) cross bikes are all euro style cross racers (PX XLS, Ridley X bow) and so perhaps not so ideal as an "all roader"
However, the "new wave" of US style, slacker head angle and longer chain stayed cross bikes (which are very similar to gravel grinders apart from having less tyre clearance) are mostly out of my budget (e.g. Salsa Warbird, Niner RLT, Trek Boone and the drop dead gorgeous but way out of my budget Santa Cruz Stigmata
That said, the XLS has a head angle of 72w which may be steeper than the "standard" gravel grinder geometry but is s till much slacker than my road "race" bike. The chainstays are also slightly shorter (425 vs 435mm). Is this a big change? It is still significantly more relaxed than my road bike which is significantly steeper and shorter. Am i putting way too much importance on the frame numbers?
(The Pickenflick doesnt really interest me so much for reasons that I can't really put my finger on. Their Dirty Disco would probably have been perfect)
I was looking at something in a winter/gravel/long distance/cobbled sportive bike and my eye was caught by the Planet-X XLS. However, it would appear that this is a relatively aggressive cross bike designed for racing.
The issue I'm finding is that the cheaper (hydraulic disk brakes minimum kit level) cross bikes are all euro style cross racers (PX XLS, Ridley X bow) and so perhaps not so ideal as an "all roader"
However, the "new wave" of US style, slacker head angle and longer chain stayed cross bikes (which are very similar to gravel grinders apart from having less tyre clearance) are mostly out of my budget (e.g. Salsa Warbird, Niner RLT, Trek Boone and the drop dead gorgeous but way out of my budget Santa Cruz Stigmata
That said, the XLS has a head angle of 72w which may be steeper than the "standard" gravel grinder geometry but is s till much slacker than my road "race" bike. The chainstays are also slightly shorter (425 vs 435mm). Is this a big change? It is still significantly more relaxed than my road bike which is significantly steeper and shorter. Am i putting way too much importance on the frame numbers?
(The Pickenflick doesnt really interest me so much for reasons that I can't really put my finger on. Their Dirty Disco would probably have been perfect)
We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver
- @ddraver
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Comments
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Thats nice, about the tax refund - that only ever happens to me when I'm playing monopoly!
I'm kind of in the same boat, wanting a sub £1.6k carbon framed disc bike with the ability to fit mudguards so can be used in winter/wet. I do like the look of the XLS, but it won't fit full guards.
I have a budget of about £1500 max, and have so far come up with the following (very) short list:
http://www.jamisbikes.com/usa/renegadeexpert.html
Jamis only available in the UK from Evans
http://www.wheelbase.co.uk/bikes-frames/brands/cube/cube-attain-gtc-pro-2016-grey.html?___SID=U
Neither are yet available in their 2016 versions (and the 2015 Jamis no longer available in my size). Both of these take full mudguards, and have hydraulic brakes (although in the case of the Jamis 'cable actuated').0 -
Why not the PX London road? Or Whyte's road range, or various other disc road bikes with larger clearance? Does it have to be carbon?0
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Carbon would be nice for a long distance road machine...
Have to say, LL reminded me of the Norco Search which seems to be phenomonally well reviewed and has the same geo as the PX XLS...so now I'm really confused
Question - would one of these all road bikes be ok for CX? As I said above the difference on many brands seems to be the kit on the frame and the paint job rather than anything in the frame. In most cases the geo is identical!We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
A cross bike should be build for speed on a short, high intensity cross race. Classically it'd have a high bottom bracket for clearance and steep angles. An endurance road bike would be more relaxed angles and a lower BB. In practice the marketing department have more sway than the designers!
Do you actually want to race cross, or ride across cobbles and gravel tracks?0 -
Oooh, that Jamis is nice - do you reckon it would stand up to a bit of amateur 'cross? (the frame looks very similar to their cross bike)
Evans though...eurrggh
Yeah, that is my current favourite as well, espcially as I have just contact an LBS and the Cube won't be available until "late December".
Never had bother with Evans, at least my local branch (Kendal).0 -
So you want a road endurance bike with big clearance really. Lots of aluminium options now (Pinnacle, Genesis, Charge, Pearson to name a few), a few carbon options but seem expensive. Maybe next year cheap carbon models will be more available.0
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If you want to enter an hour long race could you really be bothered changing tyres and taking mud guards off? Buy a nice winter bike (London Road in green) and use the 29er for CX. Plenty fast lads in my league use 29ers.0
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What would people recommend if the requirement for carbon were dropped and maybe the budget a little too.
I'm looking for a similar sort of thing to replace by old winter bike - want to try discs and want something with the option to do some unsurfaced tracks that I pass on rides in the Peak and want to do some cobbled sportive type rides. I wouldn't be using it to race cross though - mostly it'd be my new winter training bike so something not too heavy would be good.
edit - agree about it being unlikely you'll faff with mudguards and tyres for one race but do people really use 29ers for cross with any success - haven't seen that in the Notts and Derby (though I haven't been to one for a year or two since my kids stopped racing)[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
mud guards are not a thing over here so that's not such an issue. THe London Road is good but I'm not sure it's intended to be a long distance bike really...plus the discs are cable. The majority of the benefit of discs is all in the hydraulics so...
DeV - arguably a race 29er is just a flat bar cross bike so...We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
There's a build of the London Road that comes with Rival 22 with Hydraulic discs for a grand. I know, because I rode one to work this morning.mud guards are not a thing over here so that's not such an issue. THe London Road is good but I'm not sure it's intended to be a long distance bike really...plus the discs are cable. The majority of the benefit of discs is all in the hydraulics so...
DeV - arguably a race 29er is just a flat bar cross bike so...0 -
mud guards are not a thing over here so that's not such an issue. THe London Road is good but I'm not sure it's intended to be a long distance bike really...plus the discs are cable. The majority of the benefit of discs is all in the hydraulics so...
DeV - arguably a race 29er is just a flat bar cross bike so...
There's a hydraulic disc version (I have one) for £999
Why wouldn't it be good for long distance? It's a pretty relaxed geometry...0 -
This is the London Road with hydraulic discs:
http://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/CBPXLDNRIVHRD/planet-x-london-road-sram-rival-22-hydraulic-disc-road-bike0 -
I have to agree hydraulics are the way to go. Cable discs are good, but having gone from BB7s to a Parabox converter and seeing a vast improvement in feel I would definitely go full hydraulic given the choice.The majority of the benefit of discs is all in the hydraulics so...0 -
Other options:
Whyte Dorset (they do other groupset options
http://www.cyclesurgery.com/pws/UniqueProductKey.ice?ProductID=CWHY0250EE&gclid=CjwKEAjwyqOwBRDZuIO4p5SV8w0SJAAQoUSwonBOix0GMuFWretSyFU03c4LT9SbrOjuNlJHVE6vIxoCK0Lw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds
Merlin's offering:
http://www.merlincycles.com/merlin-x20-105-ar-commuter-cx-bike-2016-86641.html?utm_campaign=googlebase-GB&utm_source=googlebase&utm_medium=shopping&utm_term=Cyclocross+Bikes&ucpo=24404&gclid=CjwKEAjwyqOwBRDZuIO4p5SV8w0SJAAQoUSwT2HTTu7WfwdYu8bVXqHgWpSXAHZUawAX9Kfp-5RlXBoCymLw_wcB
Canyon inflite:
https://www.canyon.com/en-gb/road/inflite/2016/inflite-al-8-0-s.html
Pinnacle arkose 4:
http://www.evanscycles.com/products/pinnacle/arkose-four-2015-adventure-road-bike-ec071308?country=GB¤cy=GBP&esvt=872-GOUKE236820&esvq=&esvadt=999999-0-32584-1&esvcrea=61235981336&esvplace=&esvd=c&esvaid=50080&gclid=CjwKEAjwyqOwBRDZuIO4p5SV8w0SJAAQoUSwr2opzVueFTMp3Ajw31smUyQ7w3js7FQnMvPy_OPHtBoCqTHw_wcB
Charge plug:
http://www.evanscycles.com/products/charge/plug-4-2016-road-bike-ec120454
Genesis equilibrium (road biased) or Croix de fer (offroad biassed).
Sure there are more. Surprised Ribble don't have anything yet to be honest.0 -
Thanks guys, I'm enjoying this...
To put the question differently though - how much do you think the frame numbers matter. For exampl, those Whyte bikes has Head Angles of 73degs whereas the majority of them have angels of 71 (or for the Whyte 'cross bikes, even less!)
How much difference are those 1-2 degrees going to really make?We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
May be of interest, but for this years CX bike I've gone 'backwards' in that I'm now rigged out with Cantis. Initial thoughts:
1) i think they look nicer
2) I feel a bit more 'pro'
3) They are less 'digital' and I actually find modulation is easier
4) They add to the excitement, in that at the weekend I approached full gas corners with an impending sense of doom as i wasn't so much slowing down as getting an excellent forearm workout.Insert bike here:0 -
And it quite possibly looks a lot like this.
There's a build of the London Road that comes with Rival 22 with Hydraulic discs for a grand. I know, because I rode one to work this morning.mud guards are not a thing over here so that's not such an issue. THe London Road is good but I'm not sure it's intended to be a long distance bike really...plus the discs are cable. The majority of the benefit of discs is all in the hydraulics so...
DeV - arguably a race 29er is just a flat bar cross bike so...
And the people bowed and prayed, to the neon god they made.0 -
If you want to satisfy your carbon requirements and can stretch your budget a tad - Genesis have introduced a new "Datum" range for 2016. Carbon framed disc bike with mudguard fittings front and rear.
The cheapest is the Datum 10 which comes in at £1800 rising to the Datum 30 at just over £3K
http://roadcyclinguk.com/gear/genesis-bikes-four-highlights-from-the-2016-road-range.html/1
Could be worth thinking about.0 -
It looks very much like that - although mine has different wheels, silver guards and the front mudguard stays are less neatly fettled sadly.
And it quite possibly looks a lot like this.There's a build of the London Road that comes with Rival 22 with Hydraulic discs for a grand. I know, because I rode one to work this morning.0 -
GT Grade
Giant Anyroad
Giant Revolt
Genesis Datum0 -
If you want to satisfy your carbon requirements and can stretch your budget a tad - Genesis have introduced a new "Datum" range for 2016. Carbon framed disc bike with mudguard fittings front and rear.
The cheapest is the Datum 10 which comes in at £1800 rising to the Datum 30 at just over £3K
http://roadcyclinguk.com/gear/genesis-bikes-four-highlights-from-the-2016-road-range.html/1
Could be worth thinking about.
Yeah I have a Team Zero so I'm a big Genesis fan. The Datum is just too much money though (in both senses of the word). To get a good frame with Rival Hydraulic kit for 1100 would leave some extra cash for a decent st of Tubeless wheels (which are lacking on most of the cheaper options, save the Whytes)
I think the thing to do now is to try and find some bikes locally that I can test ride to see if I can notice the difference between steeper or slacker GeometriesWe're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
Steeper head angles do make the bike more twitchy. It needs to be considered with the fork trail too. Another consideration is toe ovelap.
The whyte bikes are designed as a road bike with discs, so have more road bike handling than touring / endurance bike riding. My road bikes are both 73 degree head tubes and have been ridden on plenty of gravel trails and cobbles without issue. I'd go for a more stable geometry (with a lower head angle) for my next bike for the following reasons:
- Slower steering and longer chainstays are more stable when loaded with panniers
- Lower head angle / increased fork rake means my foot doesn't hit the front mudguard when turning.
- longer chainstays mean i don't get heel strike on panniers or chainstay - worth bearing in mid that discs have wider rear hubs.
Definitely worth thinking about what you want to use the bike for, and then get some test rides!
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Thanks Alan
It would seem like the XLS would effectively bisect your "new" bike and your current ones. I suppose the marketing men would tell me that carbon layups and frame comfort levels would be different but I slightly struggle to believe that most of that wouldnt be equally acheivable by running 28c tyres (or bigger) vs 23. The new Schwalbe G-One s caught my eye for that purpose
(btw, I'm only concentrating on On-One/Planet X to keep brand consistency)We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
Kona hasn't been named yet. They're getting more attention lately and do offer nice CX and gravel bikes.
For me a cyclocrosser works out fine. When is dry in autumn/winter I will take out my road bike (with 28mm tyres when I'm doing cobbles). Wet, than starts the fun with the cyclocrosser.0 -
Did anyone mention the GT Grade too?
The PX london road looks great - except I'm a shimano man!
I'm interested to see the Tiagra triple groupset come out and see if anyone specs it. Not seen it on a bike yet.0 -
Compared to cable or hydraulic discs?May be of interest, but for this years CX bike I've gone 'backwards' in that I'm now rigged out with Cantis. Initial thoughts:
1) i think they look nicer
2) I feel a bit more 'pro'
3) They are less 'digital' and I actually find modulation is easier
4) They add to the excitement, in that at the weekend I approached full gas corners with an impending sense of doom as i wasn't so much slowing down as getting an excellent forearm workout.0 -
Compared to cable or hydraulic discs?May be of interest, but for this years CX bike I've gone 'backwards' in that I'm now rigged out with Cantis. Initial thoughts:
1) i think they look nicer
2) I feel a bit more 'pro'
3) They are less 'digital' and I actually find modulation is easier
4) They add to the excitement, in that at the weekend I approached full gas corners with an impending sense of doom as i wasn't so much slowing down as getting an excellent forearm workout.
Both actually - but certainly cable.
To be utterly clear, hydraulic discs are certainly 'better'.Insert bike here:0
