Why no Sky women's team?
Comments
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Blimey! Didn't realise the difference was so big.
In 2008 just before the Olympics Cooke and Pooley and some other GB women entered the Ras De Cymru - aan amateur six stage race for category 2 riders and below. Pooley won a stage and Cooke was eighth or ninth on GC. So that's about their standard.Just out of curiosity, what would be the likely outcome if the best in the womens peloton were allowed to mix it up with the men? Is there a gargantuan performance difference or would they be just as good as Team Cannondale say!?0 -
Blimey! Didn't realise the difference was so big.
In 2008 just before the Olympics Cooke and Pooley and some other GB women entered the Ras De Cymru - aan amateur six stage race for category 2 riders and below. Pooley won a stage and Cooke was eighth or ninth on GC. So that's about their standard.Just out of curiosity, what would be the likely outcome if the best in the womens peloton were allowed to mix it up with the men? Is there a gargantuan performance difference or would they be just as good as Team Cannondale say!?
In other words, pretty similar to Garmindale.0 -
Blimey! Didn't realise the difference was so big.
In 2008 just before the Olympics Cooke and Pooley and some other GB women entered the Ras De Cymru - aan amateur six stage race for category 2 riders and below. Pooley won a stage and Cooke was eighth or ninth on GC. So that's about their standard.Just out of curiosity, what would be the likely outcome if the best in the womens peloton were allowed to mix it up with the men? Is there a gargantuan performance difference or would they be just as good as Team Cannondale say!?
As a further anecdote, Dani King rode in a race I organise (Regional A) and finished just inside the top 10 in a sprint finish. She was comfortable and always near the front though. I think she rides fairly regularly in local Regional As and I would say rates with the better local 2nd cats. OK she isn't one of the very top female road racers but still able to hold her own in an international field.0 -
Sky are reaching 100% of the pro cycling audience already. Why double pay for the same people?
OK that's the business view.
Yes they could benefit from sponsoring a women's team ethically but their money will be optimised to reach sports fans in this market who they are already blanket covering.
But this isn't about reaching Pro-Cycling fans. As RR2 stated you would be vying for another audience. Pro-cycling fans are 90% male, partly because it such a male dominated sport.
Go back 40 years and the same problem faced a lot of women's sports.
This isn't about quotas or ethics, IMHO there is an untapped, largely female audience that nobody seems to take seriously. An audience with money to spend.
I don't necessarily agree that pro-cycling fans are 90% male.
Certainly isn't the case in France & Italy.0 -
In reality cycling can't be pulled up for not doing enough for women's cycling. They probably do more than the majority of sports in the World.
I cannot name one female sport (Athletics doesn't count) that is on the tv or I could spectate at.Contador is the Greatest0 -
In reality cycling can't be pulled up for not doing enough for women's cycling. They probably do more than the majority of sports in the World.
I cannot name one female sport (Athletics doesn't count) that is on the tv or I could spectate at.
Tennis? It's on all the time and gets very similar levels of coverage to the men's game, equal prize money etc. even though it shares the supposed weaknesses of women's cycling i.e. shorter, slower and less physical. Although, in my opinion, those aren't necessarily disadvantages in watching tennis.0 -
Yeah tennis is a good one to mention. There are very few though especially if you look at the list of major sports by attendance.Contador is the Greatest0
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Blimey! Didn't realise the difference was so big.
In 2008 just before the Olympics Cooke and Pooley and some other GB women entered the Ras De Cymru - aan amateur six stage race for category 2 riders and below. Pooley won a stage and Cooke was eighth or ninth on GC. So that's about their standard.Just out of curiosity, what would be the likely outcome if the best in the womens peloton were allowed to mix it up with the men? Is there a gargantuan performance difference or would they be just as good as Team Cannondale say!?
As a further anecdote, Dani King rode in a race I organise (Regional A) and finished just inside the top 10 in a sprint finish. She was comfortable and always near the front though. I think she rides fairly regularly in local Regional As and I would say rates with the better local 2nd cats. OK she isn't one of the very top female road racers but still able to hold her own in an international field.
In Athletics though, and when you compare records across the board, then women only perform 10% less than men. This does not seem to correlate with women being only as good as Cat 2 racers.
I would have thought the difference between the pro peloton and Cat2 was more than 10%.0 -
I expect the cat 2 racer equivalence is an anomaly. In addition, a top 10 cat 2 is probably a soon to be cat 1/elite rider, which suggests the top female riders are closer to cat 1 than cat 2. If you look at track records, TP etc, records are ~10% lower than men, though I'd posit that this will narrow since the women's event has only recently gone to 4 and historically has not been as competitive. The hour record is much wider, but again, while the men's version has attracted some of the finest athletes, we're yet to see the very best women attempt it. At longer distances, VO2max will be the determining factor, and that's usually a bit greater than 10% difference in elites. In an amateur road race, I'd expect economy to be high important and it's perhaps that men have benefits in that area. Evidence points to there being no advantage to men in longer endurance events, so the artificial caps on race length have no real basis.
Usually people don't go to see the very best of a sport - they go to see something exciting and competitive. If they only went to the best, then no one would watch West Ham. Watching women's XCO and DH racing is amazing. If you're not amazed by their skill and endurance, then I don't know. Jolanda Neff is just incredible, even compared to Schurter. The Women's cyclocross champs last year was one of the finest races to watch in recent years - both for excitement and tactics. Much more exciting, and a better watch, than the mens.0 -
Usually people don't go to see the very best of a sport - they go to see something exciting and competitive. If they only went to the best, then no one would watch West Ham.
I don't totally agree with that as football is totally different to most other sports in that it's ingrained into you from a young age who you support. It's almost a tribal thing. Most football fans would go out of their way to see Barca, Bayen etc play if given a chance. And the Championship, League 1 and 2 year in year out are much more competitive than the PL yet attendances and coverage are pretty poor.
Most people want to see the best of the best, doesn't matter what gender. Look at Ronda Rousey in UFC at the minute, she's a massive draw on the same bill as the men as she's a guaranteed performer.0 -
Tennis is always the one thrown into these arguments. It's interesting to note that it's promoted by different bodies for men and women, with the WTA handling the women's game, and that might be a factor in it's success. But like it or loathe it, the WTA play the sex card pretty big, and it shouldn't surprise anyone that Serena Williams is not the top earning female player, and that not very good players can make a lot of money out of endorsements if they fit the sponsors profile, which is pretty much OCDuPalais's (Most Excellent) vision for cycling.0
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Usually people don't go to see the very best of a sport - they go to see something exciting and competitive. If they only went to the best, then no one would watch West Ham.
I don't totally agree with that as football is totally different to most other sports in that it's ingrained into you from a young age who you support. It's almost a tribal thing. Most football fans would go out of their way to see Barca, Bayen etc play if given a chance. And the Championship, League 1 and 2 year in year out are much more competitive than the PL yet attendances and coverage are pretty poor.
Most people want to see the best of the best, doesn't matter what gender. Look at Ronda Rousey in UFC at the minute, she's a massive draw on the same bill as the men as she's a guaranteed performer.
Yes, it's not simplistic, but you agree with the principle, no? Accepting that there must be something at stake, what would you go to see, a world champs running race with tactics predominating over speed, or a world record attempt? I suspect most would like to go and see a good race, rather than a good world record attempt. If you accept that, it means we can put aside any argument that goes along the lines of "men's racing is preferable because it is faster".0 -
Usually people don't go to see the very best of a sport - they go to see something exciting and competitive. If they only went to the best, then no one would watch West Ham.
I don't totally agree with that as football is totally different to most other sports in that it's ingrained into you from a young age who you support. It's almost a tribal thing. Most football fans would go out of their way to see Barca, Bayen etc play if given a chance. And the Championship, League 1 and 2 year in year out are much more competitive than the PL yet attendances and coverage are pretty poor.
Most people want to see the best of the best, doesn't matter what gender. Look at Ronda Rousey in UFC at the minute, she's a massive draw on the same bill as the men as she's a guaranteed performer.
Yes, it's not simplistic, but you agree with the principle, no? Accepting that there must be something at stake, what would you go to see, a world champs running race with tactics predominating over speed, or a world record attempt? I suspect most would like to go and see a good race, rather than a good world record attempt. If you accept that, it means we can put aside any argument that goes along the lines of "men's racing is preferable because it is faster".
But how do you know its going to be a good race in advance?You don't. I've seen womens and mens races that have been great, and womens and mens races that have been stinkers. Womens racing isnt guaranteed to be 'more exciting' than mens, juniors, etc - and vice versa
(actually, junior races are quite fun cos they tend to be knocking seven bells out of each other, and attack like kamikazes)0 -
Well, I didn't say anything about women's races being more exciting than men's, I'm merely making the argument that exciting races are preferable. You ably make the point that in advance we don't know which races will be exciting, and that applies to both men's and women's races. Therefore, if we were without prejudice, we would go equally to men's and women's races to seek entertainment?
You obviously mean men's junior races, because women's junior racing is really not a thing at all. The most promising junior females (Garner Jnr, Broughton etc) are racing 'elite' women's racing. Elite in quotes because elite category racing in the UK is a merely a name of a category, not the usually recognised performance term.0 -
Yes, there was a reason why I said junior. And didnt specify gender.0
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Wouldn't it be great if we got junior women's races, and get to see them go for it?
Anyway, I did see stef wyman post his run down of how much it costs to run a women's team. It was absolute peanuts. It's hard to believe that any female cyclist would really want to be a full time pro - the amount that some of the teams are talking about paying their riders really doesn't amount to much, and these are the leading teams.
http://themartincox.co.uk/2015/08/cost-running-womens-pro-team-2015/0 -
Well, I didn't say anything about women's races being more exciting than men's, I'm merely making the argument that exciting races are preferable. You ably make the point that in advance we don't know which races will be exciting, and that applies to both men's and women's races. Therefore, if we were without prejudice, we would go equally to men's and women's races to seek entertainment?
But there is more strength in depth to the men's side, so you could assume that the men's races would offer more entertainment more often.0 -
Well, I didn't say anything about women's races being more exciting than men's, I'm merely making the argument that exciting races are preferable. You ably make the point that in advance we don't know which races will be exciting, and that applies to both men's and women's races. Therefore, if we were without prejudice, we would go equally to men's and women's races to seek entertainment?
But there is more strength in depth to the men's side, so you could assume that the men's races would offer more entertainment more often.
Yes, I think that's probably true at the moment.0 -
It's hard to believe that any female cyclist would really want to be a full time pro
Pro Cycling dads who didn't have a son forcing them. :-).BASI Nordic Ski Instructor
Instagramme0 -
and here you have another example why Lizzie A - and many others - have no faith in BC when it comes to womens road racing
GB Womens RR team announced today
Lizzie Armitstead
Lucy Garner
Alice Barnes
Molly Weaver
Jessie Walker
Hayley Simmonds
No Dani King.
Lizzie and Lucy Garner obvs ride at the highest level on the womens scene. Jessie Walker joined Servetto Footon in the last 2 months and road the womens Giro last month.
Simmonds is the Nat TT champ so will be doing competing in the TT.
But Weaver rides for a British domestic team, and Barnes is on the U23 MTB Academy (or equivalent)
Yet no room for King who has been domestiquing for the Wiggle Honda team leaders at top level races - and doing a bloody good job at it.
I can totally understand why Lizzie A gets so hacked off.0 -
I'm no BC apologist - they hack me off royally. However, Alice Barnes is a bloody brilliant cyclist, recent podiums in MTB world cups (at u23 level). She isn't just some random MTB rider the BC academy is bolstering the team with who has no history of road racing. And from my memory, hasn't Mollie Weaver been riding for Liv-Plantur, plus 2nd at the Nat Champs? Deciding between those two vs. Dani King doesn't look easy to me.0
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Yes Molly Weaver joined Liv-Plantur during the season and went straight into the Giro Donne. Alice Barnes was 2nd in the nationals over a tough selective course.
You could also ask where's Hannah Barnes who had a great series of results in Utah, Eileen Roe who's done a similar job as Dani King and just as well. Seems a fair team selection and I think we should be happy that we are able to argue who should be in the team.0 -
Yes Molly Weaver joined Liv-Plantur during the season and went straight into the Giro Donne. Alice Barnes was 2nd in the nationals over a tough selective course.
You could also ask where's Hannah Barnes who had a great series of results in Utah, Eileen Roe who's done a similar job as Dani King and just as well. Seems a fair team selection and I think we should be happy that we are able to argue who should be in the team.
Barnes is crocked, for starters (collar bone)
Roe did something to her finger a while ago, but I see she's riding in Ireland this week0 -
I'm no BC apologist - they hack me off royally. However, Alice Barnes is a bloody brilliant cyclist, recent podiums in MTB world cups (at u23 level). She isn't just some random MTB rider the BC academy is bolstering the team with who has no history of road racing. And from my memory, hasn't Mollie Weaver been riding for Liv-Plantur, plus 2nd at the Nat Champs? Deciding between those two vs. Dani King doesn't look easy to me.
I know Alice Barnes is good. and yes, she pulled off a fantastic 2nd in the Nats. But she's relatively inexperienced at this level of intl competition. Especially important when you're putting together a team to support someone who genuinely has a good chance of winning.
Weaver has been riding for Liv-Plantur since Jun
I'd also like to know what's happened with Anna Christian...0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19700979#p19700979]Richmond Racer 2[/url] wrote:I'm no BC apologist - they hack me off royally. However, Alice Barnes is a bloody brilliant cyclist, recent podiums in MTB world cups (at u23 level). She isn't just some random MTB rider the BC academy is bolstering the team with who has no history of road racing. And from my memory, hasn't Mollie Weaver been riding for Liv-Plantur, plus 2nd at the Nat Champs? Deciding between those two vs. Dani King doesn't look easy to me.
I know Alice Barnes is good. and yes, she pulled off a fantastic 2nd in the Nats. But she's relatively inexperienced at this level of intl competition. Especially important when you're putting together a team to support someone who genuinely has a good chance of winning.
Weaver has been riding for Liv-Plantur since Jun
I'd also like to know what's happened with Anna Christian...
didn't anna break her collar bone in a crash early season? maybe struggling to get back on form, or maybe academy not suiting her or she is simply more track focussed this year, had a really good rides last year at CWG and Worlds...0
