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Greatest British Cyclist

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  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 55,917 Lives Here

    I don't know why it's a big deal for some people - I don't consider Froome as a British rider - he didn't come through the UK system, he has never lived here t.

    Broadly speaking, when it comes to identity, it's usually a good idea to consider what the person feels themselves - particularly when the legal documentation backs it up.

    I think some people (perhaps those with less clear cut views of their own identity with regard to nationality) find it uncomfortable or generally not great taste when someone else decide's on their identity.

    When I mooch about with an English accent having lived here most of my life, I don't take too kindly to people dismissing my identity affiliation with the Netherlands (since that was where I was born, to a Dutch mother, and my house, in the UK, operated through a Dutch cultural prism), because I have 'come through the UK system'.

    That's what the deal is. It's not Froome's specific identity, but what your position says about some of their own.
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 25,272
    I've mentioned this before, but I know someone who has known Froome's brothers since they were at school together. I asked him if them consider themselves British or Kenyan. He said he didn't know as he'd never thought to ask, but he personally had always considered them British.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 7,069

    I don't know why it's a big deal for some people - I don't consider Froome as a British rider - he didn't come through the UK system, he has never lived here t.

    Broadly speaking, when it comes to identity, it's usually a good idea to consider what the person feels themselves - particularly when the legal documentation backs it up.

    I think some people (perhaps those with less clear cut views of their own identity with regard to nationality) find it uncomfortable or generally not great taste when someone else decide's on their identity.

    When I mooch about with an English accent having lived here most of my life, I don't take too kindly to people dismissing my identity affiliation with the Netherlands (since that was where I was born, to a Dutch mother, and my house, in the UK, operated through a Dutch cultural prism), because I have 'come through the UK system'.

    That's what the deal is. It's not Froome's specific identity, but what your position says about some of their own.


    I don't think you've actually made any points there. You've put a few little digs in but really you've just said I feel like this and I don't like the fact you feel differently - fine but clearly a lot of people do not feel inclined to support Froome in the way they would were he to have grown up in the UK so are you really saying they are somehow wrong ?

    You mention legal documentation but as I said there is more than one sense in which one may be "British" and clearly in the legal sense Froome is so that is neither here nor there.

    You say it's a good idea to consider what the person feels themself - sure it might be a good idea to consider it but that's different to everyone else being bound to take that as the end of the story. I might consider myself Scottish but I can assure you that if I said as much in Glasgow pub the majority would think my claim to be so based on my mum being Scottish would be trumped by my accent, never having lived there and my father being English and would they really be so unreasonable in thinking that way ?

    I'm happy for people to be able to construct their own identity but at the same time I don't expect everyone else to buy into that. When we are talking about something like supporting sportspeople from the same country I'm happy for individuals to decide what factors are important for them in deciding whether they have an affinity for them or not. If you want to place emphasis on holding a passport why should others not place emphasis on actually having lived in the country in question ?

    Not sure what you are meaning to imply with your last sentence so I'll let you spell it out.
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  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 25,272
    People get too hung up about nationality. Lots of people have more than one.

    Recently there was a big survey done by Welsh Hockey asking members who should be considered Welsh for international team purposes. The near unanimous answer was 'whoever the FIH* rules say is eligible'. So someone I know has recently qualified for Wales by being at university in Cardiff for two years. And good luck to him.

    (FIH=UCI for hockey)
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 7,069
    People get too hung up about nationality. Lots of people have more than one.

    (FIH=UCI for hockey)

    I agree with both points.
    AFC Mercia women - sign for us
  • timoid.timoid. Posts: 3,133
    I was born to British parents in another country and I've always considered myself British first and foremost so I find Froome's position quite normal.

    Difference being he doesn't live in the UK and never (as far as I'm aware) has.

    Whatever, if he genuinely feels he's British, then he is. I just never get the impression that he does.
    It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.
  • The_BoyThe_Boy Posts: 3,099
    People get too hung up about nationality. Lots of people have more than one.

    Recently there was a big survey done by Welsh Hockey asking members who should be considered Welsh for international team purposes. The near unanimous answer was 'whoever the FIH* rules say is eligible'. So someone I know has recently qualified for Wales by being at university in Cardiff for two years. And good luck to him.

    (FIH=UCI for hockey)

    See also: Scott Spedding. Born and bred in South Africa, played for SA u21s, signed for Brive in the Noughties and transferred to Bayonne in 2012. Has since taken French citizenship and has been capped for the national rugby side 7 times. There is some pretty moving footage of him bursting into tears when being told in the changing rooms post match by the National coach that he had been called up.

    Personally, i identify as being French, Scottish and British. Believe it or not, which one comes first depends on where I am.

    Edit: long story short - Froome *can* be both British and Kenyan. It isn't binary. Which means I can legitimately wind people up by calling him Kenyan.
    Team My Man 2018: David gaudu, Pierre Latour, Romain Bardet, Thibaut pinot, Alexandre Geniez, Florian Senechal, Warren Barguil, Benoit Cosnefroy
  • deejaydeejay Posts: 3,138

    Edit: long story short - Froome *can* be both British and Kenyan. It isn't binary. Which means I can legitimately wind people up by calling him Kenyan.
    He is just another Dual Passport holder that can speak English so I agree with you but who the hell cares.
    Froome (whatever passport he decides to use) is not the GREATEST BRITISH CYCLIST yet and has much further to progress to go.lf
    He may one day be able to qualify for such a title and by then will probably have settled in "HIS" home country.

    Myself :- I'm an Anglo Saxon Englishman.
    Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 1972
  • timoid.timoid. Posts: 3,133

    Myself :- I'm an Anglo Saxon Englishman.


    Really? Never would have guessed...
    It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.

  • Edit: long story short - Froome *can* be both British and Kenyan. It isn't binary. Which means I can legitimately wind people up by calling him Kenyan.
    He is just another Dual Passport holder that can speak English so I agree with you but who the hell cares.
    Froome (whatever passport he decides to use) is not the GREATEST BRITISH CYCLIST yet and has much further to progress to go.lf
    He may one day be able to qualify for such a title and by then will probably have settled in "HIS" home country.

    Myself :- I'm an Anglo Saxon Englishman.


    Descended from those damn immigrants from Denmark, Germany and Holland... :P
  • iainf72iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    A funny one to consider is that when Froome was born, he would've been British immediately. However, Wiggins wouldn't have. Prior to 83, you needed a British father to get it automatically if you were born outside of the UK.

    If he's stayed in Belgium, he probably would've had to go through a citizenship type ceremony later in life.

    The rules were really bonkers before the mid-80's
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • deejaydeejay Posts: 3,138
    Myself :- I'm an Anglo Saxon Englishman.
    Descended from those damn immigrants from Denmark, Germany and Holland... :P
    Yup, German and the Baltic Islands of Denmark but I know not of Holland. ?
    I can understand the Vikings conquering the coast lines around the North Sea as far as Brittany and the Normans then having to sign the Magna Carta 800 years ago.
    Some of these immigrants made England and kicked the romans out.
    At Runnymede Surrey there is a Monument installed by the USA, "American Bar Association erected the Magna Carta Memorial at Runnymede".
    It is round with columns and if you ride your bike from Egham to Windsor you will find it on your left and the River Thames on your right.
    Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 1972
  • frenchfighterfrenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    I've mentioned this before, but I know someone who has known Froome's brothers since they were at school together. I asked him if them consider themselves British or Kenyan. He said he didn't know as he'd never thought to ask, but he personally had always considered them British.

    Are there any Kenyans, real ones, in those posh private places though? Hardly surprising he thought of them as British.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 25,272
    I've mentioned this before, but I know someone who has known Froome's brothers since they were at school together. I asked him if them consider themselves British or Kenyan. He said he didn't know as he'd never thought to ask, but he personally had always considered them British.

    Are there any Kenyans, real ones, in those posh private places though? Hardly surprising he thought of them as British.
    It depends what you mean by 'real' Kenyans. There was an Asian descended one from Mombasa at my posh private place. Four 'real' Nigerians too. Also Thailand, Hong Kong, Singapore... And that was in the 80s.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • frenchfighterfrenchfighter Posts: 30,642

    Edit: long story short - Froome *can* be both British and Kenyan. It isn't binary. Which means I can legitimately wind people up by calling him Kenyan.
    He is just another Dual Passport holder that can speak English so I agree with you but who the hell cares.
    Froome (whatever passport he decides to use) is not the GREATEST BRITISH CYCLIST yet and has much further to progress to go.lf
    He may one day be able to qualify for such a title and by then will probably have settled in "HIS" home country.

    Myself :- I'm an Anglo Saxon Englishman.

    I agree, you can't call him the Great British Cyclist, even if he had a palmares worthy. For me, he can call himself what he likes but I see him as one of those people with no proper Nationality so we shouldn't get too fussed about it. It makes me laugh when Brits (real ones) want to claim him as British despite the fact he has hardly ever step foot in this country - in fact I doubt he has stayed more than a month in total...a few years ago he had only been here twice.

    Nice to meet an Anglo Saxon, last time I met one of those in London I was studying history in primary school. Extreme minority in London unfortunately.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • stagehopperstagehopper Posts: 1,593
    Myself :- I'm an Anglo Saxon Englishman.
    Descended from those damn immigrants from Denmark, Germany and Holland... :P
    Yup, German and the Baltic Islands of Denmark but I know not of Holland. ?
    I can understand the Vikings conquering the coast lines around the North Sea as far as Brittany and the Normans then having to sign the Magna Carta 800 years ago.
    Some of these immigrants made England and kicked the romans out.
    At Runnymede Surrey there is a Monument installed by the USA, "American Bar Association erected the Magna Carta Memorial at Runnymede".
    It is round with columns and if you ride your bike from Egham to Windsor you will find it on your left and the River Thames on your right.

    Whenever this issue is discussed always think back to the 2006 Channel 4 documentary 100% English which looked at people's ancestory via DNA - pretty revelatory to the proudly English born and bred participants re: the constant churn of immigration into the UK over the centuries and how it is reflected in their history:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZ4rpe--i2Q

    (full programme on youtube - quality of picture not the best, but audio good)
  • frenchfighterfrenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    I've mentioned this before, but I know someone who has known Froome's brothers since they were at school together. I asked him if them consider themselves British or Kenyan. He said he didn't know as he'd never thought to ask, but he personally had always considered them British.

    Are there any Kenyans, real ones, in those posh private places though? Hardly surprising he thought of them as British.
    It depends what you mean by 'real' Kenyans. There was an Asian descended one from Mombasa at my posh private place. Four 'real' Nigerians too. Also Thailand, Hong Kong, Singapore... And that was in the 80s.

    Sounds like an odd place you went to. Also didn't have you down as the private school type.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 25,272
    Sounds like an odd place you went to. Also didn't have you down as the private school type.
    Fairly standard for a British public school. They've always had a handful of foreigners - 2% perhaps - 'real' foreigners, not sons of ex-pats. It's probably a lot more these days. They are all rich and speak English.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • mmacavitymmacavity Posts: 781
    Stephen Roche talking about Chris Froome
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJk3ltJLMNc

    Sean Kelly talking about Chris Froome
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-o7uWyqSlEo

    Travis Klok
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwErxwUxLXk
  • deejaydeejay Posts: 3,138
    Whenever this issue is discussed always think back to the 2006 Channel 4 documentary 100% English which looked at people's ancestory via DNA - pretty revelatory to the proudly English born and bred participants re: the constant churn of immigration into the UK over the centuries and how it is reflected in their history:
    Why the hell is so much space spent on the merits or otherwise of this guy froome who at the moment is NOT the greatest GB racing cyclist. ??
    Get back to the OP and your opinions about who is the greatest GB Roadman of their ERA.

    I am expecting Eurosport to start a programe called "PLANET FROOME" anytime now .
    Boring ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ because all your DNA will trace back to Monkeys and Apes.
    Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 1972
  • bompingtonbompington Posts: 7,674
    Boring ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ because all your DNA will trace back to Monkeys and Apes.
    It's just more obvious in some cases than others ;-)
  • mmacavitymmacavity Posts: 781
    Have a read of The Climb by Chris Froome to find out.

    Sean Yates was in the awkward position of trying to explain where Brailsford has been sending mixed messages
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjbB_yARrx0

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/froome-reveals-how-close-he-was-to-leaving-team-sky-in-2011/
  • mike6mike6 Posts: 1,199
    I was born to British parents in another country and I've always considered myself British first and foremost so I find Froome's position quite normal.

    Difference being he doesn't live in the UK and never (as far as I'm aware) has.

    Whatever, if he genuinely feels he's British, then he is. I just never get the impression that he does.

    I dont understand this statement at all. What would he gain from pretending to feel British? His grandparents are British, his parents are British, he is a British passport holder, ergo he is British.
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 7,069
    I was born to British parents in another country and I've always considered myself British first and foremost so I find Froome's position quite normal.

    Difference being he doesn't live in the UK and never (as far as I'm aware) has.

    Whatever, if he genuinely feels he's British, then he is. I just never get the impression that he does.

    I dont understand this statement at all. What would he gain from pretending to feel British? His grandparents are British, his parents are British, he is a British passport holder, ergo he is British.

    I don't think anyone is questioning that he is British...in that sense of the word.
    AFC Mercia women - sign for us
  • Laughter in the room above a pub in Abergavenny the weekend of the British Nats last year. Jack Thurston interviewing Sean Yates, Yates referring to Froome as Kenyan. "Well, come on, he's not British is he, he's Kenyan..."
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 22,639
    Had a date with a girl who's parents are British (from Leeds), but who was born and raised in Holland. She was (furiously) adamant that she is British, with a british passport...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • Had a date with a girl who's parents are British (from Leeds), but who was born and raised in Holland. She was (furiously) adamant that she is British, with a british passport...

    Went well then?
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • deejaydeejay Posts: 3,138
    Well as you all insist on discussing Nationalities and not the OP, so I come to the conclusion there are no Great British riders. ??
    Had a date with a girl who's parents are British (from Leeds), but who was born and raised in Holland. She was (furiously) adamant that she is British, with a british passport...
    She's is an English (Tyke depending on her accent) and her passport is United Kingdom
    (sorry, Un-United Kingdom) which is not a country but the Queens Realm.
    UK is 4 countries for the benifit of those geeks in the US of A (silicon valley) and any other morons. :?
    Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 1972
  • mmacavitymmacavity Posts: 781
    They don't make it easy for Froome to get in and out of the country
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeOeZxWiryM
  • greasedscotsmangreasedscotsman Posts: 7,224
    So is it now Froome?
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