Greatest British Cyclist
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Cavendish being "a bigger name in cycling" isn't the conversation here. And you're correct - cycling isn't all about the GTs... But "Greatness" in cycling is a term generally handed to the GT winners.
Like I said earlier, sheer tally of wins is the accountants way of deciding the pecking order; but to me, the "Great" comes with a whole raft of deeper and more subtle criteria.
Elvis Presley is the biggest name in rock 'n roll by virtue of record sales; but he barely wrote a single one of his hits, and, it could be argued was a pretty white boy singer who made the the most of the racial inequality at play in the US music scene (and society in general) - at a time when far more talented musicians/singers were sidelined because of their colour. So in what way is he "The Greatest"?
Sean Kelly will always stand as a greater rider than Cavendish because of the breadth and quality of his wins. That Cavendish is there at the end of a classic is deemed as an alignment of the stars: that Kelly was there at the end of a classic was almost a given. And how many of Kelly's sprint wins were at the end of a dedicated team of lead out men? He could win on virtually ant terrain and often from a small breakaway group that he probably instigated. The comparisons of Sagan and Kelly are much more pertinent.
He cemented his legacy by winning numerous shorter stage races and 1 GT - to add to all the classics.
Perhaps I wasn't clear before: that a stage race - and particularly a GT - is designed to produce a winner who has beaten all other contenders over a course of such brutal extremes is, in itself, the very measure of greatness that we're arguing the toss over.
Beautifully written. I don't agree, but you've made your point very well.0 -
To borrow from another country, Cipo also won a shed load of GT stages, Milan San Remo and a World Championship, yet I'm not sure many would regard him as being a greater cyclist than Coppi, Bartali and maybe even Moser or Bettini.
Would you put Wiggins and Froome in the same tier as the riders in bold?
For me personally, they'd perhaps be on a par (just about) with Moser and Bettini, but nowhere near Coppi and Bartali.0 -
group that he probably instigated. The comparisons of Sagan and Kelly are much more pertinent.
He cemented his legacy by winning numerous shorter stage races and 1 GT - to add to all the classics.
Perhaps I wasn't clear before: that a stage race - and particularly a GT - is designed to produce a winner who has beaten all other contenders over a course of such brutal extremes is, in itself, the very measure of greatness that we're arguing the toss over.
Still disagree. To take the example of Kelly, his legacy is primarily about his classic wins, yes I know he won the Vuelta and multiple Paris-Nice etc but they are secondary to his wins in the classics. The argument that a stage race measures greatness more than a one day race doesn't stack up - Tour of Poland vs Milan San Remo, Milk Race vs Paris Roubaix...! Put like that it's obvious nonsense but it makes the point.
I'll agree with you there - put like that IS nonsense (and seeks to argue against a point I didn't make). I never claimed that ANY stage race trumps any one day race: but in terms of prestige, any one day race you name will bow before the Tour. What, it seems to me, is being discussed here is: at what point does sheer number of wins out weigh quality of wins when it comes to awarding the title 'Great'?
In terms of Cavendish (except perhaps for his Milan-San Remo win), the vast majority of his wins have been forged from the same mould; sprints at the end of flatter races (by pro standards) led out by a string of dedicated cronies. It's ironic that you mentioned earlier that "cycling is not all about grand tours" seeing as that's where he's amassed most of his wins and reputation.
Like I said before - he's the cymbal player at the end of symphony. And he's brilliant at it. Or another analogy might be Gary Lineker or Alan Sheerer in terms of Goal Scoring Skills vs Comprehensive Footballing Brilliance.
Not only that, we all know that the sprint stages are the sideshow/side salad to the main event.
Secondary? If you mean that he is remembered as predominantly a classics/one day specialist who happened to win a few P-Ns and a GT along the way, because he was so bloody great, then I agree. Same with Moser and same with Bettini, who you mention (although no GT for the latter). But that just strengthens the argument that to be a contender for "Greatness" a rider should have a palmares consisting of more than just sprint wins. In the case of Kelly and Moser, they were all arguably trumped in their career by even greater riders still: Hinault with the former; Merckx the latter. And why? Because of GT credentials. But what does that actually mean? It means they were bested by better climbers and/or better TTers (Race of Truth, you say?) over a course designed to ascertain who is the strongest/greatest/best complete rider over numerous stages.DeVlaeminck wrote:To take the example of Kelly, his legacy is primarily about his classic wins, yes I know he won the Vuelta and multiple Paris-Nice etc but they are secondary to his wins in the classics.
But what is "prestige" - and where does it come from? As you alluded, prestige can't be bestowed on a race overnight. It comes from an evolution of a race's reputation over numerous editions in the eyes of the press and the fans - but precisely BECAUSE it's a test (you can throw in a smidgen of "hype, and marketing bulls1t" too, if you wish).DeVlaeminck wrote:Greatness as a cyclist is measured by winning multiple races with prestige within cycling - the Tour has the most prestige and THAT is why winning it several times makes a cyclist a great, not because it's a test.
Ah yes - Claudio Chiappucci and Thomas Voeckler, etc…DeVlaeminck wrote:So we end up with greatness being about winning prestigious races - being a big name and making a mark in cycling history
If you want to assert that Cav will be seen in the fullness of time as the more significant athlete, or more famous, or more influential, etc, then fine… that might be true: I'm just being a stickler for the term "Great". Until he wins anything other than a sprint, he'll be the Greatest British Road Sprinter, along with Danny MacAskill, the Greatest British Trials Cyclist, Steve Peat - Greatest British Downhiller… etc.
Mano y mano - and without the usual team influences - we saw where Cav sits in a proper hard road race (at the Nat Champs): just behind Kennaugh.0 -
Well you did argue that stage races were the standard by which greatness was judged - maybe you didn't mean the Tour of Poland or the Milk Race but you didn't actually specify stage races with prestige.
OK then you think stage races with prestige are what makes a cyclist great - yes fine I agree if you win a lot of stage races with prestige you are one of the greats - just as if you win lots of one day races with prestige you are one of the greats.
I fully concede that the race with the most prestige by some distance is the Tour de France and for that reason any list of the all time greats will feature a lot of Tour winners. However it will also feature riders without a Tour win or even a Grand Tour win on their palmares, it will include riders who have won multiple monuments.
Cav has not won a Tour but there is huge prestige in having won that many Tour stages and having been recognised as the best sprinter of his generation and possibly of all time. Whether that puts him up there with the very best cyclists of all time is questionable, probably not, but as has been pointed out that is not the question here it is whether he stands comparison to Froome and Wiggins and for my money he edges it. You go on about stage races being a test and of course they are but so are sprint wins - a test neither Froome nor Wiggins would have a prayer of passing.
Finally even if a grand tour were the complete test (rather than these days being a test for climbers who can time trial) why should completeness be the measure of greatness ? Is anyone a more complete rider than Wiggins - but does that put him up there in the half a dozen or so greatest of all time ? Why shouldn't being the best at one thing ever as Cav might well be as great as being a lesser but more "complete" rider.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
Ah… DeVlaeminck!
OK - colours to the mast: any race that habitually ends in a bunch sprint exists primarily as an entertaining interlude whilst the Bigger Boys/Girls have a breather and gather their forces.
There. I said it.
That's the essential truth that the business of professional cycling tries to obscure from the fans because having them give a toss about sprinter's races broadens the revenue stream.
Why do think Cav got his teeth done?
Now that, I agree with...DeVlaeminck wrote:You go on...0 -
The actual truth is that about a third of World Tour race days end in a bunch sprint. It's a major part of what cycling as a sport is and is also probably its most competitive sector.Ah… DeVlaeminck!
OK - colours to the mast: any race that habitually ends in a bunch sprint exists primarily as an entertaining interlude whilst the Bigger Boys/Girls have a breather and gather their forces.
There. I said it.
That's the essential truth that the business of professional cycling tries to obscure from the fans because having them give a toss about sprinter's races broadens the revenue stream.
Why do think Cav got his teeth done?Twitter: @RichN950 -
The actual truth is that about a third of World Tour race days end in a bunch sprint. It's a major part of what cycling as a sport is and is also probably its most competitive sector.Ah… DeVlaeminck!
OK - colours to the mast: any race that habitually ends in a bunch sprint exists primarily as an entertaining interlude whilst the Bigger Boys/Girls have a breather and gather their forces.
There. I said it.
That's the essential truth that the business of professional cycling tries to obscure from the fans because having them give a toss about sprinter's races broadens the revenue stream.
Why do think Cav got his teeth done?
Firstly, define "bunch sprint"...
Secondly, as entertainment industries go, I'll take an output of "2 thirds not being shite" any day...(and this is from someone who loves a bunch sprint)
Thirdly, by suggesting it's the "most competitive", do you mean it's the option most viable for most teams (and why, in World Tour terms, sprint placings matter, yet for most fans, who gives a toss?)?0 -
"Who gives a toss", isn't that just another way of saying what is their place in history ?
I reckon greatness is pretty much who gives a toss, maybe as a whole the thread is trying to be too objective about measuring greatness, the more we discuss it the more I think actually it is just about reputation, your place in history, the impact you make by your achievements and the way you raced.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
The question should really be who are the greatest British cyclists given the wildly varying nature of the sport. And in the modern era (let's call it post-1990) Cavendish, Wiggins, Froome and Cooke all fit that definition. I'd tend to exclude Hoy and Pendleton as they are great track cyclists, but the competitive pool on the track is much smaller whereas the previous four have all had huge success on the biggest of stages.0
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I just thought I'd say this was the best thread in a very long while. Great posts and debate.0
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Danny Macaskill
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z19zFlPah-o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cj6ho1-G6tw
Chris Akrigg
https://vimeo.com/89689947
https://vimeo.com/124738576
https://vimeo.com/20601448
https://vimeo.com/48131951
Martyn Ashton
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZmJtYaUTa0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhabgvIIXik
Sam Pilgrim
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFnpQaVMpFc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HV7DKySsCc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOydqOzehhM0 -
Basically a strava kom[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
So it has to be Ian Steel (Scotland) who won the 1952 Peace Race to beat all the communist riders."Who gives a toss", isn't that just another way of saying what is their place in history ?
An absolutely fantastic feat.Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 19720 -
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To borrow from another country, Cipo also won a shed load of GT stages, Milan San Remo and a World Championship, yet I'm not sure many would regard him as being a greater cyclist than Coppi, Bartali and maybe even Moser or Bettini.
the best self promoter perhaps. was ahead of his time, no doubt on that.0 -
Froome seems confident he will be the greatest ever British Cyclist
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/339027840 -
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Tony Doyle for stopping the rot that was the BCF, leading to the current British Cycling
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/sproat-puts-a-spoke-in-cyclings-big-plans-1312454.html0 -
Yes.Tony Doyle for stopping the rot that was the BCF, leading to the current British Cycling
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/sproat-puts-a-spoke-in-cyclings-big-plans-1312454.htmlBASI Nordic Ski Instructor
Instagramme0 -
WHAT ? the BBC will encourage any rubbish.Froome seems confident he will be the greatest ever British Cyclist
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/33902784
We have had some idiot think he was a greatest with 7 TDF.
We put those fanbois down with, that is feck all compared to the many great riders.
This fella has a long, long way to go,to get the palmares of some of the riders mentioned on this thread and will probably retire before his target.Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 19720 -
WHAT ? the BBC will encourage any rubbish.Froome seems confident he will be the greatest ever British Cyclist
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/33902784
We have had some idiot think he was a greatest with 7 TDF.
We put those fanbois down with, that is feck all compared to the many great riders.
This fella has a long, long way to go,to get the palmares of some of the riders mentioned on this thread and will probably retire before his target.
Did you actually read the article?
The only mention of "Greatest British Cyclist" is in this thread - not in the actual article. I thought he came across as quite humble. Were he to podium at the Vuelta and then again at any of the GTs next year, would that not put this thread to bed (unless Wiggins finally gets that 10 mile TT competition record, obvs)?0 -
I can't gather any enthusiasm for Froome so he'll never be 'the greatest ever British Cyclist' no matter how many times he repeats it in the media.Froome seems confident he will be the greatest ever British Cyclist
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/33902784
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That was my point really, if Froome reaches anywhere near his potential for claiming more GT's this thread will be irrelevant.
WHAT ? the BBC will encourage any rubbish.Froome seems confident he will be the greatest ever British Cyclist
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/33902784
We have had some idiot think he was a greatest with 7 TDF.
We put those fanbois down with, that is feck all compared to the many great riders.
This fella has a long, long way to go,to get the palmares of some of the riders mentioned on this thread and will probably retire before his target.
Did you actually read the article?
The only mention of "Greatest British Cyclist" is in this thread - not in the actual article. I thought he came across as quite humble. Were he to podium at the Vuelta and then again at any of the GTs next year, would that not put this thread to bed (unless Wiggins finally gets that 10 mile TT competition record, obvs)?0
