Greatest British Cyclist
Comments
-
Can't help but feel, that on a global scale, in a few decades time, only Cav will have any significance.
Maybe Froome, if he picks up another tour or more.
... And Simpson, but for other reasons.
0 -
Can't help but feel, that on a global scale, in a few decades time, only Cav will have any significance.
Maybe Froome, if he picks up another tour or more.
... And Simpson, but for other reasons.
Is there a Tour winner who doesn't have "significance"?
I don't think you can knock Wiggins record, for me to surf his way through the EPO era and come out the other side with however many stage race victories to add to being one of Britains most successful Olympians puts him way out in front.
Cooke is probably number 2 for me on account of everything she had she had to do for herself."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
While their are several Tpur winners whose names have faded from history - Aimar, Pingeon and Nencini would be good answers to offer Richard Osman in his quiz show - two time winners are a different kettle of fish.Can't help but feel, that on a global scale, in a few decades time, only Cav will have any significance.
Maybe Froome, if he picks up another tour or more.
Two time winners since the War - there's not a duff name there. Thevenet perhaps the weakest.Twitter: @RichN950 -
I disagree for the following reasons: Brad will always be remembered for being the first Brit to win the tour + winnning olympic golds + road race success. Hoy will always be one of the greatest global olympians and Cav will stand up there as a TdF giant stage winner. Froome is the one who hasn't secured his legacy yet.Can't help but feel, that on a global scale, in a few decades time, only Cav will have any significance.
Maybe Froome, if he picks up another tour or more.
... And Simpson, but for other reasons.'Performance analysis and Froome not being clean was a media driven story. I haven’t heard one guy in the peloton say a negative thing about Froome, and I haven’t heard a single person in the peloton suggest Froome isn’t clean.' TSP0 -
The inventor of the bike
Kirkpatrick Macmillan
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-194239470 -
I disagree for the following reasons: Brad will always be remembered for being the first Brit to win the tour + winnning olympic golds + road race success. Hoy will always be one of the greatest global olympians and Cav will stand up there as a TdF giant stage winner. Froome is the one who hasn't secured his legacy yet.Can't help but feel, that on a global scale, in a few decades time, only Cav will have any significance.
Maybe Froome, if he picks up another tour or more.
... And Simpson, but for other reasons.
I reckon he could pack in tomorrow and winning the same number of Tours as Fingnon would probably be a good enough legacy"In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
Look what he started........ !!!The inventor of the bike
Kirkpatrick Macmillan
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-19423947
'Performance analysis and Froome not being clean was a media driven story. I haven’t heard one guy in the peloton say a negative thing about Froome, and I haven’t heard a single person in the peloton suggest Froome isn’t clean.' TSP0 -
For years GB means nothing in road cycling and to compensate people had to imagine olympics and stuff means something.
Ask any non GB person who the biggest GB cyclist ever is, 99,99999% will answer Froome.
No they would still say Wiggins Hoy or Cavendish, possibly Pendleton.
Not the Monaco tax dodger.+++++++++++++++++++++
we are the proud, the few, Descendents.
Panama - finally putting a nail in the economic theory of the trickle down effect.0 -
As the question is "Greatest British cyclist", not best, or who has won the most races, I will have to go for Wiggins. He is the one who trancends the sport. People who know nothing about cycle racing have heard of Wiggo, he is the only one who is an icon, so to speak. Followed by Cavendish cos he has won so many races. My none cycling friends constantly ask how many races he has won this year as they expect him to tot up the victories. Great sports people capture the imagination of the none sporting public, Wiggins has done that and he did it by winning the big events, not by being a "celebrity".0
-
Cavendish is the only who can realistically claim to have been perhaps the best ever in his speciality, worldwide. Cav may well have been the best sprinter ever, of any nation. Wiggins and Froome clearly are not the best worldwide GC riders[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19667136#p19667136]disgruntledgoat[/url] wrote:Wiggins 2012 has to be the best single season by a British cyclist of all times.
But does one swallow make a summer?
Still Cavendish for me. Surprised no one else agrees!0 -
I don't disagree but wiggins does have a huge range of talents and results. Incredible track pedigree, hour record, the Tour, TTs. Just needed a good one day race or two.
Cavendish is the only who can realistically claim to have been perhaps the best ever in his speciality, worldwide. Cav may well have been the best sprinter ever, of any nation. Wiggins and Froome clearly are not the best worldwide GC riders[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19667136#p19667136]disgruntledgoat[/url] wrote:Wiggins 2012 has to be the best single season by a British cyclist of all times.
But does one swallow make a summer?
Still Cavendish for me. Surprised no one else agrees!0 -
It ultimately boils down to personal subjective opinions on the importance of any given event, whether it's only wins that should count, etc. As this thread demonstrates it's interesting to discuss/argue about, but everyone is going to make up their mind in the endThat's the other thing, for those that place Millar higher an Simpson, what did he win that outranks Simpson's monuments and World Champs?
This is a genuine point, and not trolling, but does the fact it is proven that Simpson took PEDs have a bearing on his ranking?
Having done both, i d question whether speed and booze are PED's :oops:
Nicole Cooke and Simpson (and poss Hoban) are beyond doubt the greatest British cyclists, they all were trail blazers, won against their peers and didnt have the support of their rivals (NC especially)
BB was superb but to be called a true "greatest" ? she was born a decade or two to early, we ll never know.
Froome and Wiggins? lets see what the fulness of time brings, Cav should be a contender for top spot too.0 -
I don't disagree but wiggins does have a huge range of talents and results. Incredible track pedigree, hour record, the Tour, TTs. Just needed a good one day race or two.
Cavendish is the only who can realistically claim to have been perhaps the best ever in his speciality, worldwide. Cav may well have been the best sprinter ever, of any nation. Wiggins and Froome clearly are not the best worldwide GC riders[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19667136#p19667136]disgruntledgoat[/url] wrote:Wiggins 2012 has to be the best single season by a British cyclist of all times.
But does one swallow make a summer?
Still Cavendish for me. Surprised no one else agrees!
But Indurain more than has Wiggins covered: he won more tours, more GTs, same number of world TTs (it only started in 1994), the world hour record (against strong opposition), the odd classic and he was on the podium multiple times at the worlds! So, the only thing that Wiggins has done that Indurain hasn't is some track which simply isn't as competitive.
That's without even considering Merkcx, Hinault, Lemond etc.0 -
I don't disagree but wiggins does have a huge range of talents and results. Incredible track pedigree, hour record, the Tour, TTs. Just needed a good one day race or two.
Cavendish is the only who can realistically claim to have been perhaps the best ever in his speciality, worldwide. Cav may well have been the best sprinter ever, of any nation. Wiggins and Froome clearly are not the best worldwide GC riders[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19667136#p19667136]disgruntledgoat[/url] wrote:Wiggins 2012 has to be the best single season by a British cyclist of all times.
But does one swallow make a summer?
Still Cavendish for me. Surprised no one else agrees!
But Indurain more than has Wiggins covered: he won more tours, more GTs, same number of world TTs (it only started in 1994), the world hour record (against strong opposition), the odd classic and he was on the podium multiple times at the worlds! So, the only thing that Wiggins has done that Indurain hasn't is some track which simply isn't as competitive.
That's without even considering Merkcx, Hinault, Lemond etc.
Indurain, Merckx, Hinault and Lemond not being British means I'm unsure what bearing their results have on this though..."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19671472#p19671472]disgruntledgoat[/url] wrote:
Indurain, Merckx, Hinault and Lemond not being British means I'm unsure what bearing their results have on this though...
Er, the quoted bit. Wiggins is not the best GC rider ever, but Cavendish might be the best sprinter.0 -
Ignore me, I'm having a bad day[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19671472#p19671472]disgruntledgoat[/url] wrote:
Indurain, Merckx, Hinault and Lemond not being British means I'm unsure what bearing their results have on this though...
Er, the quoted bit. Wiggins is not the best GC rider ever, but Cavendish might be the best sprinter."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
Procycling magazine has gone big on Brad being the best ever.
I did a piece on him on road.cc a while back and took some right pelters for suggesting he was the best British rider of all time.
He broke a lot of new ground and made things possible for other riders to achieve, so he will always get a high ranking for that in my eyes.0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19671495#p19671495]disgruntledgoat[/url] wrote:
Ignore me, I'm having a bad day[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19671472#p19671472]disgruntledgoat[/url] wrote:
Indurain, Merckx, Hinault and Lemond not being British means I'm unsure what bearing their results have on this though...
Er, the quoted bit. Wiggins is not the best GC rider ever, but Cavendish might be the best sprinter.
Er yes, the poster was saying Wiggins is clearly not the best GT rider ever, so I still dont see your point in bringing up Merckx etc? Its the best British rider.0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19671495#p19671495]disgruntledgoat[/url] wrote:
Ignore me, I'm having a bad day[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19671472#p19671472]disgruntledgoat[/url] wrote:
Indurain, Merckx, Hinault and Lemond not being British means I'm unsure what bearing their results have on this though...
Er, the quoted bit. Wiggins is not the best GC rider ever, but Cavendish might be the best sprinter.
Er yes, the poster was saying Wiggins is clearly not the best GT rider ever, so I still dont see your point in bringing up Merckx etc? Its the best British rider.
Not only that - being a phenomenal sprinter versus being a phenomenal GT winner doesn't stack up in the "Greatness" stakes - even if you are the best sprinter in history.
What about the best bunny-hopper? Or the best round the World cyclist? Sprinting is a cycling niche.
The GC competition in GTs has evolved into the ultimate means of establishing greatness amongst road cyclists - in much the same way that it was discovered in 'Hitchhiker's Guide To The Universe' that planet Earth was built as the ultimate super-computer to calculate what the ultimate question to the ultimate answer to Life is.0 -
I'm sure Beryl Burton has been mentioned elsewhere in this thread but not too keen on reading back through the whole thing.
Beryl's achievements pre-date my interest in cycling by many years so there is not much I can say about her. However, in my time watching British riders I'd say this for my all time list:
Best British track cylist: Hoy
Best British road cyclist: Cav
Best British cyclist: Wiggo.You only need two tools: WD40 and Duck Tape.
If it doesn't move and should, use the WD40.
If it shouldn't move and does, use the tape.0 -
And stops being Kenyan.Still Wiggo for me, Froome has potential if he diversifies a bit or does a double.
This.0 -
Cavendish is the only who can realistically claim to have been perhaps the best ever in his speciality, worldwide. Cav may well have been the best sprinter ever, of any nation. Wiggins and Froome clearly are not the best worldwide GC riders[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19667136#p19667136]disgruntledgoat[/url] wrote:Wiggins 2012 has to be the best single season by a British cyclist of all times.
But does one swallow make a summer?
Still Cavendish for me. Surprised no one else agrees!
Jeez - put him in his grave already
0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19671495#p19671495]disgruntledgoat[/url] wrote:
Ignore me, I'm having a bad day[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19671472#p19671472]disgruntledgoat[/url] wrote:
Indurain, Merckx, Hinault and Lemond not being British means I'm unsure what bearing their results have on this though...
Er, the quoted bit. Wiggins is not the best GC rider ever, but Cavendish might be the best sprinter.
Er yes, the poster was saying Wiggins is clearly not the best GT rider ever, so I still dont see your point in bringing up Merckx etc? Its the best British rider.
Not only that - being a phenomenal sprinter versus being a phenomenal GT winner doesn't stack up in the "Greatness" stakes - even if you are the best sprinter in history.
What about the best bunny-hopper? Or the best round the World cyclist? Sprinting is a cycling niche.
The GC competition in GTs has evolved into the ultimate means of establishing greatness amongst road cyclists - in much the same way that it was discovered in 'Hitchhiker's Guide To The Universe' that planet Earth was built as the ultimate super-computer to calculate what the ultimate question to the ultimate answer to Life is.
I reckon the posts making the point that Cav will be a bigger name in cycling history than Froome or Wiggins trump your argument about grand tours. Cycling is not all about grand tours or else Sean Kelly wouldn't be one of the greats, and anyone that argues he isn't better have a good argument to explain why everyone else is wrong in thinking he is.
In terms of the sport I reckon I'm persuaded that if they all stopped riding now then Cav is the greatest, but within the UK alone it's probably Wiggins because his track medals probably have a higher profile here and he was the first British British Tour winner. Froome would have to go on and win some more, it's very possible he will but he's not there yet.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19675252#p19675252]The Loyal Lieutenant[/url] wrote:
And stops being Kenyan.Still Wiggo for me, Froome has potential if he diversifies a bit or does a double.
This.
But he isnt is he. He is a British passport holder, so he is British. Both of his grandparents were British and both of his parents are British, so its a none argument. Where he has lived or gone to school is irrelevant. Wiggins dad wasnt British but I dont hear anyone banging on about him. You are what your passport says you are. My great great grandfather was a Breton but that is also meaningless, I am British (English actualy but thats another story).0 -
Track shmack.
Road is what matters.
Cav or Froome.
TBH, given where UK cycling was back in 2005, it's incredible that the debate is over the greatest ever sprinter vs two Tour winners.0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19671495#p19671495]disgruntledgoat[/url] wrote:
Ignore me, I'm having a bad day[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19671472#p19671472]disgruntledgoat[/url] wrote:
Indurain, Merckx, Hinault and Lemond not being British means I'm unsure what bearing their results have on this though...
Er, the quoted bit. Wiggins is not the best GC rider ever, but Cavendish might be the best sprinter.
Er yes, the poster was saying Wiggins is clearly not the best GT rider ever, so I still dont see your point in bringing up Merckx etc? Its the best British rider.
Not only that - being a phenomenal sprinter versus being a phenomenal GT winner doesn't stack up in the "Greatness" stakes - even if you are the best sprinter in history.
What about the best bunny-hopper? Or the best round the World cyclist? Sprinting is a cycling niche.
The GC competition in GTs has evolved into the ultimate means of establishing greatness amongst road cyclists - in much the same way that it was discovered in 'Hitchhiker's Guide To The Universe' that planet Earth was built as the ultimate super-computer to calculate what the ultimate question to the ultimate answer to Life is.
I reckon the posts making the point that Cav will be a bigger name in cycling history than Froome or Wiggins trump your argument about grand tours. Cycling is not all about grand tours or else Sean Kelly wouldn't be one of the greats, and anyone that argues he isn't better have a good argument to explain why everyone else is wrong in thinking he is.
In terms of the sport I reckon I'm persuaded that if they all stopped riding now then Cav is the greatest, but within the UK alone it's probably Wiggins because his track medals probably have a higher profile here and he was the first British British Tour winner. Froome would have to go on and win some more, it's very possible he will but he's not there yet.
Cavendish being "a bigger name in cycling" isn't the conversation here. And you're correct - cycling isn't all about the GTs... But "Greatness" in cycling is a term generally handed to the GT winners.
Like I said earlier, sheer tally of wins is the accountants way of deciding the pecking order; but to me, the "Great" comes with a whole raft of deeper and more subtle criteria.
Elvis Presley is the biggest name in rock 'n roll by virtue of record sales; but he barely wrote a single one of his hits, and, it could be argued was a pretty white boy singer who made the the most of the racial inequality at play in the US music scene (and society in general) - at a time when far more talented musicians/singers were sidelined because of their colour. So in what way is he "The Greatest"?
Sean Kelly will always stand as a greater rider than Cavendish because of the breadth and quality of his wins. That Cavendish is there at the end of a classic is deemed as an alignment of the stars: that Kelly was there at the end of a classic was almost a given. And how many of Kelly's sprint wins were at the end of a dedicated team of lead out men? He could win on virtually ant terrain and often from a small breakaway group that he probably instigated. The comparisons of Sagan and Kelly are much more pertinent.
He cemented his legacy by winning numerous shorter stage races and 1 GT - to add to all the classics.
Perhaps I wasn't clear before: that a stage race - and particularly a GT - is designed to produce a winner who has beaten all other contenders over a course of such brutal extremes is, in itself, the very measure of greatness that we're arguing the toss over.0 -
To borrow from another country, Cipo also won a shed load of GT stages, Milan San Remo and a World Championship, yet I'm not sure many would regard him as being a greater cyclist than Coppi, Bartali and maybe even Moser or Bettini.0
-
To borrow from another country, Cipo also won a shed load of GT stages, Milan San Remo and a World Championship, yet I'm not sure many would regard him as being a greater cyclist than Coppi, Bartali and maybe even Moser or Bettini.
Would you put Wiggins and Froome in the same tier as the riders in bold?“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
group that he probably instigated. The comparisons of Sagan and Kelly are much more pertinent.
He cemented his legacy by winning numerous shorter stage races and 1 GT - to add to all the classics.
Perhaps I wasn't clear before: that a stage race - and particularly a GT - is designed to produce a winner who has beaten all other contenders over a course of such brutal extremes is, in itself, the very measure of greatness that we're arguing the toss over.
Still disagree. To take the example of Kelly, his legacy is primarily about his classic wins, yes I know he won the Vuelta and multiple Paris-Nice etc but they are secondary to his wins in the classics. The argument that a stage race measures greatness more than a one day race doesn't stack up - Tour of Poland vs Milan San Remo, Milk Race vs Paris Roubaix...! Put like that it's obvious nonsense but it makes the point.
Greatness as a cyclist is measured by winning multiple races with prestige within cycling - the Tour has the most prestige and THAT is why winning it several times makes a cyclist a great, not because it's a test. The RAAM is a test or the year long record but most people (I know one did !) would not choose riders who hold records in these events as cycling greats.
Your argument implies that the best classics riders who don't also win stage races are less great than riders who bag a few week long stage races or maybe a Vuelta - ultimately it's subjective but I reckon by that measure you'd have a list of greats that not many would agree with. So we end up with greatness being about winning prestigious races - being a big name and making a mark in cycling history - I reckon other posters have made the case that Cav has done that. Within the UK though Wiggins probably edges it as there is always a cachet attached to being the first and I do think the prestige of track medals is bigger over here than elsewhere in cycling.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
To borrow from another country, Cipo also won a shed load of GT stages, Milan San Remo and a World Championship, yet I'm not sure many would regard him as being a greater cyclist than Coppi, Bartali and maybe even Moser or Bettini.
Would you put Wiggins and Froome in the same tier as the riders in bold?
Coppi and Bartali have more impressive palmares than Cipo even if you ignore their grand tour overall wins anyway so those two are on another planet in terms of greatness. Moser is another who for me is above any UK cyclist ever. Bettini vs Cav I'd be happy to listen to the arguments either way - Cav's record is already better than Cipo so I guess the answer is I'd put all four of those above above Froome or Wiggins.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0
