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Fuelling for evening 10TT events

andyebandyeb Posts: 407
Those of you who do 10TT events in the evenings - how do you fuel for these?

If I have an early-ish dinner, my legs are heavy and I end up cramping before I'm 3 miles in (as I did this evening on a practice run). If I don't eat beforehand, I know I'll run out of steam.

I appreciate these evening events are timed to enable people to get home from work in time, but from every other point of view, they seem like a very inconvenient time of day for a hard effort.

I also find my heart rate is as much as 5 or 6% down during the evenings, which really throws the spanner in the works for pacing - that's the difference between going waaay to hard off the line and nailing it. Unfortunately a power meter remains firmly out of reach.
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  • diydiy Posts: 6,680
    caffeine and energy drink and no food since lunch time. The last thing you want is your stomach digesting your tea.
  • NapoleonDNapoleonD Posts: 18,632
    It's less than 30 mins effort, you don't need fuelling past lunch!
    Twitter - @NapD
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  • slowbikeslowbike Posts: 8,490
    It's less than 30 mins effort, you don't need fuelling past lunch!

    Ah - yes, but when I finish my lunch by 10am I kinda need something before a 1930 start .... ;)
  • NapoleonDNapoleonD Posts: 18,632
    It's less than 30 mins effort, you don't need fuelling past lunch!

    Ah - yes, but when I finish my lunch by 10am I kinda need something before a 1930 start .... ;)

    You might want it, but you don't need it. You'll burn at most 400 calories in a 10 mile TT including warm up.

    Edit: or eat your lunch at lunch time.
    Twitter - @NapD
    Strava - Alex Taylor (sportstest.co.uk)
    ABCC Cycling Coach
  • supermurph09supermurph09 Posts: 2,471
    Club 10 tonight. Here is what I'll eat

    Approximately 3 litres of water consumed during the day, lucazade sipped on way to the race (I drive).
    6am Breakfast, Granola and 1 slice of toast
    9am Double Decker and a Diet Pepsi (caffeine free)
    12pm Lunch, Home made sandwich (tiger bread) of ham and beetroot, packet of Pom Bear crisps
    3pm, small bowl of granola
    6pm, banana
    6:45pm, wiggle caffeine gel
    7pm - 7:15pm Race

    I hate having an empty feeling in my stomach, the above will mean I feel like I've eaten without being bloated. I'm 6ft, 73KG.
  • andyebandyeb Posts: 407
    Club 10 tonight. Here is what I'll eat

    Approximately 3 litres of water consumed during the day, lucazade sipped on way to the race (I drive).
    6am Breakfast, Granola and 1 slice of toast
    9am Double Decker and a Diet Pepsi (caffeine free)
    12pm Lunch, Home made sandwich (tiger bread) of ham and beetroot, packet of Pom Bear crisps
    3pm, small bowl of granola
    6pm, banana
    6:45pm, wiggle caffeine gel
    7pm - 7:15pm Race

    I hate having an empty feeling in my stomach, the above will mean I feel like I've eaten without being bloated. I'm 6ft, 73KG.

    That's useful insight - thanks! What do you do training wise (if anything) in the days leading up to a 10TT? Do you taper at all?
  • supermurph09supermurph09 Posts: 2,471
    Club 10 tonight. Here is what I'll eat

    Approximately 3 litres of water consumed during the day, lucazade sipped on way to the race (I drive).
    6am Breakfast, Granola and 1 slice of toast
    9am Double Decker and a Diet Pepsi (caffeine free)
    12pm Lunch, Home made sandwich (tiger bread) of ham and beetroot, packet of Pom Bear crisps
    3pm, small bowl of granola
    6pm, banana
    6:45pm, wiggle caffeine gel
    7pm - 7:15pm Race

    I hate having an empty feeling in my stomach, the above will mean I feel like I've eaten without being bloated. I'm 6ft, 73KG.

    That's useful insight - thanks! What do you do training wise (if anything) in the days leading up to a 10TT? Do you taper at all?

    If it's a race I'm targeting my training will be tailored around it so yes, effectively a taper. As a different example I'll be coming to the end of a 5 week training plan on the 10th July and will be doing an FTP test to see how it's gone, so it's important for me to not overdo it that week. Sat, 2 hours tempo, Sun, steady ride, Mon, recovery, Tuesday, a hard 40 minutes, Wed, rest day, Thursday, pre-race routine and then test Friday. I guess you could substitute the test for race and it'd be similar. My normal week would include 4 very hard sessions, 2 hours, 1 hour, 2 x 20's and maybe another hour or race.

    Whilst I'm sure their are guidelines, nutrition is very individual, I'd say I eat quite a lot but then again I seem to function ok. I need to cut out the rubbish though!
  • mpattsmpatts Posts: 962
    My event prep food day:

    Morning Porridge and coffee
    Mid morning banana and coffee
    Lunchtime baked spud and beans*
    Mid afternoon snack (usually greek yoghurt and granola), more fruit
    Pre event, an hour or so before I might have a small bowl of cereal if I feel hungry.

    Plenty of water all day. Plenty.

    A 20-25 minute effort, unless you haven't eaten all day or the day before, is unlikely to need anything special (or indeed during)


    *This is my one 'treat' on TT/race days, normally it's soup. I'm 64kg, and although I'm not obsessed with weight I try not to eat to much.
    Insert bike here:
  • andyebandyeb Posts: 407
    Much the same as a normal day, this would be:

    Breakfast: Full English fry-up
    Lunch: Sausage bloomer with onions
    Tea: After work takeaway fish and chips, usually followed by a pint in the pub.
    Race
    Dinner: Roast chicken plus trimmings, a couple of pints of cold recovery beverage from the fridge.

    I weight 62kg, I'm 5'11"

    :lol:
  • supermurph09supermurph09 Posts: 2,471
    Much the same as a normal day, this would be:

    Breakfast: Full English fry-up
    Lunch: Sausage bloomer with onions
    Tea: After work takeaway fish and chips, usually followed by a pint in the pub.
    Race
    Dinner: Roast chicken plus trimmings, a couple of pints of cold recovery beverage from the fridge.

    I weight 62kg, I'm 5'11"

    :lol:

    Overdid it with the onions imo.
  • paul2718paul2718 Posts: 471
    I'm not a serious TT'r. Last event was 307 calories warm up, 437 event. I think a gel 10 minutes before isn't harmful. YMMV.

    Most important thing is warm up, you're not actually fuelling for this length.

    Paul
  • jgsijgsi Posts: 5,026
    Take a dump pre race.. more efficacious.
    Not very often get a chance to use the word efficacious.
    If you think I am overthinking things... correct.. just like yourself.
  • andyebandyeb Posts: 407
    Take a dump pre race.. more efficacious.
    Not very often get a chance to use the word efficacious.
    If you think I am overthinking things... correct.. just like yourself.

    Well since you ask, come to think of it, I did yesterday.

    What's that, sorry? Too much information? :P
  • GrillGrill Posts: 5,610
    Night before a 10:
    - Pizza. Maybe two depending on if they're on offer.
    - Ben and Jerry's. Flavour depends on the district with U courses requiring peanut butter and R courses needing some sort of chocolate with cookie dough or brownies in it.

    Day of the 10:
    - Take a huge dump
    - Drink lots of water
    - Hate myself for a couple hours because of my dinner the night before.
    - Oh look, cookies!
    - censored I'm late...
    - Skip warm-up and set PB

    Pretty easy really.
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • CYCLESPORT1CYCLESPORT1 Posts: 471
    Just do it, after having a butty in't afternoon ---- it's only a club 10 ffs
  • NapoleonDNapoleonD Posts: 18,632
    Think if it as nipping out for about 25 minutes (give or take a few) on the bike.

    Because that's all it is.

    Yesterday, ate my normal food. 15 minute warm up. All time PB (never thought I'd be faster than before I broke my back). Pint of Guinness in the pub after.
    Twitter - @NapD
    Strava - Alex Taylor (sportstest.co.uk)
    ABCC Cycling Coach
  • andyebandyeb Posts: 407
    Think if it as nipping out for about 25 minutes (give or take a few) on the bike.

    Because that's all it is.

    Yesterday, ate my normal food. 15 minute warm up. All time PB (never thought I'd be faster than before I broke my back). Pint of Guinness in the pub after.

    I take your point. But when you think you are setup for a PB, after a nice easy long warmup and then blow up with cramp after 2 miles, is it not completely reasonable to try and workout what went wrong and what lessons can be learned for next time?
  • bobmcstuffbobmcstuff Posts: 8,859
    I appreciate these evening events are timed to enable people to get home from work in time, but from every other point of view, they seem like a very inconvenient time of day for a hard effort.

    I also find my heart rate is as much as 5 or 6% down during the evenings, which really throws the spanner in the works for pacing - that's the difference between going waaay to hard off the line and nailing it. Unfortunately a power meter remains firmly out of reach.

    I'm exactly the opposite, I am much faster later in the day than earlier - it's the best time of day for me! I guess it's impossible to have a time which works for everyone.
  • I take your point. But when you think you are setup for a PB, after a nice easy long warmup and then blow up with cramp after 2 miles, is it not completely reasonable to try and workout what went wrong and what lessons can be learned for next time?

    Muscles cramp for various reasons.
    In my experience, the main reason is working the muscle harder than it is used to. It sounds like you are going off too hard to me. I would look at that rather than necking Gels and Carb drinks for a 10 mile TT.
  • diydiy Posts: 6,680
    Did I miss the bit where the OP said he was suffering from diabetes and high cholesterol :lol:

    and I thought my diet on eat days was censored ;)

    seriously though, cramps are far more likely to be overworked muscle that sugar/salt/dehydration. In any case a standard energy drink would fix the hydration issue.

    I'm at least 10% faster on empty than I am on full and I can go just as hard for up to 1.5 - 2 hours.

    The thing that gets me though is heat - was riding hard last night and and was 20% down on power/puff and HR.
  • andyebandyeb Posts: 407
    Did I miss the bit where the OP said he was suffering from diabetes and high cholesterol :lol:

    And if I, or anyone else was, would it really be a laughing matter?
    seriously though, cramps are far more likely to be overworked muscle that sugar/salt/dehydration. In any case a standard energy drink would fix the hydration issue.

    I'm at least 10% faster on empty than I am on full and I can go just as hard for up to 1.5 - 2 hours.

    The thing that gets me though is heat - was riding hard last night and and was 20% down on power/puff and HR.

    Heat may also have been an issue and potentially a contributing factor to my HR being lower than normal; I was starting to breathe properly at 78% rather than 85%.

    To test the fuelling theory, I did a harder fasted ride before breakfast this morning and was able to go harder than I expected for 50 mins. I normally keep fasted rides in Z2 but will see how much difference going harder makes to recovery.

    When I bailed due to cramp, I was 30s behind my previous PR of 28:01 according to Virtual Partner on my Garmin and I know I'm in better overall shape now than when I set that PR. It has however been over a year since my last 10TT attempt. HCC123A is not a fast course FWIW.
  • NapoleonDNapoleonD Posts: 18,632
    andyeb wrote:
    seriously though, cramps are far more likely to be overworked muscle that sugar/salt/dehydration. In any case a standard energy drink would fix the hydration issue.

    I'm at least 10% faster on empty than I am on full and I can go just as hard for up to 1.5 - 2 hours.

    The thing that gets me though is heat - was riding hard last night and and was 20% down on power/puff and HR.

    Heat may also have been an issue and potentially a contributing factor to my HR being lower than normal; I was starting to breathe properly at 78% rather than 85%.

    To test the fuelling theory, I did a harder fasted ride before breakfast this morning and was able to go harder than I expected for 50 mins. I normally keep fasted rides in Z2 but will see how much difference going harder makes to recovery.

    When I bailed due to cramp, I was 30s behind my previous PR of 28:01 according to Virtual Partner on my Garmin and I know I'm in better overall shape now than when I set that PR. It has however been over a year since my last 10TT attempt. HCC123A is not a fast course FWIW.[/quote]

    Potentially chronically dehydrated.
    Potentially went out too hard.
    Potentially just a shock to the body.
    Potentially coming down with something.

    Or any combination of all 4.

    The course doesn't look slow either FWIW ;)
    Twitter - @NapD
    Strava - Alex Taylor (sportstest.co.uk)
    ABCC Cycling Coach
  • crakercraker Posts: 2,060
    I dropped my seatpost by 1cm and got a 30 sec. PB on Tuesday (from not very good to slightly better). There's all sorts of variables at work of course, but bike position is something that will make a big difference to muscle effectiveness.
  • dilatorydilatory Posts: 565
    Most weeknight races start around the 7 p.m. / 7.30 p.m. mark. My usual plan of attack is lunch at 12.30, a banana at around 4ish. If the race is a decent drive away (not getting home 'til gone 9, I'll probably have half a sandwich around 5.30/6ish (and the other half afterwards), making sure to keep fluids up. If I'm riding there I'll treat it as a usual nutrition for a ride. About half an hour before I'm due to start I'll take an energy gel + caffeine and then I'm good to go.
  • jgsijgsi Posts: 5,026
    I dropped my seatpost by 1cm and got a 30 sec. PB on Tuesday (from not very good to slightly better). There's all sorts of variables at work of course, but bike position is something that will make a big difference to muscle effectiveness.

    1cm is a big, even huge correction.... were your hips waddling like a ducks ar se all this time?
  • I dropped my seatpost by 1cm and got a 30 sec. PB on Tuesday (from not very good to slightly better). There's all sorts of variables at work of course, but bike position is something that will make a big difference to muscle effectiveness.

    1cm is a big, even huge correction.... were your hips waddling like a ducks ar se all this time?

    I'd imagine a significant amount of knee pain as well
    I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles
  • iron-cloveriron-clover Posts: 737
    I don't do anything special for evening 10's, normal lunch, and I take a cereal bar or two along with me- one to eat at least 30 mins before starting (helps me to not feel peckish around what would normally be food time, plus apparently having something in your stomach helps burn more fat than glycogen- although it's pretty immaterial
    for 10 miles...)

    Making sure you're hydrated is more important tbh.

    Also, the afternoon/ early evening is in theory the best time to be doing excersize- your body will be at it's highest temperature and your blood/ cardiovascular system will be better prepared. Apparently more heart attacks occur in the morning because of this- I'll grant you anyone doing a TT is highly unlikely to keep over at any time of the day, but it shows the effect of time of day on the body.
  • I dropped my seatpost by 1cm and got a 30 sec. PB on Tuesday (from not very good to slightly better). There's all sorts of variables at work of course, but bike position is something that will make a big difference to muscle effectiveness.
    And aerodynamics.
  • okgookgo Posts: 4,368
    It's less than 30 mins effort, you don't need fuelling past lunch!

    Ah - yes, but when I finish my lunch by 10am I kinda need something before a 1930 start .... ;)

    You might want it, but you don't need it. You'll burn at most 400 calories in a 10 mile TT including warm up.

    Edit: or eat your lunch at lunch time.

    That is very dependant on many things, I can tell you that a warm up I would typically do and then a 10 would be considerably more than that probably 3 times as much as that in fact! So I always have a gel during the late part of a warm up.

    But for a midweek event, I would just eat usually and perhaps grab a couple of bananas or flapjack and eat a bit of that an hour or so before? Not life or death stuff, but worth eating something just to make sure you feel ok I reckon
    Blog on my first and now second season of proper riding/racing - www.firstseasonracing.com
  • diydiy Posts: 6,680
    A typical 70kg man has 1,800 calories of available energy stored. About 5-10% is in the blood, 20-25% in the liver and the rest in the muscles. So 1,000 Calories can be delivered pretty easily without any effort spent converting fat to energy. Chances are even then you'll get a bit of fat used.

    The "Thermic" effect of food, means that the body consumes between 10 - 30% of the calories in digestion (so thats alone could add 5-10% extra effort during the TT. However, the main reason not to bulk up before is the insulin shoved in to your blood as a result of the high glycemic load, which causes an energy crash.
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