Aero road bikes...part deux (part one was in 198x)
Record11Ti
Posts: 74
So the new Venge is there. Sure, it will be outlandishly spendy (and deserved Super Record)...BUT
The "Aero" road bike thing started better than two decades ago. Bikes like the "GT Superbike" and many others brought (presumed) aero to the peloton. Things were cool. Specialized came out with the tri spoke wheel that was advertizing "Less wind resistance at 30mph than turning the page of this magazine" and "tested by NASA"...both true statements, but...one was simply not true and NASA had the only available slow speed wind tunnel that was "for rent" (that wheel is still available from Steve and his guys at HED).
More and more funny bikes came out...and the UCI came in. Hard. No more Tri Spokes in the peloton (after a few wrecks that body parts went into the wheels...cant fit a leg through a 32 spoke wheel). So, for decades people like Gerard Vroonman (and Phil White) did what was smart for them - design aero bikes for the non-UCI market. Ironman. The bikes were simply FAST (in the wind tunnel). The P3, P3C, P4 and on...very special bikes that were very fast...well, until you put the wrong rider on one. (Not everyone can bend over like Bjorn Anderssen).
I back up. I was lucky enough to be on a team that provided some of the first carbon fiber bikes out there. There were two, the Allez and the Cadex (both pretty much the same bike, made by the same people, at the same time, in the same building). They were neat...they broke (all the time). But, technology moved forward and bikes got more stable (Kestral making huge strides in carbon fiber, and aero with the 4000 tested primarily at RAAM).
So - back to the new bike. This bike is as fast as a Shiv...well...those tests are WITH OUT A RIDER. The bike could very well be "Slower" than a standard round tube modern frame when you cant get a human body to contort to it. I am not just talking about hip angle and elbow angle. How about how the hands break the wind over the bars. The legs break the wind around the seat tube...this will vary for every rider on earth. We are talking numbers here that can alter based on if you shaved your legs today or not.
I really think that we are at the point that some of these numbers are so specialized (no pun intended) that we can compare them to a drag race car. Can the car go X fast? Sure...with THAT driver. Put me in that car and it wont go any faster than any other car I have driven (cause I am not that pro driver it was designed for). Then there is the precipice of "aero over comfort". I can ride a P4 to a very nice 40k TT time...kills me at Ironman (cant stay in that position that long).
So, my question is...do we buy the magic and get a new loan? Where does reality take over? (and it makes me mad when I see a dude 40lbs over weight sitting upright at a race on an "aero demon carbon/ti pro 9000" bike with electronic shifting.
The "Aero" road bike thing started better than two decades ago. Bikes like the "GT Superbike" and many others brought (presumed) aero to the peloton. Things were cool. Specialized came out with the tri spoke wheel that was advertizing "Less wind resistance at 30mph than turning the page of this magazine" and "tested by NASA"...both true statements, but...one was simply not true and NASA had the only available slow speed wind tunnel that was "for rent" (that wheel is still available from Steve and his guys at HED).
More and more funny bikes came out...and the UCI came in. Hard. No more Tri Spokes in the peloton (after a few wrecks that body parts went into the wheels...cant fit a leg through a 32 spoke wheel). So, for decades people like Gerard Vroonman (and Phil White) did what was smart for them - design aero bikes for the non-UCI market. Ironman. The bikes were simply FAST (in the wind tunnel). The P3, P3C, P4 and on...very special bikes that were very fast...well, until you put the wrong rider on one. (Not everyone can bend over like Bjorn Anderssen).
I back up. I was lucky enough to be on a team that provided some of the first carbon fiber bikes out there. There were two, the Allez and the Cadex (both pretty much the same bike, made by the same people, at the same time, in the same building). They were neat...they broke (all the time). But, technology moved forward and bikes got more stable (Kestral making huge strides in carbon fiber, and aero with the 4000 tested primarily at RAAM).
So - back to the new bike. This bike is as fast as a Shiv...well...those tests are WITH OUT A RIDER. The bike could very well be "Slower" than a standard round tube modern frame when you cant get a human body to contort to it. I am not just talking about hip angle and elbow angle. How about how the hands break the wind over the bars. The legs break the wind around the seat tube...this will vary for every rider on earth. We are talking numbers here that can alter based on if you shaved your legs today or not.
I really think that we are at the point that some of these numbers are so specialized (no pun intended) that we can compare them to a drag race car. Can the car go X fast? Sure...with THAT driver. Put me in that car and it wont go any faster than any other car I have driven (cause I am not that pro driver it was designed for). Then there is the precipice of "aero over comfort". I can ride a P4 to a very nice 40k TT time...kills me at Ironman (cant stay in that position that long).
So, my question is...do we buy the magic and get a new loan? Where does reality take over? (and it makes me mad when I see a dude 40lbs over weight sitting upright at a race on an "aero demon carbon/ti pro 9000" bike with electronic shifting.
0
Comments
-
Just touching on your last statement:
If seeing someone on a bike gets you mad, I suggest you reevaluate your life. Be happy they are on bikes and doing something about their weight, rather than being a snob and looking down on them for being overweight.
It's mindsets like that get me mad. What makes you better? Or is it jealousy because they have a bigger budget?
There's a good saying out there: no matter what weight you are, if you're up and moving you're still lapping everyone sitting on the couch.0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19632301#p19632301]MountainMonster[/url] wrote:Just touching on your last statement:
If seeing someone on a bike gets you mad, I suggest you reevaluate your life. Be happy they are on bikes and doing something about their weight, rather than being a snob and looking down on them for being overweight.
It's mindsets like that get me mad. What makes you better? Or is it jealousy because they have a bigger budget?
There's a good saying out there: no matter what weight you are, if you're up and moving you're still lapping everyone sitting on the couch.
If they had the cash? Sure...but what I see FAR more often is that the bike shop knows they have the cash and play Ferrari dealership and sell something they cant benefit from. I have in my many years see this cause two things...four five years down the line the bike has <100km on it and is sold on eBay (due to the person never being "comfortable" on the bike, as it is IMPOSSIBLE to properly fit the person to the bike). OR, people who "could" get the skin thin benefit of the bike cant get one (after selling their worldly possessions) because there are "none left". ANY LBS that sells a "Super Bike" to a person who OBVIOUSLY physically can not be put into the proper fitment is simply ripping people off.0 -
Has this post taken you since 198x to write?
People have the choice to buy whatever they want - as long as they can afford it. Then once they've bought it, it is up to them how much they use it. Who are we to judge what other people buy/ride?0 -
So this is basically an "all the gear and no idea" rant?
The economics of running a bike shop would suggest that if a fat bloke walks into a bike shop with £6k and says, "I want that one", he can have it. Pretty much like buying a fast car, only cheaper.
Or... Is it a "technobabble" rant against raging over use of acronyms in the bike industry?
Or.... Is it a rant against the UCI for stopping the technological march in the 1980s towards fully enclosed recumbent racing?0 -
So, my question is...do we buy the magic and get a new loan? Where does reality take over? (and it makes me mad when I see a dude 40lbs over weight sitting upright at a race on an "aero demon carbon/ti pro 9000" bike with electronic shifting.
You seem like such a miserable snob. I cringe every time I see you post. If someone has the money to buy something, why shouldn't they? Who are you to judge?
In terms of your statement about bike shops ripping people off, you've clearly got no real experience operating a business (especially in the current climate), they need to make money, selling a few tubes every week isn't keeping the doors open, they need these luxury sales.0 -
Has this post taken you since 198x to write?
People have the choice to buy whatever they want - as long as they can afford it. Then once they've bought it, it is up to them how much they use it. Who are we to judge what other people buy/ride?
It is a bike shops OBLIGATION to customer service to say "that may not be the bike for you". As much a capitalist pig I am, the wrong thing is simply "The wrong thing". Selling the wrong thing to a person is unconscionable no matter how much money they have (well, at least REALLY try talking them out of it).
I worked in the industry for years and years...let me tell you, Specialized NOT want some dude 40lbs over weight on the new bike. They want it to win races (that is simple marketing). That is why there is a line of bikes and "Starter" road bikes is VERY clear on every line up MFG - Specialized, Trek, Cervelo, Felt and on and on.
In typical fashion, reading between the lines is impossible. I know MANY a pro cyclist and pro triathlete. I know for a fact that 99.9% of them can beat 99.9% of us - in any race at any place on any bike.
Were you aware of the policies to purchase many new Ferraris? If you do not already own one, you cant purchase new one - period. Maybe, just maybe the same should go into cycling. Is the "goal" to not increase the attendance and awareness of the sport? Do we not agree that fit is the #1 most important thing for a bike to be enjoyable? We can also agree that with a bad fit a person is uncomfortable and will not enjoy the ride. Then take the fact that only the most elite of people can properly fit on these elite bikes (while maintaining what the bike was designed for) .Trust me, Specialized does not want to see a new "Superbike" with an uprise Look Ergo Stem an extra wide padded saddle and beach bike pedals.0 -
in terms of your statement about bike shops ripping people off, you've clearly got no real experience operating a business (especially in the current climate), they need to make money, selling a few tubes every week isn't keeping the doors open, they need these luxury sales.
So, penny wise and pound foolish is smart business practice? Or, you sell a bike - customer loves it and upgrades and upgrades and upgrades.....Hmmmmm0 -
Has this post taken you since 198x to write?
People have the choice to buy whatever they want - as long as they can afford it. Then once they've bought it, it is up to them how much they use it. Who are we to judge what other people buy/ride?
It is a bike shops OBLIGATION to customer service to say "that may not be the bike for you". As much a capitalist pig I am, the wrong thing is simply "The wrong thing". Selling the wrong thing to a person is unconscionable no matter how much money they have (well, at least REALLY try talking them out of it).
I worked in the industry for years and years...let me tell you, Specialized NOT want some dude 40lbs over weight on the new bike. They want it to win races (that is simple marketing). That is why there is a line of bikes and "Starter" road bikes is VERY clear on every line up MFG - Specialized, Trek, Cervelo, Felt and on and on.
In typical fashion, reading between the lines is impossible. I know MANY a pro cyclist and pro triathlete. I know for a fact that 99.9% of them can beat 99.9% of us - in any race at any place on any bike.
Were you aware of the policies to purchase many new Ferraris? If you do not already own one, you cant purchase new one - period. Maybe, just maybe the same should go into cycling. Is the "goal" to not increase the attendance and awareness of the sport? Do we not agree that fit is the #1 most important thing for a bike to be enjoyable? We can also agree that with a bad fit a person is uncomfortable and will not enjoy the ride. Then take the fact that only the most elite of people can properly fit on these elite bikes (while maintaining what the bike was designed for) .Trust me, Specialized does not want to see a new "Superbike" with an uprise Look Ergo Stem an extra wide padded saddle and beach bike pedals.
complete nonsense, Specialized are a business they want to make money.0 -
So this is basically an "all the gear and no idea" rant?
The economics of running a bike shop would suggest that if a fat bloke walks into a bike shop with £6k and says, "I want that one", he can have it. Pretty much like buying a fast car, only cheaper.
Or... Is it a "technobabble" rant against raging over use of acronyms in the bike industry?
Or.... Is it a rant against the UCI for stopping the technological march in the 1980s towards fully enclosed recumbent racing?
Weren't you ever told not to answer a question with a question?I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles0 -
and it makes me mad when I see a dude 40lbs over weight sitting upright at a race on an "aero demon carbon/ti pro 9000" bike with electronic shifting.
You really do deserve all the abuse you get from coming out with comments like that.
Who are you to ju... You know what, I startd out on a long rambling reply and thought, **** it. I can't really be bothered arguing with an idiot like you, you'll only drag me down to your own level and beat me with your experience.Advocate of disc brakes.0 -
and it makes me mad when I see a dude 40lbs over weight sitting upright at a race on an "aero demon carbon/ti pro 9000" bike with electronic shifting.
You really do deserve all the abuse you get from coming out with comments like that.
Who are you to ju... You know what, I startd out on a long rambling reply and thought, **** it. I can't really be bothered arguing with an idiot like you, you'll only drag me down to your own level and beat me with your experience.
It also upsets me when I see a 240lbs woman (and trust me, they are COMMON in the US) wearing shorts designed for a 120lbs woman (again, COMMON...you are blessed to not have a million WalMarts). However, it seems to me that the common consensus is that it is OKAY to sell a customer the wrong bike if that is what he wants?0 -
ps, sorry mods if that was a personal insult towards our esteemed friend but I think his comments are slightly, well, how shall I put it... Idiotic?Advocate of disc brakes.0
-
ps, sorry mods if that was a personal insult towards our esteemed friend but I think his comments are slightly, well, how shall I put it... Idiotic?
This is the internet my friend. Idiotic is part and parcel...thought however is not common. Realities give way to feelings of being politically correct in every instance. But...please please please tell me that when you see a giant person roll out of a Mini you dont wonder.... :P0 -
Do you mean, was I not told ever to not answer a question with a question? Or do you mean was I ever not told never to answer a question with a question? Or do you mean was I ever told not to answer a question with a question. Or do you mean, was I not told to answer every question with a question?[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19632370#p19632370]SloppySchleckonds[/url] wrote:So this is basically an "all the gear and no idea" rant?
The economics of running a bike shop would suggest that if a fat bloke walks into a bike shop with £6k and says, "I want that one", he can have it. Pretty much like buying a fast car, only cheaper.
Or... Is it a "technobabble" rant against raging over use of acronyms in the bike industry?
Or.... Is it a rant against the UCI for stopping the technological march in the 1980s towards fully enclosed recumbent racing?
Weren't you ever told not to answer a question with a question?
Please refer to Michael Gove's grammatical style guide in future.0 -
Well, as entertaining as this thread is (particularly since my hunch is that the OP owns a Record-clad titanium bike, dear Watson) I'm off to ride my 16lb Lotusbike replica to the shops. I'm aiming for a 12kph average today.0
-
Let's be a bit more rational if you don't mind![url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19632301#p19632301]MountainMonster[/url] wrote:Just touching on your last statement:
If seeing someone on a bike gets you mad, I suggest you reevaluate your life. Be happy they are on bikes and doing something about their weight, rather than being a snob and looking down on them for being overweight.
It's mindsets like that get me mad. What makes you better? Or is it jealousy because they have a bigger budget?
There's a good saying out there: no matter what weight you are, if you're up and moving you're still lapping everyone sitting on the couch.
If they had the cash? Sure...but what I see FAR more often is that the bike shop knows they have the cash and play Ferrari dealership and sell something they cant benefit from. I have in my many years see this cause two things...four five years down the line the bike has <100km on it and is sold on eBay (due to the person never being "comfortable" on the bike, as it is IMPOSSIBLE to properly fit the person to the bike). OR, people who "could" get the skin thin benefit of the bike cant get one (after selling their worldly possessions) because there are "none left". ANY LBS that sells a "Super Bike" to a person who OBVIOUSLY physically can not be put into the proper fitment is simply ripping people off.
Bikes are made because there's a market for them. Your suggestion that more deserving riders can't get these great bikes because there are none left after the rich, fat guys buy them all is very obviously utter nonsense. If anything you should be thankful that people for whom these are perhaps not suitable bikes are buying them anyway since it increases availability and reduces cost. The number of bikes available is down to the number manufactured. The manufacturer will be deciding how many to manufacture based on how many they forecast they will be able to sell. NOT based on how many "deserving" riders they think there are in the world.
If only 50 people in the world were interested in buying a Cervelo P5, do you think they'd be easier or harder to get hold of? Do you think there would be more or less sizes available? Do you think it would be cheaper?....Do you think it would exist?
More customers = more bikes, sold more widely, in more sizes/builds, with lower manufacturing costs and more competition between a larger number of manufacturers.
If you disagree, please explain your logic, because I certainly don't see it.0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19632301#p19632301]MountainMonster[/url] wrote:Just touching on your last statement:
If seeing someone on a bike gets you mad, I suggest you reevaluate your life. Be happy they are on bikes and doing something about their weight, rather than being a snob and looking down on them for being overweight.
It's mindsets like that get me mad. What makes you better? Or is it jealousy because they have a bigger budget?
There's a good saying out there: no matter what weight you are, if you're up and moving you're still lapping everyone sitting on the couch.
If they had the cash? Sure...but what I see FAR more often is that the bike shop knows they have the cash and play Ferrari dealership and sell something they cant benefit from. I have in my many years see this cause two things...four five years down the line the bike has <100km on it and is sold on eBay (due to the person never being "comfortable" on the bike, as it is IMPOSSIBLE to properly fit the person to the bike). OR, people who "could" get the skin thin benefit of the bike cant get one (after selling their worldly possessions) because there are "none left". ANY LBS that sells a "Super Bike" to a person who OBVIOUSLY physically can not be put into the proper fitment is simply ripping people off.
So you're telling me they should discriminate on who can buy those bikes based on weight or size? You get even better mate.
People can buy what they want. The only person with something wrong here is you, not the bike shops, not the people buying the bikes.
You sound like you've had to sell all your worldly possessions to try to afford one and couldn't get one. Or you simply can't afford one and have a serious case of envy.
Sad.0 -
I agree with one of the OPs assertions. That being that shops should be giving honest advice regarding suitability of fit. Pretty much everything else is clearly absurd.
So you think Specialized consider marketing image to be more important than selling bikes? Are you aware that the sole purpose of marketing by a bike manufacturer is, in fact, to sell bikes?...let me tell you, Specialized NOT want some dude 40lbs over weight on the new bike. They want it to win races (that is simple marketing).....
...Trust me, Specialized does not want to see a new "Superbike" with an uprise Look Ergo Stem an extra wide padded saddle and beach bike pedals.
Do you actually believe Specialized or any other manufacturer is sponsoring pro cycling so that they can then NOT sell their bikes to the people enticed to want one?
I think you have a seriously confused grasp on reality.0 -
and it makes me mad when I see a dude 40lbs over weight sitting upright at a race on an "aero demon carbon/ti pro 9000" bike with electronic shifting.
You really do deserve all the abuse you get from coming out with comments like that.
Who are you to ju... You know what, I startd out on a long rambling reply and thought, **** it. I can't really be bothered arguing with an idiot like you, you'll only drag me down to your own level and beat me with your experience.
It also upsets me when I see a 240lbs woman (and trust me, they are COMMON in the US) wearing shorts designed for a 120lbs woman (again, COMMON...you are blessed to not have a million WalMarts). However, it seems to me that the common consensus is that it is OKAY to sell a customer the wrong bike if that is what he wants?
The common consensus is that bike shops and manufacturers are there to sell bikes. If a customer wants to spend the cash on a £6k bike that probably won't benefit them much, then what's the problem?Should they tell them "No, we won't sell you that because you're fat and inflexible"?
Should you not be allowed to go to a high calorie restaurant, or an all you can eat, because you're not fat and don't need/want that much food?
Discrimination is a horrible thing. BTW i'm from NC, and the ratio is exactly the same here in the UK with regards to overweight people wearing things they probably shouldn't. Feed the stereotype why don't you........0 -
This thread is sooooo funny....... clearly the OP has a completely screwed idealogy of the responsibility of Shops/anyone to police their buyers !!
I'm in the Travel Industry, and in my 30yrs in it, I've never told anyone that their 5* Hotel costing them £25/30/40 or even £65k ......yes THOUSANDs.......wouldnt suit them because they just arent sophisticated enough to fit in, or too 'fat' for the trendy beach, ......get real ffs !
Same with bikes, if someone aspires and wants to ride the latest /most expensive rig, and clearly arent asking as the the suitability of it for THEM, why should the bike store TRY and talk them out of it ?? Its Business.0 -
This thread could well be great, let's hope it stays just enough on topic to not get locked.
I can agree that seeing a massively overweight person on an incredibly high end bike is funny, although I'd never assume they'd actually think for one second that they'd be quick on it, excess weight does not make someone thick. But they can go any buy whatever they want and whatever makes them happy, the same as the rest of us.0 -
Is that Dennisn?0
-
It can't be Dennisn, dennis wouldn't have ridden something like a Cervelo P4, in fact he probably doesn't even have a mobile phone. He probably has a Compaq 486 with a 14" monitor running off a generator to post with.0
-
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19632507#p19632507]greasedscotsman[/url] wrote:Is that Dennisn?
I don't think that's very fair to Dennisn. OK, he was a bit of a zealot on weight training but I don't think he'd ever be taking issue with a fat bloke on an aero bike...0 -
I'm 39 years old, 1.78m tall and I weigh 85kg.
I've been riding since early 2011.
I do multi-sport (Duathlon, Triathlon and Adventure races) and sportives. I'll be doing an Ironman next year.
I'm not fat but I'm not light.
I don't have much of a tan.
I'm reasonably attractive I think.
I have a full head of hair.
I rarely ride more than 160km a week and very often ride less.
I don't shave my legs.
I mostly wear event jerseys (not team jerseys or expensive Rapha/Assos stuff)
I do have good shorts.
I use 25mm tyres and they're under 100psi.
My saddle to bar drop is about 60mm IIRC.
What bicycles should I be permitted to purchase?
Please let me know if you require further information (e.g. salary, diet, etc.)0 -
I'm 39 years old, 1.78m tall and I weigh 85kg.
I've been riding since early 2011.
I do multi-sport (Duathlon, Triathlon and Adventure races) and sportives. I'll be doing an Ironman next year.
I'm not fat but I'm not light.
I don't have much of a tan.
I'm reasonably attractive I think.
I have a full head of hair.
I rarely ride more than 160km a week and very often ride less.
I don't shave my legs.
I mostly wear event jerseys (not team jerseys or expensive Rapha/Assos stuff)
I do have good shorts.
I use 25mm tyres and they're under 100psi.
My saddle to bar drop is about 60mm IIRC.
What bicycles should I be permitted to purchase?
Ones with Sky written on them.0 -
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the return on investment of high end/performance kit which then trickles down to the more accessible kit? Thanks to our fat friends, who i was once a member, help offset the upfront investment in R & D.
Most of us, including myself are significantly over biked. So what? Buying what you need is not a outlook i subscribe to as the majority of us could live in a small flat, packed in like sardines and exist on a basic diet.
Anyways best not feed the trolls...otherwise they might get fat and use credit to buy a high end bike to wobble around on. Is team kit compulsory then?“Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime. Teach a man to cycle and he will realize fishing is stupid and boring”
Desmond Tutu0 -
It can't be Dennisn...
Do you not think? There was SOMETHING in the way that Record11Ti was POSTING that made me think it might be HIM.0 -
I'm not sure which is worse, the op or the replies!!
I despair for the human raceOne plays football, tennis or golf, one does not play at cycling0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19632507#p19632507]greasedscotsman[/url] wrote:Is that Dennisn?
Was just wondering the same thing. Dennis is a professional WUM and so is this guy...0
