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  • mrfpb
    mrfpb Posts: 4,569
    Not looked beyond the main BBC article, but the posts she made were anti-Israel and satirised US support for Israel - no matter what human rights violations Israel carries out. Not liking Israel foreign policy at a time when they are bombing civilians is not the same as being anti-Semitic. As others pointed out, JC will have agreed with her sentiments wholeheartedly at the time she made the post.
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    mrfpb wrote:
    Not looked beyond the main BBC article, but the posts she made were anti-Israel and satirised US support for Israel - no matter what human rights violations Israel carries out. Not liking Israel foreign policy at a time when they are bombing civilians is not the same as being anti-Semitic. As others pointed out, JC will have agreed with her sentiments wholeheartedly at the time she made the post.

    Unless you can point to another country she wanted to be forcibly dismantled and it's people uprooted to a different country with no say in the matter, I'm inclined to believe otherwise.

    See also this

    http://order-order.com/2016/04/26/naz-shah-the-jews-are-rallying/
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • mr_goo
    mr_goo Posts: 3,770
    I haven't read all of the attached link. She had absolutely no political experience whatsoever and was imposed by the Labour National Executive to spite the Labour party in Bradford. She even polled the lowest in a secret ballot for prospective candidates, despite this she was still put forward.

    https://bradfordwest.wordpress.com/

    Fingers crossed she loses her seat and the replacement MP has less vile attitudes to Jewish people. Although seemingly that is quite a challenge for the Labour party and some of their representatives and constituents.
    Always be yourself, unless you can be Aaron Rodgers....Then always be Aaron Rodgers.
  • mrfpb
    mrfpb Posts: 4,569
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    mrfpb wrote:
    Not looked beyond the main BBC article, but the posts she made were anti-Israel and satirised US support for Israel - no matter what human rights violations Israel carries out. Not liking Israel foreign policy at a time when they are bombing civilians is not the same as being anti-Semitic. As others pointed out, JC will have agreed with her sentiments wholeheartedly at the time she made the post.

    Unless you can point to another country she wanted to be forcibly dismantled and it's people uprooted to a different country with no say in the matter, I'm inclined to believe otherwise.

    See also this

    http://order-order.com/2016/04/26/naz-shah-the-jews-are-rallying/

    Looking beyond the BBC report, clearly there is a lot more to her views than just disagreeing with Israel's foreign policy, and the more we see the more odious it looks.

    But my point stands that satire is not the same as political campaigning. I can remember in the 80's and 90's when satirists constantly harped on about Britain being the 51st state - there was even a movie based on it, it didn't mean that peole hated all Brits if they made a joke about it. My other point also stands that anti-Israel does not equal anti-semitism. You can disagree with a country's foreign policy without being xenophobic about the country's population and other people that share that ethnic origin or religion.
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    I absolutely agree with you. But too often criticism of the state of Israel drifts over into age old anti semitic tropes of controlling the media, banks etc, of using the word "Zionist" when they really would like to say "jew", of conflating the two and, as seen here, of invoking the forcible "transportation" of the Jewish people when, in living memory, some mad man decided to do just that.

    The other one that always annoys me is the placing of Israel as a unique evil in the world and a focus on its misdeeds above all others. The idea that Shah promoted in her facebook post that with the disappearance of Israel the ME would break out into peace, love and prosperity was baffling and another sinister nod to "Zionists" orchestrating all the conflict in the region.
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • tangled_metal
    tangled_metal Posts: 4,021
    That last link to the Guido fawkes page about Jews rallying related to a John Prescott piece or poll arguing that the clearly excessive bombing of Palestinian areas being tantamount to war crimes. That view was not completely away from mainstream in that IIRC a UN body actually gave that view in av report. At the time it seems there was a very high turnout disagreeing with that view. It is not unheard of to have an organized reaction to such polls. I'm sure you've all read those comments on Ukrainian stories by heavily pro-Russian posters. There is no way I can believe that a representative readership of that paper's site would vote 87% that the bombing was not a war crime. It was highly likely organized.response. If so I can say I'd not be offended by someone in the public eye pointing it out to counter that.

    Having said that, she has a case to answer and the suspension is the right response IMHO. It's just that there seems to be a lot of jumping up and down at everything years reported as negative. Let's be critical about this rather than knee jerk reaction.

    IMHO Livingstone and Shah being suspended is the right action pending investigation. There needs to be a strong, fair, proportionate and standardized response to this issue that there could be or is an anti-semitism side to parts of Labour party. There has been just too many cases brushed under the carpet to be tolerated and I feel Labour will pay for it if things don't change.

    IIRC Oxford students union, Shah, Livingston, the case of Twitter posts by a chair of a local Labour party association, etc. It's a problem the left and the right have, this anti-semitism. It's also rising within UK society. Many cases of vandalism of Jewish cemeteries for example. There is a Jewish protection society that monitors such attacks right down to a guy in the street hurling abuse at someone leaving a synagogue. The cases of attacks has risen in the last few years. So this isn't just a Labour/ Corbyn issue but inaction by Labour does nothing to help the situation. They should be leading on this issue. They would be if a centre Labour candidate was leader I reckon.
  • bompington
    bompington Posts: 7,674
    Tangled Metal wrote:
    It's a problem the left and the right have, this anti-semitism. It's also rising within UK society. Many cases of vandalism of Jewish cemeteries for example.
    Do you really think that there are a lot of good old-fashioned brownshirts out there vandalising synagogues? The vast majority of anti-semitism in the UK today comes from two sources: one of them is the left, and the other... we know what the other is.
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 16,017
    bompington wrote:
    Tangled Metal wrote:
    It's a problem the left and the right have, this anti-semitism. It's also rising within UK society. Many cases of vandalism of Jewish cemeteries for example.
    Do you really think that there are a lot of good old-fashioned brownshirts out there vandalising synagogues? The vast majority of anti-semitism in the UK today comes from two sources: one of them is the left, and the other... we know what the other is.

    Shhhh!!! You can't say that! :wink:
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 16,017
    IMHO Livingstone and Shah being suspended is the right action pending investigation. There needs to be a strong, fair, proportionate and standardized response to this issue that there could be or is an anti-semitism side to parts of Labour party.

    That will be the Livingstone that recently was appointed by Corbyn to head the Labour defence review would it?
  • mrfpb
    mrfpb Posts: 4,569
    https://twitter.com/DouglasCarswell/sta ... wsrc%5Etfw

    Oh the irony from Douglas Carswell (UKIP):

    "Rather than pointing the finger at Labour, all parties sld ask if it is ever right to seek votes by blaming some sense of "other"."

    Sorry, did I say irony, I meant hypocrisy.
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 16,017
    John Mann, Labour MP for Bassetlaw, confronts Livingstone and calls him a disgrace. As a result the Chief Whip gives Mann a bollocking. Any right minded person would have given him a pat on the back. But hey, that's Labour under Jezza.
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 16,017
    Corbyn picks some strange causes to support.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -Jews.html
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,955
    The phrase I saw somewhere in the press today which sums it up quite well is 'Labour is very inclusive towards people who like to exclude'.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,110
    I find it hard to believe there is much anti-semitism within Labour - in most areas of Britain the Jewish community is so small it is virtually invisible and the majority of people will be bewildered by this row.

    Yes there is a thread within the left that supports the Palestinian cause and is therefore critical of Israel but so what - that does not equate to anti-semitism. It's quite clear that there is an organised Israeli lobby in this country - pointing that out does not make one a racist or anti-semite. Ken Livingstone's point may have been made insensitively but then the reaction to Naz Shah from those wanting her kicked out of the party was over the top too. I think Corbyn has handled it in a reasonably mature manner - John Mann looked like a fool calling Livingstone a Nazi sympathiser and summoning him for a dressing down is the least he deserves.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 16,017
    DeVlaeminck wrote:
    I find it hard to believe there is much anti-semitism within Labour - in most areas of Britain the Jewish community is so small it is virtually invisible and the majority of people will be bewildered by this row.

    Yes there is a thread within the left that supports the Palestinian cause and is therefore critical of Israel but so what - that does not equate to anti-semitism. It's quite clear that there is an organised Israeli lobby in this country - pointing that out does not make one a racist or anti-semite. Ken Livingstone's point may have been made insensitively but then the reaction to Naz Shah from those wanting her kicked out of the party was over the top too. I think Corbyn has handled it in a reasonably mature manner - John Mann looked like a fool calling Livingstone a Nazi sympathiser and summoning him for a dressing down is the least he deserves.

    Well Livingstone has history and rather than deal with his anti semitism, they have supported him in his mayoral campaigns. As I pointed out earlier, they gave him the chair of their defence review.
    Other people were appalled at Livingstone's views, but they obviously weren't extreme enough to worry the Labour Party.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... yor-before
  • tangled_metal
    tangled_metal Posts: 4,021
    Expressing views that Israel is a problem state that commits crimes and atrocities against the Palestians is not antisemitism. What is antisemitism is when you use phrasing that is reminescent of atrocities committed against the Jewish diaspora. Talking about or re-tweeting talk about transporting Israel or Jews to America is highly reminiscent of events that have happened to Jews in history. I believe that there have been cases from within the Labour party that go over the line from robust opposition to Israel to racism or abuse of Jews.

    I heard something that struck a chord with me recently. The commentator was expressing the view that the hard left section of the Labour party has a problem with accepting there is an issue here because they do not see Jews as victims. Something along the lines that they see that the Jewish section of our society tends to be better off and part of the wealthy. This presents a problem for the left, they can not defend the Jewish community against racism (anti-semitism) because they are part of the "enemy", the wealthy, the bankers or whatever. It was put better than I hav but you get the gist of it, that there is an ideology going on that prevents the hard left seeing it as racism or even wrong to use offensive phrasing about Israel or jews or the Jewish community.

    Truth or not I don't know but there has been a perception along these lines brewing for some time. The real question now is not whether there is anti-semitism problem but how the leadership deal with the perception of inactivity or acceptance of it. If your leaders believe that Israel should not exist or at least there should be a Palestinian state and the reeling back of Israelis oppression then it makes it harder for them to accept anti-semitism if that is all wrapped up with their arguments over the Palestinian situation. They need to support the argument that Israel is guilty of oppression and war crimes over past actions against Palestinians but not the anti-semitism that slips into it at times. They need to react consistently and quickly over cases. None of this trying to brush it off only to suspend the MP or party official involved in the end. If a case comes to their attention then have a procedure and follow it. That will end the view they have a problem.

    BTW Mann and Livingstone are both known as being among the most vocal of Labour. It would always be fun to see those two at each other. There are a few others in Labour I reckon would present a good fight if they ever crossed each other. I am not sure Tories or Lib Dems have anyone close to those two to get into an argument. I would love to see it if they did.
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    DeVlaeminck wrote:
    I find it hard to believe there is much anti-semitism within Labour - in most areas of Britain the Jewish community is so small it is virtually invisible and the majority of people will be bewildered by this row.

    Yes there is a thread within the left that supports the Palestinian cause and is therefore critical of Israel but so what - that does not equate to anti-semitism. It's quite clear that there is an organised Israeli lobby in this country - pointing that out does not make one a racist or anti-semite. Ken Livingstone's point may have been made insensitively but then the reaction to Naz Shah from those wanting her kicked out of the party was over the top too. I think Corbyn has handled it in a reasonably mature manner - John Mann looked like a fool calling Livingstone a Nazi sympathiser and summoning him for a dressing down is the least he deserves.

    Absolute rubbish - where are all these Israeli's busy lobbying away? say what you mean and replace the word Israeli with Jewish. And if that is not what you mean then be aware that is what others mean when they write it.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,738
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    DeVlaeminck wrote:
    I find it hard to believe there is much anti-semitism within Labour - in most areas of Britain the Jewish community is so small it is virtually invisible and the majority of people will be bewildered by this row.

    Yes there is a thread within the left that supports the Palestinian cause and is therefore critical of Israel but so what - that does not equate to anti-semitism. It's quite clear that there is an organised Israeli lobby in this country - pointing that out does not make one a racist or anti-semite. Ken Livingstone's point may have been made insensitively but then the reaction to Naz Shah from those wanting her kicked out of the party was over the top too. I think Corbyn has handled it in a reasonably mature manner - John Mann looked like a fool calling Livingstone a Nazi sympathiser and summoning him for a dressing down is the least he deserves.

    Absolute rubbish - where are all these Israeli's busy lobbying away? say what you mean and replace the word Israeli with Jewish. And if that is not what you mean then be aware that is what others mean when they write it.


    With SC's comment included, I agree with DeV....as it were...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    What's their voting record on relevant issues?

    Actions louder than words & all that.
    _
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    Isn't it amazing that a tiny country of 6 million people should be able to exert such an unseemely influence over the world? Please explain how they achieve such a thing.

    Why is it bad that there is a community of people prepared to lobby on behalf of the only democracy in the middle east which exists continually under threat from all it's neighbours? Why is it bad to support a homeland for a people who were, within living memory ear marked for extinction?
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    What's their voting record on relevant issues?

    Actions louder than words & all that.

    Perhaps you could also look at their history of embracing anti Semitic preachers in front of the cameras, referring to them as friends, comparing Jewish journalists to concentration camp guards, employing, funding or defending anti semites and general low level Jew-baiting throughout their career.
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    What's their voting record on relevant issues?

    Actions louder than words & all that.

    Perhaps you could also look at their history of embracing anti Semitic preachers in front of the cameras, referring to them as friends, comparing Jewish journalists to concentration camp guards, employing, funding or defending anti semites and general low level Jew-baiting throughout their career.

    +1 - in isolation it could be justified but the steady drip drip paints a sorry picture
  • tangled_metal
    tangled_metal Posts: 4,021
    Quick question, has anyone seen a news piece or comment on a newspaper site that is critical of Israel get swamped by pro-Israel posts? If so that could be interpreted as an organized reply.

    I've seen it with critical comments about Russia over the Crimea and Ukraine before. Nobody doubts there is organization there when it is mooted online.

    Why is it OK to take the view the Russian supporters are organized but not Israelis supporters? Honest question? It doesn't have to be state organized. All it takes is a bunch of activists with strong belief in something.

    Personally I don't know for sure with either situations but I can believe that it happens. Guess I'm anti-Russian and anti-Semite. Oops! Did you spot the difference there? One is against a state the other is against a religion. Israel is a state only. You cannot completely ascribe a religion to a state like that. IMHO at least.
  • tangled_metal
    tangled_metal Posts: 4,021
    One more thing, Israel isn't as described above. It has been a party to the condition it's in now. Founded in blood and throughout its history it's had blood on it's hands. It's used the political benefits of being a state surrounded and under attack to become strong. With its western backers, playing a proxy role against eastern backed middle eastern states, it's prospered.

    Let's not forget there are some very valid criticisms of Israel that it's OK to discuss. Whilst some take this too far with their phrasing into anti-Semitic comments, the discussion should never be shut down by playing an anti-Semitic card. It's not happened with Shah and Livingstone IMHO but it is something that I reckon does happen. Organized or not there is a sense that you're walking on eggshells when criticising Israel.
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    Tangled Metal wrote:
    One more thing, Israel isn't as described above. It has been a party to the condition it's in now. Founded in blood and throughout its history it's had blood on it's hands. It's used the political benefits of being a state surrounded and under attack to become strong. With its western backers, playing a proxy role against eastern backed middle eastern states, it's prospered.

    Let's not forget there are some very valid criticisms of Israel that it's OK to discuss. Whilst some take this too far with their phrasing into anti-Semitic comments, the discussion should never be shut down by playing an anti-Semitic card. It's not happened with Shah and Livingstone IMHO but it is something that I reckon does happen. Organized or not there is a sense that you're walking on eggshells when criticising Israel.

    Israel was not founded in blood. It was founded by UN charter to provide a Jewish state in an area where Jews had been buying land with a view to establishing a state to defend themselves against the Arabs who would routinely attack their farms and settlements. The UN also offered the Arabs unwilling to live in a majority Jewish state their own country. They refused reasoning they could do better by conquest and failed. This was not a noble blow against oppression, it was a would be pogrom designed to throttle Israel at birth. Why do you suppose the need for a Jewish state was recognised rather than just resettlement under the existing regimes of Egypt and Jordan?

    There is much you can criticise the Israeli state for (heavy handedness, an increasingly paranoid government) , but when her critics focus on her misdeeds above those of all other nations, refuse to allow that Israel should not tolerate her citizens to be menaced daily and when they fall back on the tropes of "Zionist" control of the media and finance, of powerful "lobbies" exerting undue influence over the governments of larger countries they begin to slip into exceptionalism and should be challenged as to why.
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 52,621
    edited April 2016
    "Israel is a nation surrounded by 178 million Arabs hell bent on it's destruction". J Cameron. 1962. The remark still remains true.

    A tiny strip of land in an ocean of desert, no bigger than Wales and the vast neighbouring countries, if they were so inclined and actually sympathetic to the Palestinians, would give them some land to ease the overpopulation of parts of Palestine but no, instead they use them as a lever to constantly put pressure on Israel.
    If I was an Israeli, just having dropped off the kids to school not knowing if the Palestinians were going to indiscriminatingly chuck bombs at the school that they were at, not knowing if I was going to be blown up by some nutter in a suicide bombing when I have my lunch at the local cafe, I too would be a bit paranoid and a bit tetchy and I too would expect my leaders to be organised and do everything in their powers to keep me safe.
    Iran like other Middle Eastern states, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-26451421 do not and refuse to recognise Israel as a state and so long as the people of Palestine are represented by the likes of Hezbollah/Hamas - intent on violence and the destruction of Israel, then I have little respect for the Palestinians. When the Palestinians decide on peaceful protest and democratic representation, then I may start to be more sympathetic to their plight and then they will have a moral right internationally to support and sanctions but until they do, Israel has a right to protect themselves by whatever means necessary.
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • mamba80
    mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    Top post Pinno.

    fwiw i ve never heard anyone who is a so called socialist or with left of centre politics say anything anti-Semitic, people like Livingstone and that foolish MP are not representative of most people in the labour party.

    its so sad that with the very real issues facing the UK from jnr docs strikes to educational attainment and the scandal that is Southern Health (12 suicides from the same building roof top wtf??? and none investigated), labour are intent on pissing in the wind and its not just the Corbynites either its, Burnham/Mann etc they should should be ashamed of themselves and resign, the xxxxing lot of them.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,738
    This is nice - http://www.labourteachers.org.uk/histor ... avidblake/
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    Dead cat politics.

    Speaking to friends who are knee deep in the political side of the Jewish community in London and they're a bit bemused by it all. They're not particularly happy about the comments but they don't feel the party has ever discriminated against Jews as long as they can remember.

    Ed Miliband was quite popular amongst the community they said.

    It's a bit bizarre I have to say. I'm quite confused by the whole thing. On both sides.
    _
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Dead cat politics.

    Speaking to friends who are knee deep in the political side of the Jewish community in London and they're a bit bemused by it all. They're not particularly happy about the comments but they don't feel the party has ever discriminated against Jews as long as they can remember.

    Ed Miliband was quite popular amongst the community they said.

    It's a bit bizarre I have to say. I'm quite confused by the whole thing. On both sides.

    Probably just a matter of timing - it is an emotional time of year for Ken and co as 30th April is the anniversary of their icon's suicide. Give them a few days and they will be back to low level sniping which will give them plausible deniability.

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