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So you basically took option 1 and 3.seanoconn - gruagach craic!0
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Unless the alternatives are more accountable/fairer/ethical then what's the point. And you meed to demonstrate the lack of accountability /fairness/ ethics rather than simplistically stating this as fact.Pinno wrote:I'll refer you back to this:Pinno wrote:I am not asking for an alternative system. I am asking for accountability and fairness in the current system. I am asking for a better global ethic - particularly when it comes to the destruction of natural habitat and the use (abuse) of finite resources. I am asking that drug companies don't over charge and thereby discriminating against those who really need it etc etc..
You cannot lamely bang on saying that this ^ is better than the alternative. That is an excuse. That can be used as an excuse to allow anything to happen because "...it's better than the alternative". Nor, can you casually dismiss the huge problems Global Capitalism throws up unless you are blind.
Although as before you pin it all on the system and not on those that abuse it. There will be those in any system."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Blinkered. Totally and utterly blinkered.
As I have said before, there is no way you will question the status quo as it provides the platform that you to stand on - even if it is rotten. When you go into the shiny world of the city and you are surrounded by creators of wealth, why on earth should you think that there's any wrong in the world? 'Abusers of the system' - is that yet another get out clause in the same vein as '...give me an alternative system'?
It must be great to live in a world, comfortable in the knowledge that everything can be explained so simplistically.seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
Stevo 666 wrote:
Not sure where you see the budget being torn to shreds other than in leftie lala land. There is an emotive focus on the disability cuts but that's about it.finchy wrote:Oh, this is interesting. The latest 2 opinion polls show that Labour have closed the gap on the Tories. If it had been one opinion poll I would have dismissed it as an outlier, but with the Tories ripping themselves to pieces over the EU, pessimistic economic news and Osborne's budget being torn to shreds even in the right wing press, maybe the country's about to tack left.
My bet with mamba is safe because Labour is still an unelectable trotskyite run protest party
"Leftie lala land, leftie bollox, delusional lefties, blahblahblah". Yawwwwwn.
Here's the opening line from a Daily Telegraph piece:
"There are, apparently, magical sofas at Number Eleven Downing Street. The Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR) found £27bn down the back of one as recently as last November; but just four months later, it appears that the Chancellor managed to misplace £56bn behind another."
The rest can be read here.
The Daily Mail has savaged it as well, but my Internet connection is working quite slowly at the moment, so I'm not trawling through their website for 20 minutes just to post a link on here.
By the way, I've found a video of you in your younger days. I never knew you had such a good singing voice.0 -
This is undoubtably the strongest point on yesterday's announcement. It also sums up the state of the Tory party.mamba80 wrote:If a right winger like IDS can't stomach the government policy of taking money from the poorest and giving it to the well off, then it shows how far the Tory party has fallen.
Maybe Corbyn will win in the end. That would really stick in some throats.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
I posted some time back that there is a danger that the Tories would view the next election as a given, being that there is no credible opposition. It is theirs to lose and I hope they will get their sh1t together before it's too late.0
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Ballysmate wrote:I posted some time back that there is a danger that the Tories would view the next election as a given, being that there is no credible opposition. It is theirs to lose and I hope they will get their sh1t together before it's too late.
Agreed. They assume Corbyn can't win so let's not bother with others, let's get back to what we really enjoy, internal Tory party factional feuding. Thatcher kept the dissenters in their place, for a while until she went ga-ga, Major faced down the swivel eyed Mekon aka John Redwood and his lot. But Shiny Faced Dave is so weak he's let the other lot get up a head of steam.
Oh, and IDS just lost another in a series of legal battles trying to prevent FOI release of documentation on the true (bad) state of his own pet Universal Credit mega expensive public sector project flop.
I know, sez he, I can wash my hands of that embarassment by walking away and getting onto this let's detach from the EU train.
Whatever happens over the next few months of ranting about Europe, and no matter which side wins, we have a very public schism in the true blues which ain't gonna heal any time soon. So Toryboy666 and fellow travellers, which of the remnants do you fancy?0 -
Everyone knew there were and are tory divisions on Europe. But not nearly as bad as the divisions within Labour - only recently there were reports of planned coups to depose Corbyn. Only a matter of time before the fisticuffs break out.
Its the tories to lose but to do that there needs to be some sort of credible opposition to lose to...
@ finchy, I've found a theme song that suits Labour and the Libdems down to the ground
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fUlcfF5Dnvc"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Stevo 666 wrote:
It'll be like the tax credit issue. Most likely there will be a softening of the stance and it will all be forgotten.mamba80 wrote:If a right winger like IDS can't stomach the government policy of taking money from the poorest and giving it to the well off, then it shows how far the Tory party has fallen.
This is an emotive issue and Corbyn has recognised that he can score political points by exploiting the knee jerk reaction of many people who don't look at the facts and assume that any cut is a bad cut. Apparently the decisions were taken based on an independent review and aimed at making sure that the budget was spent on those that really need the money. But lefties are just appealing on a more simplistic level.
IDS is a leftie eh?
funnily enough, i happen to think that the numbers of disabled people in this country is out of control, but that needs fair and sensitive detection rather than penalising those in genuine need, its the Tories inability on this front which has helped raise the disability budget.
But of course having people on long term sick is a handy way to get unemployment down, both tory and labour have taken advantage of this.
IDS has stated he has had enough of poorer people being targeted and that he feels we are not all in it together, so raising lower TH by 500 and raising higher rate by 3k ? he has a point, regardless of disability cuts.
what has that got to do with Brexit? he had freedom to campaign for OUT and could have still stayed in Government or are you saying a leading tory would try an destroy his party? nice!
Once polls turn toward Corbyn, talk of coups will go, but as said Tories still to lose - as for the bet, either way i win as a well deserving charity gets a few quid.... i just feel it ll be my choice which one
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Rick Chasey wrote:mamba80 wrote:
funnily enough, i happen to think that the numbers of disabled people in this country is out of control,
On what evidence?
He's practising for a job interview with ATOS.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:mamba80 wrote:
funnily enough, i happen to think that the numbers of disabled people in this country is out of control,
On what evidence?
1992 just over 1m claims, 2010 just 3m claims for DLA, now there are demographic reasons for this rise but a trebling?
there is also reclassification and awareness and as i said an acceptance that someone on DLA doesnt appear on the unemployment stats.
ATOS is no longer anything to do with claimants, and good riddance too.0 -
mamba80 wrote:Stevo 666 wrote:
It'll be like the tax credit issue. Most likely there will be a softening of the stance and it will all be forgotten.mamba80 wrote:If a right winger like IDS can't stomach the government policy of taking money from the poorest and giving it to the well off, then it shows how far the Tory party has fallen.
This is an emotive issue and Corbyn has recognised that he can score political points by exploiting the knee jerk reaction of many people who don't look at the facts and assume that any cut is a bad cut. Apparently the decisions were taken based on an independent review and aimed at making sure that the budget was spent on those that really need the money. But lefties are just appealing on a more simplistic level.
IDS is a leftie eh?
funnily enough, i happen to think that the numbers of disabled people in this country is out of control, but that needs fair and sensitive detection rather than penalising those in genuine need, its the Tories inability on this front which has helped raise the disability budget.
But of course having people on long term sick is a handy way to get unemployment down, both tory and labour have taken advantage of this.
IDS has stated he has had enough of poorer people being targeted and that he feels we are not all in it together, so raising lower TH by 500 and raising higher rate by 3k ? he has a point, regardless of disability cuts.
what has that got to do with Brexit? he had freedom to campaign for OUT and could have still stayed in Government or are you saying a leading tory would try an destroy his party? nice!
Once polls turn toward Corbyn, talk of coups will go, but as said Tories still to lose - as for the bet, either way i win as a well deserving charity gets a few quid.... i just feel it ll be my choice which one
Wouldn't be the first time a leading Tory had risked taking down a Tory Govt to get us out of the EU.0 -
Deafening silence from our usual right wingers... Shame the Tory party cant keep its mouth shut! this story is going around the world, its even news in saudi, where my bro works.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/ministers-r ... 1458480458
Yet again, this bunch of clowns, drags the UK through the mud, with little regard for consequence, as i ve said before, Cameron is no leader and should resign, both over this budget shambles and calling an EU vote, which if PWC and CBI are even half right, could, if its OUT, cost the UK dearly.0 -
The press are going to go to town on this. However, DC may see it as a blessing as he places a Europhile on the cabinet to replace IDS. I wouldn't get to carried away. If this Tory govt. make a U turn on Welfare, it won't be the first and it will get brushed under the carpet.
"We made a mistake and we are listening... blah blah blah" They have swung it before.
Then IDS will look like the bloke who left to swing his own agenda and not the man who stuck to his guns on a fairness issue. You can achieve much more and carry more weight inside the cabinet rather than out.
As a Europhile myself, I do not want to see the Conservative party split at this stage before a referendum - it wouldn't do the IN camp much good. Corbynites must be careful not to look like the loyal EU brigade to which the public have yet to consider as viable opposition/administration.seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
mamba80 wrote:Deafening silence from our usual right wingers... Shame the Tory party cant keep its mouth shut! this story is going around the world, its even news in saudi, where my bro works.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/ministers-r ... 1458480458
Yet again, this bunch of clowns, drags the UK through the mud, with little regard for consequence, as i ve said before, Cameron is no leader and should resign, both over this budget shambles and calling an EU vote, which if PWC and CBI are even half right, could, if its OUT, cost the UK dearly.
If you are including me in your list (a short list, as most on here are lefties), you are right, I don't post so much on this thread as it's become somewhat tedious.
I can't see the page you linked to because I have not subscribed. I can see the headline about splits in government though. Does that constitute dragging the UK through the mud?
As regards the lack of leadership, do you recall posting
My gut feeling is to stay in but if we dont start hearing the positives of EU membership, i might vote OUT !!!
Cameron is giving you the opportunity to exercise your vote in this regard, as promised in his manifesto. YOU seem to be thinking of voting for an option that YOU believe could cost the UK dearly. :? Who knows how a lefty's mind works? :?0 -
I'm busy saving tax old chapmamba80 wrote:Deafening silence from our usual right wingers... Shame the Tory party cant keep its mouth shut! this story is going around the world, its even news in saudi, where my bro works.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/ministers-r ... 1458480458
Yet again, this bunch of clowns, drags the UK through the mud, with little regard for consequence, as i ve said before, Cameron is no leader and should resign, both over this budget shambles and calling an EU vote, which if PWC and CBI are even half right, could, if its OUT, cost the UK dearly.
But Bally beat me to it with the rather obvious retort. It does sometimes seem that the left wing mentality seems to be 'we want the UK to suffer and do badly as then we can blame those evil tories'. The previous posts of some on here do tend to support this idea.
Actually the key to our productivity gap is to get lefties to do some real work in the time they normally spend whingeing and doing the UK down on the internet "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Stevo 666 wrote:
But Bally beat me to it with the rather obvious retort. It does sometimes seem that the left wing mentality seems to be 'we want the UK to suffer and do badly as then we can blame those evil tories'.
No, you are so wrong, i want the UK to be a great place to live and work, for everyone, and though the Tory problems are in some senses funny, they are also very harmful to the UK and very harmful to the tories themselves and unlike you, i think having vibrant political parties in the UK, is good for the country and democracy.
the current tories have, according to IDS, been takin money from non tory voters (the poor and disabled) and giving it to tory voters (better off) thats wrong and evil, do i want that to happen? no way, i ve been on the receiving end of poverty.
Bally, you ve been an enthusiastic poster on here (when you think labour have been a shambles) even fairly recently!!!0 -
mamba80 wrote:Stevo 666 wrote:
But Bally beat me to it with the rather obvious retort. It does sometimes seem that the left wing mentality seems to be 'we want the UK to suffer and do badly as then we can blame those evil tories'.
No, you are so wrong, i want the UK to be a great place to live and work, for everyone, and though the Tory problems are in some senses funny, they are also very harmful to the UK and very harmful to the tories themselves and unlike you, i think having vibrant political parties in the UK, is good for the country and democracy.
the current tories have, according to IDS, been takin money from non tory voters (the poor and disabled) and giving it to tory voters (better off) thats wrong and evil, do i want that to happen? no way, i ve been on the receiving end of poverty.
Bally, you ve been an enthusiastic poster on here (when you think labour have been a shambles) even fairly recently!!!
Quite right. Past tense. 2 posts in the last 7 pages I think.(Not including the one above) Truly prolific.0 -
Ballysmate wrote:mamba80 wrote:Stevo 666 wrote:
But...tories'.
No....
Bally, you ve been an enthusiastic poster on here (when you think labour have been a shambles) even fairly recently!!!
Quite right. Past tense. 2 posts in the last 7 pages I think.(Not including the one above) A truly miserable cop out and not supporting your Tory mate, leaving him to suffer at the hands of Trotsky pigs
FTFYseanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
Mamba. I have said before that no government is 100% right 100% of the time.Re: £12 billion in welfare cuts
Postby Ballysmate » Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:46 am
Ok Frank, lets talk about real people in real situations. We have a welfare system that rewards some people with more income than many others can aspire to earn.
People, some on here, have argued that big companies see tax credits and benefits in general as a wage subsidy, allowing them to pay lower wages. A view that is difficult to deny. The Tories are the only party willing to seize this particular nettle and make changes. Corbyn has stated that he would abolish the welfare cap entirely. Tesco, Asda McD would no doubt be in favour of that.
No government is 100% right 100% of the time and the policy, like any other, may need adjusting in time. We shall see
You though seem to think this government is 100% wrong 100% of the time. There may be merit in the belief that people like yourself, a higher rate tax payer have been given a better deal than the likes of me on basic rate but I understand the philosophy of the measure.
If you wish to reflect on a policy of spite, reflect on this.
"I remember coming away from some discussions with the clear sense that the policy was intended – even if this wasn't its main purpose – to rub the Right's nose in diversity and render their arguments out of date."
Andrew Neather
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... viser.html
A lot of today's immigration fears can be traced back to policies such as this. A policy that was meant to spite the right has severely damaged the country.0 -
finchy wrote:mamba80 wrote:No, you are so wrong, i want the UK to be a great place to live and work, for everyone,
Come on now mamba, haven't you been on here long enough to know that anyone who disagrees with Stevo must have something wrong with them?
You must SHOW figures or give evidence.That's the bottom line.
However, when you do "stats can prove or disprove anything".seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
Ballysmate wrote:"I remember coming away from some discussions with the clear sense that the policy was intended – even if this wasn't its main purpose – to rub the Right's nose in diversity and render their arguments out of date."
Andrew Neather
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... viser.html
A lot of today's immigration fears can be traced back to policies such as this. A policy that was meant to spite the right has severely damaged the country.
1) Neather made it quite clear that the primary goal in allowing mass immigration was economic, NOT to spite the right.
2) He was only giving his opinion of what he believed certain members of the Labour leadership were thinking.
3) He also said that other Labour Cabinet members had misgivings about the impact on the working classes.0 -
Pinno wrote:finchy wrote:mamba80 wrote:No, you are so wrong, i want the UK to be a great place to live and work, for everyone,
Come on now mamba, haven't you been on here long enough to know that anyone who disagrees with Stevo must have something wrong with them?
You must SHOW figures or give evidence.That's the bottom line.
However, when you do "stats can prove or disprove anything".
And we must never, ever try to learn lessons from other countries. That is tantamount to treason. And all other countries are socialist hellholes anyway.0 -
finchy wrote:Ballysmate wrote:"I remember coming away from some discussions with the clear sense that the policy was intended – even if this wasn't its main purpose – to rub the Right's nose in diversity and render their arguments out of date."
Andrew Neather
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... viser.html
A lot of today's immigration fears can be traced back to policies such as this. A policy that was meant to spite the right has severely damaged the country.
1) Neather made it quite clear that the primary goal in allowing mass immigration was economic, NOT to spite the right.
2) He was only giving his opinion of what he believed certain members of the Labour leadership were thinking.
3) He also said that other Labour Cabinet members had misgivings about the impact on the working classes.
1) So a goal then?
2) An opinion based on dealings with ministers. He actually wrote speeches on immigration for ministers.
3) They had misgivings but went along with it anyway then?0 -
finchy wrote:Pinno wrote:finchy wrote:mamba80 wrote:No, you are so wrong, i want the UK to be a great place to live and work, for everyone,
Come on now mamba, haven't you been on here long enough to know that anyone who disagrees with Stevo must have something wrong with them?
You must SHOW figures or give evidence.That's the bottom line.
However, when you do "stats can prove or disprove anything".
And we must never, ever try to learn lessons from other countries. That is tantamount to treason. And all other countries are socialist hellholes anyway.
Global Capitalism has nothing to answer for.
Materialism is good - just have a look at all the stuff you can have because of it.
Any examples of global corporations polluting, exploiting, damaging the environment are just 'abusers of the system'.
Monaco is Nirvana. The IoM, Jersey and Guernsey generate so much cash*..., it's great for the economy.
If you live up North, you can do some training, get on your bike, cycle south and make a fortune - "I did". In fact, there shouldn't be a 'North' except for sheep and mountain bike trails. Anyone who lives there and is unemployed is just too stupid and stubborn to move and deserve everything they get.
*... they can pay f*cking tax. Although, as we have found out, great for 'Holding Companies' who are registered in Holland and superb for avoiding corporation tax...seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
Ballysmate wrote:1) So a goal then?
Not really. He said that it was more about undermining right-wing opposition to multiculturalism, and even then he made it quite clear that this was very much secondary to the economic arguments. Allowing mass immigration and thereby increasing racial tensions is probably not the best way to go about that, but not exactly a spite-driven policy.Ballysmate wrote:2) An opinion based on dealings with ministers. He actually wrote speeches on immigration for ministers.
Indeed, he may even be correct, but he doesn't actually offer any evidence as to why he thought that. OK, it was only a newspaper article, and he probably wasn't expecting the media reaction, but it would be nice to know what he's basing his opinion on.Ballysmate wrote:3) They had misgivings but went along with it anyway then?
Collective Cabinet responsibility. Happens all the time, whichever party is in power.
Anyway, I think this Neather quote better sums up the immigration "debate" in this country:
"The Right see plots everywhere and will hyperventilate at the drop of a chapati. The Left, however, will immediately accuse anyone who raises immigration as an issue as 'playing the race card' - as the Government has on several occasions over the past decade. Both sides need to grow up"0
