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He seems to have criticised Israel and suggested Brits shouldn't fight for foreign countries. You don't need to agree with him to think that those things are fine to say in a private conversation.
Starmer is very underwhelming in his handling of it.
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I think he's caught between a rock and a hard place: he is still fighting the legacy of Corbyn, but I suspect he can see injustice and war crimes when he sees them. It still feels though like he can't bring himself to voice or condone criticism of Israel's Gaza campaign.
Two maybe vaguely sane voices, for a change:
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If what I read is accurate that's an extremely sanitized version of what he said.
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
A decent leader would find the moral clarity to be able to criticise Israel whilst defending Jewish people. He may be the best option available, but he is very underwhelming.
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I'm not sure the diplomatic skills exist to be able to do that without upsetting people, and potentially large numbers of people. Along with the issues around anti Semitism of the previous labour leadership, the conflict does seem to have snookered Starmer.
I assume there's an estimate somewhere that suggests it's worse to be accused of anti Semitism than not caring if Palestinian hospitals get flattened. I think that's possibly true for traditional media.
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Well one has a direct impact to the UK population (UK resident Jews) and one doesn't (there is a panoply of horrendous acts of genocide and war crimes to chose from to get upset about, well outside of Israel/Palestine).
I've said it multiple times. There is *actual genocide* in Sudan and no-one internationally gives a shit.
Was anyone so exercised about Armenians in the Azerbijani Nagorno-Karabakh offensive?
How about genocidal efforts in the Tigray Region in Ethopia since 2020?
Cameron f*cking well had President Xi over and it's well documented his party are engaged in genocidal efforts against Uyghur people, so let's not pretend this is about taking the moral high ground.
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I think 'underwhelming' is the best that Starmer can achieve (unless one can just be 'whelming'). He knows if Labour is going to be elected he can't afford to give figurative weapons to 'either side', and that the accusation of antisemitism is a very powerful one, especially given the party's recent history.
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The biggest problem is that, whether deliverately or through ignorance (I suspect mainly the former), people insist on conflating criticising Israel with being anti-Semitic. Ironically, Labour called for the creation of a Jewish state in Palestine for years in the 30s and 40s before backtracking when they won power in 1945.
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Criticising Israel does not have an impact on the UK population, because Jews are not collectively responsible for the actions of Israel (see working definition of antisemitism).
Otherwise, I think you are saying that genocide is fine, because other countries are doing it.
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Your last paragraph is interesting. Labour is currently losing a lot of muslim voters. Of course, whether there is a better option is debatable, but they may simply not vote.
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My gut feel would be that, at least with the demographics in my constituency, a strong turn out from the Muslim community is key in overturning the conservative majority.
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On that basis, Starmer needs to find a better line.
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I would like him to find one which at least allows for mild criticism of Netanyahu's tactics, but if you were aware of the backlash that Private Eye's cover provoked, you'll know that it's [almost] impossible.
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Did he miss the reference to Hamas atrocities? Must have stopped reading after “criticism of the Israeli government”.
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Last time I shared David Baddiel's reaction here, and that was equally apposite, as it was just as vitriolic. Amusingly, when I shared Baddiel's tweet on the FB timeline of a friend who is, shall we say, not supportive of Israel, he thought I was condoning Baddiel, until I explained. It is really hard not to draw the wrath of one side or both, however cautious one is.
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That's basically down to the fact it's a vehicle for whatever phobia they happen to have.
Anyone who basically thinks anything other than each side is appalling has some grievance.
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Meh, I'd hope that Labour have more sophisticated polling models than my guess.
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I can't help but feel Starmer's problem is that his real target is the hard left white members who hate jews for being the apex of the capitalist system. Unfortuntely he is being forced to suspend Muslim members who just hate Israel.
He has set the bar for suspension so low that if the Tories find some yoof who can work Google he will lose a decent % of his parliamentary candidates
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Owen Jones is not someone I would ever normally listen to, but might have some insight on internal labour struggles. He thinks it's being used to clear out the hard left and it is ridiculous that Ali was given a second chance based on what he said in comparison to others i.e. he definitely should have been suspended, but the shadow cabinet all rallied around him after his apology.
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Feels like the hard left could just, you know, mind their language a bit more on this subject.
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Extremism defined here as not agreeing with the party line?
- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono0 -
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So we have the ‘hard left white jew haters’* not to be confused with the ‘woke left’ who are on the march and are bothering the popcoms.
I’m finding post-modernism very tiresome with its shifting definitions and labelling ‘the others’ so they are easy to shut down without proper debate..
*do these people really still exist?
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Started reading a little about the older anti-semitism claims as I don't know much about them. Some of them would be quite funny if it weren't for the fact that they muddy genuine anti-semitic stuff.
In April 2018 Corbyn attended a Passover seder with a Jewish group called Jewdas. They are apparently "far left" and not fans of Israel so Corbyn was accused of anti-semitism for spending time with these Jews.
The president of the Board of Deputies of British Jews said that Jewdas is a "source of virulent anti-semitism" and claimed that its members are "not all Jews".
Jewdas in response said "To claim that we in Jewdas are somehow not real Jews is offensive, and frankly antisemitic".
Everyone involved ended up anti-semitic 😂
Sorry this is old news for people who were paying attention at the time.
- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono2 -
Quite witty from the Tories 🙂
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
This would make it more likely that Galloway wins, you idiot!
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Shock, horror, key Labour policy likely to be unfeasible in the timescale given and will cost much more than originally estimated.
Wonder how many more will turn out like this?
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
What's the cost of not doing anything? I mean, just flooding damage costs the UK around £1.5bn a year, and that's only going to increase.
And is it that expensive? £116bn is the state pension over 15 months.
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116 billion over 11 years seems... remarkably cheap considering
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