The big four and the Tour

135

Comments

  • r0bh
    r0bh Posts: 2,436
    ddraver wrote:
    I think (hope) it will be very clode between all 4 of them. I also think that Froome never got a chance to have a crack on the cobbles properly this year. If you think what Gee and Porte did on that stage after Froome had been knocked off yet again, it would have put Froome in a great position behind Nibbles.

    Interesting that Luke Rowe has been training with Sky's Tour squad in Tenerife; another big engine for the cobbles
  • tangled_metal
    tangled_metal Posts: 4,021
    Actually a usb stick in the side of the TV and using the record button might work. Or laptop perhaps via usb cables or would hdmi work. Hmmm! Think there's a way. Think I could wrangle a tour evening so long as no-one tells me the results for the recorded days yet to watch.
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,104
    FJS wrote:
    Crozza wrote:

    they go over the Tourmalet and the Galibier, so not sure "easy" is the word I would choose.
    the Galibier is likely to be out; the approach road is closed because of a tunnel collapse


    Yes so presumably a second ascent of the Glandon or climbing the Croix de Fer (possibly with the Mollard or something) from the side they have descended on the earlier stage? That would give them a fast technical descent with some steep kickups part way rather than the gradual main road descent of the Lauteret off the Galibier opening up the possibility of attacking one mountain out from Alpe D'Huez which the original route over the Galibier wouldn't. The only fly in the ointment is it's 7 miles of flat valley road between the foot of the descent and start of the Alpe. Still a good descender needing time on GC might now be tempted especially if they had to make time on someone like Froome whose descending has been questioned in the past.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,104
    For the GC I'd go with the bookies for the order. A fit and in form Froome is probably the strongest but only by a whisker and I think he may struggle to cope with the other favourites' superior bike handling and more adventurous tactics.

    Quintana looks a more complete bike rider to me. I'm still not convinced Contador is quite what he was in his prime and there is a question mark over whether the Giro has tired him and as for Nibali much as I like him as a rider I'm not convinced he has the basic power to weight to match them on the the steepest climbs.

    I'd go something like 35% a Quintana win, 30% Froome, 25% Contador, 7% Nibali and the 3% someone else.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • hammerite
    hammerite Posts: 3,408
    DeVlaeminck wrote:


    Yes so presumably a second ascent of the Glandon or climbing the Croix de Fer (possibly with the Mollard or something) from the side they have descended on the earlier stage? That would give them a fast technical descent with some steep kickups part way rather than the gradual main road descent of the Lauteret off the Galibier opening up the possibility of attacking one mountain out from Alpe D'Huez which the original route over the Galibier wouldn't. The only fly in the ointment is it's 7 miles of flat valley road between the foot of the descent and start of the Alpe. Still a good descender needing time on GC might now be tempted especially if they had to make time on someone like Froome whose descending has been questioned in the past.

    It might not be as wide as the Lauteret descent, but the descent from the Glandon isn't narrow and not incredibly technical - it is fast though.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,695
    DeVlaeminck wrote:
    the other favourites' superior bike handling

    This one still going? Ok then.
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • thomthom
    thomthom Posts: 3,574
    ddraver wrote:
    DeVlaeminck wrote:
    the other favourites' superior bike handling

    This one still going? Ok then.

    Incredible isn't. I'm genuinely still to see ONE argument behind the claim.

    Pundits had a hard time making Tour De France exciting when he won it so they had to find things that his opponents were marginally better at..

    .. cut to part where Alberto almost took out Froome on the descent..
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    r0bh wrote:
    ddraver wrote:
    I think (hope) it will be very clode between all 4 of them. I also think that Froome never got a chance to have a crack on the cobbles properly this year. If you think what Gee and Porte did on that stage after Froome had been knocked off yet again, it would have put Froome in a great position behind Nibbles.

    Interesting that Luke Rowe has been training with Sky's Tour squad in Tenerife; another big engine for the cobbles
    In the past Sky have taken their Tour team to the Dauphine (only one of the team has not gone to the Tour 2011-14)

    Now their team for the Dauphine is Froome, Poels, Roche, Stannard, Kennaugh, Deignan, Rowe and Boswell.

    I expect Thomas, Henao and Porte (if fit) to go but the others will come from that team. Boswell & one other (Deignan?) to miss out.

    As for Tour as a whole. One of the big four will be out of contention by the first mountain stage, probably two - at least a bit adrift.

    Teams need to be selected with the first nine stages in mind more than the mountains. When one of the big four attacks, teams will be of limited use unless you already have an advantage.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • philbar72
    philbar72 Posts: 2,229
    Joelsim wrote:
    Ashbeck wrote:
    frenchfighter wrote:
    Macaloon wrote:
    Similarly, Froome ( :wink: ) is desperate to assert his dominance over this generation, especially Contador.

    Indeed he is. He has only 8 GTs to go at time of writing. Only two years younger than Contador so he just needs a few GT doubles and he will be there in no time.


    Froome being at a major disadvantage, being clean of course.

    What makes you so sure that Froome is clean? Bertie isn't and Nibali isn't. But I don't think Froome, Quintana, Purito, Valverde are either. Pinot may be though.

    What you're saying is that Froome is so good that he can beat all the dopers?

    Do you actually know these people are on something Joel?

    I'm suspicious of quite a few riders, but without being 100% certain, you sure that's wise?
  • philbar72
    philbar72 Posts: 2,229
    So as to who wins, for me it's heart says Quintana, head says froome. I'd like nibbles to win a couple of stages, as he is my favourite gc rider, and I also hope contador makes an impact, but I'm not sure he can genuinely sustain a 3 week challenge.
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,434
    RichN95 wrote:
    Now their team for the Dauphine is Froome, Poels, Roche, Stannard, Kennaugh, Deignan, Rowe and Boswell.

    I expect Thomas, Henao and Porte (if fit) to go but the others will come from that team. Boswell & one other (Deignan?) to miss out..

    Who gets a crack at the Vuelta (assuming Froome doesn't need a plan B)?
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • mm1
    mm1 Posts: 1,063
    TailWindHome wrote:

    Who gets a crack at the Vuelta (assuming Froome doesn't need a plan B)?

    Interesting question. Konig and Kennaugh as joint leaders would be interesting. Sky need to bring on their next generation and at least one has to be of interest to the home market.
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    edited June 2015
    Who knows!
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    mm1 wrote:
    TailWindHome wrote:

    Who gets a crack at the Vuelta (assuming Froome doesn't need a plan B)?

    Interesting question. Konig and Kennaugh as joint leaders would be interesting. Sky need to bring on their next generation and at least one has to be of interest to the home market.

    Do you think Sky will go with someone other than Froome for the Vuelta? They may give a couple of them a freer role but I would think the objective will be to win it and in theory Froome is the only one capable of doing so.
  • Macaloon
    Macaloon Posts: 5,545
    Joelsim wrote:
    As sure as it's possible to be without a positive test as proof in the cases of Contador, Valverde and Nibali. Less sure about the others as they don't still deny/refute their bans etc. To be honest I'm pretty sure that doping is still a massive problem and I actually think it's getting worse again the more I watch and read now that the scientists know the parameters of the passport. Rebellin is still getting away with it, Horner too, Katusha extremely iffy, Astana goes without saying after everything that's happened and their strength and powers of recovery in the Giro etc. The main reason is it's clearly very easy with the right knowledge to not fail a test or go outside the acceptable area of the passport, so why would proven dopers stop...and that creates a vicious circle.

    I do however, think there are a some clean riders these days too though.

    I don't understand your Astana argument. If it was so easy to dope, how come such a wealthy, experienced operation were almost thrown off the sport, and are very much on probation? And how is that a green light for organized team-wide doping elsewhere?
    ...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,104
    ThomThom wrote:
    ddraver wrote:
    DeVlaeminck wrote:
    the other favourites' superior bike handling

    This one still going? Ok then.

    Incredible isn't. I'm genuinely still to see ONE argument behind the claim.

    Pundits had a hard time making Tour De France exciting when he won it so they had to find things that his opponents were marginally better at..

    .. cut to part where Alberto almost took out Froome on the descent..


    Well we'll have to agree to disagree - interesting that you find it so "incredible" though when even someone like Sean Kelly or Robert Millar agrees with me.

    http://cyclingtips.com.au/2014/07/sean- ... ies-ahead/
    http://www.sportkix.com/golf#!/news/mil ... es-problem

    As you say though we have had the argument before on here and last time I did post several examples of his bike handling letting him down in races I really can't repeat the process every time the subject comes up just because you weren't concentrating.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • mm1
    mm1 Posts: 1,063
    Joelsim wrote:
    mm1 wrote:
    TailWindHome wrote:

    Who gets a crack at the Vuelta (assuming Froome doesn't need a plan B)?

    Interesting question. Konig and Kennaugh as joint leaders would be interesting. Sky need to bring on their next generation and at least one has to be of interest to the home market.

    Do you think Sky will go with someone other than Froome for the Vuelta? They may give a couple of them a freer role but I would think the objective will be to win it and in theory Froome is the only one capable of doing so.

    Depends who wins in July I suppose. Sky will want and undoubtledly need to bring on young and preferably home grown talent to maintain UK public interest. I think, indeed I hope, that they (and the man himself) have realised that the next great hope for the Tour isn't Geraint.
  • philbar72
    philbar72 Posts: 2,229
    DeVlaeminck wrote:
    ThomThom wrote:
    ddraver wrote:
    DeVlaeminck wrote:
    the other favourites' superior bike handling

    This one still going? Ok then.

    Incredible isn't. I'm genuinely still to see ONE argument behind the claim.

    Pundits had a hard time making Tour De France exciting when he won it so they had to find things that his opponents were marginally better at..

    .. cut to part where Alberto almost took out Froome on the descent..


    Well we'll have to agree to disagree - interesting that you find it so "incredible" though when even someone like Sean Kelly or Robert Millar agrees with me.

    http://cyclingtips.com.au/2014/07/sean- ... ies-ahead/
    http://www.sportkix.com/golf#!/news/mil ... es-problem

    As you say though we have had the argument before on here and last time I did post several examples of his bike handling letting him down in races I really can't repeat the process every time the subject comes up just because you weren't concentrating.

    Agree, Froome's bike handling in certain situations is poor, or he gets nervous. Either way, he's not as good as say Nibali at getting downhill... But then very few are.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,695
    The Nibbles one too eh?

    Any others?
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • FJS
    FJS Posts: 4,820
    mm1 wrote:
    Depends who wins in July I suppose. Sky will want and undoubtledly need to bring on young and preferably home grown talent to maintain UK public interest. I think, indeed I hope, that they (and the man himself) have realised that the next great hope for the Tour isn't Geraint.
    And it ain't Kennaugh either. Easier said than done. Belgian and Dutch teams have unsuccessfully been trying to hone their next homegrown grand tour winner for about 25 years. It may well be that UK public interest has somewhat overblown expectations after two consecutive TdF victories
  • nic_77
    nic_77 Posts: 929
    DeVlaeminck wrote:
    ThomThom wrote:
    ddraver wrote:
    DeVlaeminck wrote:
    the other favourites' superior bike handling

    This one still going? Ok then.

    Incredible isn't. I'm genuinely still to see ONE argument behind the claim.

    Pundits had a hard time making Tour De France exciting when he won it so they had to find things that his opponents were marginally better at..

    .. cut to part where Alberto almost took out Froome on the descent..


    Well we'll have to agree to disagree - interesting that you find it so "incredible" though when even someone like Sean Kelly or Robert Millar agrees with me.

    http://cyclingtips.com.au/2014/07/sean- ... ies-ahead/
    http://www.sportkix.com/golf#!/news/mil ... es-problem

    As you say though we have had the argument before on here and last time I did post several examples of his bike handling letting him down in races I really can't repeat the process every time the subject comes up just because you weren't concentrating.

    https://youtu.be/7DCe4QVO0PE?t=13
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  • jimmythecuckoo
    jimmythecuckoo Posts: 4,718
    FJS wrote:
    And it ain't Kennaugh either.

    I still think it could be him if he were used or managed better.

    Maybe if he goes to BMC he might get more of a free rein to show what he showed in the Dauphine a few years ago.
    http://fendrieneu.home.blog
    My blog and pod...
    Beers of Belgium Cycling Club UK
  • Macaloon
    Macaloon Posts: 5,545
    FJS wrote:
    mm1 wrote:
    Depends who wins in July I suppose. Sky will want and undoubtledly need to bring on young and preferably home grown talent to maintain UK public interest. I think, indeed I hope, that they (and the man himself) have realised that the next great hope for the Tour isn't Geraint.
    And it ain't Kennaugh either. Easier said than done. Belgian and Dutch teams have unsuccessfully been trying to hone their next homegrown grand tour winner for about 25 years. It may well be that UK public interest has somewhat overblown expectations after two consecutive TdF victories

    Surely Geraint is safe after graduating to favourite status (in Boondelabara's absence) this season? Dave's evident pride in creating a toxic environment for exciting developing talent like the Yates boys (and hopefully Geoghan Hart) hasn't had the recognition it deserves.
    ...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    If only they'd got the Yates twins! Sky's way is to go for their best option in every race, SDB has targets to meet to justify his budget, and let's not forget the next great UK hope needs to be up there with Quintana etc. My guess is that they'll offer the Yates boys a huge sum at their next contract time if all goes to plan with their development at OGE.
  • mm1
    mm1 Posts: 1,063
    Joelsim wrote:
    If only they'd got the Yates twins! Sky's way is to go for their best option in every race, SDB has targets to meet to justify his budget, and let's not forget the next great UK hope needs to be up there with Quintana etc. My guess is that they'll offer the Yates boys a huge sum at their next contract time if all goes to plan with their development at OGE.

    Didn't want them both, which is why they ended up at OGE. They seem to be happy there and aren't being burnt out as part of someone else's mountain train.
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    mm1 wrote:
    Joelsim wrote:
    If only they'd got the Yates twins! Sky's way is to go for their best option in every race, SDB has targets to meet to justify his budget, and let's not forget the next great UK hope needs to be up there with Quintana etc. My guess is that they'll offer the Yates boys a huge sum at their next contract time if all goes to plan with their development at OGE.

    Didn't want them both, which is why they ended up at OGE. They seem to be happy there and aren't being burnt out as part of someone else's mountain train.

    Yes but since then they have both shown what they can do, not just Simon. Sky will be able to offer them far more money than OGE when their contracts are up for renewal at the end of 2016. By then they may have made so much progress that Sky can offer them leader status in a good selection of races.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,695
    FJS wrote:
    mm1 wrote:
    Depends who wins in July I suppose. Sky will want and undoubtledly need to bring on young and preferably home grown talent to maintain UK public interest. I think, indeed I hope, that they (and the man himself) have realised that the next great hope for the Tour isn't Geraint.
    And it ain't Kennaugh either. Easier said than done. Belgian and Dutch teams have unsuccessfully been trying to hone their next homegrown grand tour winner for about 25 years. It may well be that UK public interest has somewhat overblown expectations after two consecutive TdF victories

    Yep - add in the french to that too. World Class GC contenders don't just require a bit of a more careful look...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    Joelsim wrote:
    mm1 wrote:
    Joelsim wrote:
    If only they'd got the Yates twins! Sky's way is to go for their best option in every race, SDB has targets to meet to justify his budget, and let's not forget the next great UK hope needs to be up there with Quintana etc. My guess is that they'll offer the Yates boys a huge sum at their next contract time if all goes to plan with their development at OGE.

    Didn't want them both, which is why they ended up at OGE. They seem to be happy there and aren't being burnt out as part of someone else's mountain train.

    Yes but since then they have both shown what they can do, not just Simon. Sky will be able to offer them far more money than OGE when their contracts are up for renewal at the end of 2016. By then they may have made so much progress that Sky can offer them leader status in a good selection of races.

    But what about the systematic doping going on at Sky? Wouldn't that tarnish them for you? :roll:
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    coriordan wrote:
    Joelsim wrote:
    mm1 wrote:
    Joelsim wrote:
    If only they'd got the Yates twins! Sky's way is to go for their best option in every race, SDB has targets to meet to justify his budget, and let's not forget the next great UK hope needs to be up there with Quintana etc. My guess is that they'll offer the Yates boys a huge sum at their next contract time if all goes to plan with their development at OGE.

    Didn't want them both, which is why they ended up at OGE. They seem to be happy there and aren't being burnt out as part of someone else's mountain train.

    Yes but since then they have both shown what they can do, not just Simon. Sky will be able to offer them far more money than OGE when their contracts are up for renewal at the end of 2016. By then they may have made so much progress that Sky can offer them leader status in a good selection of races.

    But what about the systematic doping going on at Sky? Wouldn't that tarnish them for you? :roll:

    Where have I said systematic doping at Sky? I don't actually believe there is any systematic team doping going on, not even at Astana.
  • adr82
    adr82 Posts: 4,002
    Joelsim wrote:
    coriordan wrote:
    Joelsim wrote:
    mm1 wrote:
    Joelsim wrote:
    If only they'd got the Yates twins! Sky's way is to go for their best option in every race, SDB has targets to meet to justify his budget, and let's not forget the next great UK hope needs to be up there with Quintana etc. My guess is that they'll offer the Yates boys a huge sum at their next contract time if all goes to plan with their development at OGE.

    Didn't want them both, which is why they ended up at OGE. They seem to be happy there and aren't being burnt out as part of someone else's mountain train.

    Yes but since then they have both shown what they can do, not just Simon. Sky will be able to offer them far more money than OGE when their contracts are up for renewal at the end of 2016. By then they may have made so much progress that Sky can offer them leader status in a good selection of races.

    But what about the systematic doping going on at Sky? Wouldn't that tarnish them for you? :roll:

    Where have I said systematic doping at Sky? I don't actually believe there is any systematic team doping going on, not even at Astana.
    Just systematic doping by everyone on the team...?

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