Team Sky kit wearing mountain bikers

rockmonkeysc

DH race kit is gradually getting less baggy but I can't see it going back to skin suits, the aerodynamic advantage isn't really there on a three minute long track where you're out of the saddle nearly the whole run, maybe with a ten second aero tuck at most.

Clockworkmark31

RockmonkeySC wrote:

DH race kit is gradually getting less baggy but I can't see it going back to skin suits, the aerodynamic advantage isn't really there on a three minute long track where you're out of the saddle nearly the whole run, maybe with a ten second aero tuck at most.

So would that not be seen as technological advancement in how the clothing we wear for riding can improve performance?

Still wouldn't be an excuse for lycra on DH, but maybe some compromise?

Just re-read your post and noted you were referring to less baggy clothes having no advantage. Maybe I retract my statement.

rockmonkeysc

I don't think the incentive is there for manufacturers to develop lycra kit for DH, it just wouldn't sell. Ameteur riders won't be swapping their baggies for roadie style lycra kit and for manufacturers, the reason to develop kit for racing is to sell it and make money.

Clockworkmark31

But maybe wearing something like a compression top has advantages, wicking sweat away less strain maybe even a moral boost thinking yeah i look good and it having a physiological boost to push harder. Don't know just throwing some ideas around.

Don't think we will ever see a DH rider in a wind tunnel so we can analyze the effects of different clothing in relation to performance.

So the only conclusion I can think of is personal choice and isn't that what makes MTB an expensive fun hobby/career?

Clockworkmark31

RockmonkeySC wrote:

I don't think the incentive is there for manufacturers to develop lycra kit for DH, it just wouldn't sell. Ameteur riders won't be swapping their baggies for roadie style lycra kit and for manufacturers, the reason to develop kit for racing is to sell it and make money.

Not too sure about this, I don't do DH, but I can imagine on a wet day wearing full length DH trousers would be performance sapping, more weight and material to move. When it gets wet the load increases etc. But if you could wear some shorts or 3/4 baggies with lycra underneath wouldn't that be more beneficial if it had the same effects, less weight, less material to hold moisture more freedom of movement less fabric rubbing on skin and less variables to stop you from comfort riding to a full on attack?

Ferrals

RockmonkeySC wrote:

DH race kit is gradually getting less baggy but I can't see it going back to skin suits, the aerodynamic advantage isn't really there on a three minute long track where you're out of the saddle nearly the whole run, maybe with a ten second aero tuck at most.

I'm not sure about that, races are won by fractions of a second, seeing some DH pros are doing the xc trick of removing some rotor bolts to save weight I'm sure if they could they would from a purely winning point of view.

However, I reckon baggy clothing is marginally safer in preventing gravel rash

Also your point re. What sells is probably most pressing in dictating what gets worn.

rockmonkeysc

DH pants aren't as heavy as they look. They are lined so don't restrict movement and some have pads built in. They aren't noticeably different to ride in than shorts. Plus DH racing involves a lot of time standing around waiting for uplifts and queuing for race starts so keeping warm in cold or wet weather is important.

Clockworkmark31

RockmonkeySC wrote:

DH pants aren't as heavy as they look. They are lined so don't restrict movement and some have pads built in. They aren't noticeably different to ride in than shorts. Plus DH racing involves a lot of time standing around waiting for uplifts and queuing for race starts so keeping warm in cold or wet weather is important.

They look quite heavy, but its the same with ski/snowboard trousers. But if they were closer fitting wouldn't they have the same thermal effects of trapping warm air inside, better wicking, more breathable etc? So you could switch to something with less weight but with the same thermal/weather properties of baggies or all in one suits. I aren't one for lycra skin grabbing material. But there are some advantages, if I were to use my 3 year old skiing trousers I am limited in movement of the material, but if I could have the same benefits with a more flexible material wouldn't that be more of an advantage?

Forgot what I was routing for now, but if you could take the best from both sports and combine them wouldn't that make for a better product.

Example, carbon is strong and light and we can make carbon nanotubes that have a higher tensile strength than steel. Titanium is light too and has different properties. But combine the two to make carbotanium and you get the best of all worlds. Is this not what we should be doing? Progressing technology?

The Rookie

Off topic, but the main benefit of carbotanium (over conventional CF) is in impacts as it increases the energy absorbed as the material fails, not much use on an MTB, quite useful on a car!

As for what people wear, doesn't bother me at all unless it's a group ride when I may have to ride behind them, 3 examples on my last group ride
1/ Large guy in soccer shorts that wouldn't stay up fully leading to a (hairy) builders crack - not good
2/ Road racer who also rides MTB (pretty well) in Lycra - less objectionable but rather not
3/ Attractive young lady in 'Yoga pants' - why not!

rockmonkeysc

Clockworkmark31 wrote:

RockmonkeySC wrote:

DH pants aren't as heavy as they look. They are lined so don't restrict movement and some have pads built in. They aren't noticeably different to ride in than shorts. Plus DH racing involves a lot of time standing around waiting for uplifts and queuing for race starts so keeping warm in cold or wet weather is important.

They look quite heavy, but its the same with ski/snowboard trousers. But if they were closer fitting wouldn't they have the same thermal effects of trapping warm air inside, better wicking, more breathable etc? So you could switch to something with less weight but with the same thermal/weather properties of baggies or all in one suits. I aren't one for lycra skin grabbing material. But there are some advantages, if I were to use my 3 year old skiing trousers I am limited in movement of the material, but if I could have the same benefits with a more flexible material wouldn't that be more of an advantage?

Forgot what I was routing for now, but if you could take the best from both sports and combine them wouldn't that make for a better product.

Example, carbon is strong and light and we can make carbon nanotubes that have a higher tensile strength than steel. Titanium is light too and has different properties. But combine the two to make carbotanium and you get the best of all worlds. Is this not what we should be doing? Progressing technology?

They need to be loose enough to fit over knee pads. Keep moisture away from skin on wet, windy days and be tough enough for repeated high speed crashes on rocky trails and they need to allow unrestricted movement for very dynomic riding.
Also downhill is loosing popularity to enduro so development of kit for DH is going to be less profitable.

angry_bird

RockmonkeySC wrote:

DH race kit is gradually getting less baggy but I can't see it going back to skin suits, the aerodynamic advantage isn't really there on a three minute long track where you're out of the saddle nearly the whole run, maybe with a ten second aero tuck at most.

If there isn't an advantage then why would riders have chosen to wear them? The fact is that at 40mph the biggest resistance you're facing by far is the air in front of you and anything to minimise it will benefit you.

The issue is one of protection- fair enough, lycra doesn't hold up great in crashes- and not looking cool, which IMO is pretty pathetic when it comes down to it.

Giraffoto

I can understand the bit about the World Champion jersey - in cycling, that's reserved for a single rider, and to turn up in one that you haven't earned is like turning up to a fun run wearing an Olympic medal that you bought off eBay. For the rest though . . .

Worrying about what other people are wearing? Are we cyclists or golfers?

Angus Young

Giraffoto wrote:

Worrying about what other people are wearing? Are we cyclists or golfers?

For some people, everything has to be a team game.

njee20

I struggle to take DH racing seriously when Rachel Atherton came out with this gem on the back of losing to a skinsuited Tracy Moseley:

“It’s a bit of a touchy subject. If you ask any of the girls you don’t see them busting out skin suits, because that’s not what we feel like doing. If you win, we want it to be on skill and training and stuff like that. Fair enough to Tracey, if she wants to do that to win. But for the sport, and the longevity of the sport, to wear cool race kit and to make an image for yourself is more important than the odd win here and there.”

The Rookie

So Rachel is happy to admit she'd rather be good at marketing herself than winning.......guess she got her wish!

Plus add in "we want to win on skill and training" - in that case use an Apollo Paradox not that flaming expensive team issue bike!

As you say Nick, a really dumb statement!

Ferrals

That really is funny as fvck. Its up there with competitors saying they "just want to have lots of fun".

veronese68

Ferrals wrote:

That really is funny as fvck. Its up there with competitors saying they "just want to have lots of fun".

Or "I wasn't really trying".

schmako

Why did humans have invent clothes?

I guess it was to create arguments on the internet, wipe out species of animal and make a lot of money?

[/crud post]

paul.skibum

njee20 wrote:

I struggle to take DH racing seriously when Rachel Atherton came out with this gem on the back of losing to a skinsuited Tracy Moseley:

“It’s a bit of a touchy subject. If you ask any of the girls you don’t see them busting out skin suits, because that’s not what we feel like doing. If you win, we want it to be on skill and training and stuff like that. Fair enough to Tracey, if she wants to do that to win. But for the sport, and the longevity of the sport, to wear cool race kit and to make an image for yourself is more important than the odd win here and there.”

You might not like the way she said it but at the time she said it was around the time DH was trying to find a direction and identity that differentiated itself from other forms of cycling. Steve Peat was also a lead voice in the baggies not skin suit argument and pushed for DH to have an identity associated with baggies and a more motocross image.

The funny thing is these days that everyone wears baggy shorts but most team race tops are fairly snug. Madison Saracen probably have some of the baggier jerseys.

As for the Team Sky thing - there was a time when Team Sky and Team GB road cycling were almost synonymous (Sky do sponsor Team GB still I believe) so the Sky kit was popular in Britain but that is less true these days and the team has had a bit of a bad run lately in the grand tours. A mate of mine has not replica but actual Team Sky made race kit for his entire family with their names on the back from his sis working for Team Sky. The kids kit probably doesnt fit any more but I imagine he might still wear his. Not for mountain biking though!

rockmonkeysc

I don't believe there is much of am aero advantage. You might get up to 40mph on a straight but it's for a few seconds, most of the way down a track it's much slower.
Protection is the bigger issue, DH pants give pretty good protection from abrasion and cuts, lycra just falls to pieces. It's also really awkward with pads, they just won't stay in place, I have tried lycra tights with baggies and knee pads for a winter enduro race and it was rubbish.
That video of Gee Atherton was a few years ago now, if the lycra gave him an advantage why isn't he using it now? Last time I saw him race he was in One Industries DH pants.
If there was an advantage I'm sure people would use it, most of the serious racers I know would take any advantage they can, especially if it was relatively cheap, like new riding kit. Anything to get results and a better sponsor.
Personally I would stick with my baggies but that's just because I rarely race now and I'm a bit too curvaceous for lycra.

Clockworkmark31

Maybe the carbotanium was a little off beat and tongue in cheek but I couldn't think of another comparison at the time.

An aero advantage at 40mphI believe there most certainly would be. But I certainly wouldn't want to come off at that speed DH in lycra

Anyway seems as we are all talking about what you should and shouldn't wear. What do people wear for a top?

I always seem to be in a soft shell jacket with base layer under or if weather is good enough in a adidas climacool t shirt thingy. Keep meaning to get a new top for good weather.

Ferrals

Just a short sleeve jersey (troy lee ace) 75% of the time. If it's cold a long sleeve base layer underneath. I only wear a rain coat if it's hammering down, most of the time I'd rather get wet

Clockworkmark31

Just been looking at short sleeve jerseys and quite fancy this in blue http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/alpinestars-drop-2-short-sleeve-jersey-ss15/rp-prod132561 with a compression top if cold.

rockmonkeysc

I wouldn't have another Alpinestars jersey. My last one didn't last too well.
I know it's not too cool but I like Endura jerseys and shorts, good value and lasts very well.
I usually go for baggy shorts and a not too baggy Jersey with a sleeve length to suit the weather. I do have a couple Troy Lee DH jerseys which fit better over my armour and are very well made.

Clockworkmark31

I use endura 3/4 baggie shorts and have nothing but admiration for them, reasonably priced, comfy, very good wearing. Admittedly I don't do DH but they do get used in all weather conditions and I have nothing but praise for them.

angry_bird

RockmonkeySC wrote:

That video of Gee Atherton was a few years ago now, if the lycra gave him an advantage why isn't he using it now?

Umm... because the UCI banned them :roll:



edit, here's a linky to an article BR did

I find it amusing that Rachel got bitchy about T-Mo beating her wearing a skinsuit only for her brother to win the world champs while wearing one.

veronese68

RockmonkeySC wrote:

... I'm a bit too curvaceous for lycra.

So you're just jealous?

The Rookie

For a top I wear a Motocross jersey (by Thor), it's light, very very hard wearing and mesh so it's not to warm, its loose enough that I can wear something under to keep warm if needed, so a base T or long sleeve with or without a thin fleece (sub zero for me), I find the MX jersey better than any dedicated cycling kit which I find is too warm for me in long sleeve trim (for commuting I wear just a T-shirt for anything over about +4 but prefer not to MTB with bare arms).

rockmonkeysc

Veronese68 wrote:

RockmonkeySC wrote:

... I'm a bit too curvaceous for lycra.

So you're just jealous?

No. Even if I was super slim (I'm not exactly a lard arse) I would still be wearing baggies.

njee20

Baggy jerseys are great until you put things in the pocket, at which point they just bounce around too much.