Motors on bikes (again)
Comments
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inseine wrote:
This is why personally i don't think it's happening. You can at least convince yourself that doping is OK, but this is so clear cut, premeditated cheating. Not to mention that technically I just can't see it.Dabber wrote:Daz555 wrote:
I would suspect a regular regime of EPO gets you more watts for longer than one of these micro-motors. Why punish motor abusers more than dopers?Dabber wrote:If it turns out that this is going on (perhaps a bit in the future as the technology improves) have the UCI said what the penalty would be for anyone getting caught? I would have thought that it was so indefensible that it would be an instant lifetime ban.
I think both should get lifetime bans but that's another debate.
"Why punish motor abusers more than dopers?"
Because, unless I'm missing something if you are caught with a motor than can be no ambiguity... no debate about whether your medical ailment prescription was the cause, contaminated meat, naturally high levels etc etc.
Btw, I'm with you on life bans for both actually but the motor doping seems particularly clear cut.
Why isn't doping premeditated cheating?
I agree with you if you are the first to do it, but if you're the second and know about the first then heh!0 -
I'm sure the UCI would love to find a motor in a bike. There's not going to be a protracted court case and some fans believing the guy was innocent, etc etc, I mean, there's a bloody motor!0
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Whilst I believe that teams have used them in the past, I don't think they will use them now whilst it's such as hot potato. The sponsors would go bananas.0
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RichN95 wrote:
I'm pretty sure they'd rather not find one.inseine wrote:I'm sure the UCI would love to find a motor in a bike. There's not going to be a protracted court case and some fans believing the guy was innocent, etc etc, I mean, there's a bloody motor!
They seem pretty keen to be seen looking for one. After all the problems in the sport this one must seem quite cut and dry.0 -
If a five year old tells you he's scared because there is a monster in his cupboard, what do you do? You open the cupboard to show that there isn't.inseine wrote:RichN95 wrote:
I'm pretty sure they'd rather not find one.inseine wrote:I'm sure the UCI would love to find a motor in a bike. There's not going to be a protracted court case and some fans believing the guy was innocent, etc etc, I mean, there's a bloody motor!
They seem pretty keen to be seen looking for one. After all the problems in the sport this one must seem quite cut and dry.Twitter: @RichN950 -
RichN95 wrote:
Exactly how mental does a theory have to be for you not to believe it? Did you watch Jurassic Park and think 'Disney are definitely doing this'?Joelsim wrote:Whilst I believe that teams have used them in the past.
I don't think it's a mental theory at all. If athletes are more than willing to put dangerous substances in their bodies...and the technology is there to give 100W for an hour according to speculation...
Wasn't this what TSP was talking about? Bikes at the side of the road rather than on the car?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=al22Nn-6yPs
Obviously, no-one can make assumptions based on this.0 -
RichN95 wrote:
If a five year old tells you he's scared because there is a monster in his cupboard, what do you do? You open the cupboard to show that there isn't.inseine wrote:RichN95 wrote:
I'm pretty sure they'd rather not find one.inseine wrote:I'm sure the UCI would love to find a motor in a bike. There's not going to be a protracted court case and some fans believing the guy was innocent, etc etc, I mean, there's a bloody motor!
They seem pretty keen to be seen looking for one. After all the problems in the sport this one must seem quite cut and dry.
You have a lot of faith in human beings Rich, more than me.0 -
Would we be talking about this so much if Ryder hadn't gone over in the Vuelta and his cosmics been turning for about half an hour after?
Maybe not... but it's absolutely fascinating stuff.0 -
Nah, it is doable, thats nothing new. Unless you believe in joel's invisible motor then it's easily detectable so just add it in to the weight limit check and the other bike tech checks that they do (legal components and such).We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
I also have a degree in mechanical engineering and access to the world's biggest patent database.Joelsim wrote:RichN95 wrote:
If a five year old tells you he's scared because there is a monster in his cupboard, what do you do? You open the cupboard to show that there isn't.inseine wrote:RichN95 wrote:
I'm pretty sure they'd rather not find one.inseine wrote:I'm sure the UCI would love to find a motor in a bike. There's not going to be a protracted court case and some fans believing the guy was innocent, etc etc, I mean, there's a bloody motor!
They seem pretty keen to be seen looking for one. After all the problems in the sport this one must seem quite cut and dry.
You have a lot of faith in human beings Rich, more than me.Twitter: @RichN950 -
I think cycling crossed the border into anything is possible with the bulb of mechanics urine suspended between drug tested riders legs.
If the bikes started flying now I would probably not be overly surprised.0 -
A typical pacemaker is tiny these days, I know as my dad has just had one fitted. The battery in that lasts 10 years which would be long enough for Cheng Ji to finish the stage.0
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RichN95 wrote:
I also have a degree in mechanical engineering and access to the world's biggest patent database.Joelsim wrote:RichN95 wrote:
If a five year old tells you he's scared because there is a monster in his cupboard, what do you do? You open the cupboard to show that there isn't.inseine wrote:RichN95 wrote:
I'm pretty sure they'd rather not find one.inseine wrote:I'm sure the UCI would love to find a motor in a bike. There's not going to be a protracted court case and some fans believing the guy was innocent, etc etc, I mean, there's a bloody motor!
They seem pretty keen to be seen looking for one. After all the problems in the sport this one must seem quite cut and dry.
You have a lot of faith in human beings Rich, more than me.
Why would they need to patent it (and make people aware of the technology) if they are selling them for 150k each? Given that the market for motors in bikes is at the lower end of the price spectrum, would there be a market for this tech at £20k per bike after economies of scale? No.0 -
Richard E Grant used one of those in Withnail and I. It's hardly unusual.jimmythecuckoo wrote:I think cycling crossed the border into anything is possible with the bulb of mechanics urine suspended between drug tested riders legs.Twitter: @RichN950 -
RichN95 wrote:
Richard E Grant used one of those in Withnail and I. It's hardly unusual.jimmythecuckoo wrote:I think cycling crossed the border into anything is possible with the bulb of mechanics urine suspended between drug tested riders legs.
I bet you voted Labour Rich, expecting all those nice rich people to pay 90% tax happily rather than finding ways of squirreling it away in the Cayman Islands.
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First of all they are not selling them for 150k.Joelsim wrote:Why would they need to patent it (and make people aware of the technology) if they are selling them for 150k each? Given that the market for motors in bikes is at the lower end of the price spectrum, would there be a market for this tech at £20k per bike after economies of scale? No.
Secondly, it's not that the alleged seller has not patented it, it's that nobody has. There are no inventions in existence of any worth that have not been patented by someone. None.
Thirdly, the technology to produce sufficent torque from a microscopic motor and minute batteries is of immense value. More than you'd get from electric bikes. It's like finding a cure for cancer and using it to flavour lollipops.Twitter: @RichN950 -
RichN95 wrote:
First of all they are not selling them for 150k.Joelsim wrote:Why would they need to patent it (and make people aware of the technology) if they are selling them for 150k each? Given that the market for motors in bikes is at the lower end of the price spectrum, would there be a market for this tech at £20k per bike after economies of scale? No.
Secondly, it's not that the alleged seller has not patented it, it's that nobody has. There are no inventions in existence of any worth that have not been patented by someone. None.
Thirdly, the technology to produce sufficent torque from a microscopic motor and minute batteries is of immense value. More than you'd get from electric bikes. It's like finding a cure for cancer and using it to flavour lollipops.
We're only talking microscopic motors since the story broke. Before that it was a motor that could be hidden in a frame or a BB or suchlike. Technology like that exists. Which is why they will never find one now unless the team has a way of doing a bike change out of site of helicopters and camerabikes and people.0 -
And all of those had great big batteries. They still do. Remember that the only source for the existance of these motors is a mysterious Hungarian that no-one has ever met, no-one can find any trace of, who hasn't provided any evidence of these things existing, and has a website comprising photoshopped pictures and other peoples videos.Joelsim wrote:We're only talking microscopic motors since the story broke. Before that it was a motor that could be hidden in a frame or a BB or suchlike. Technology like that exists. Which is why they will never find one now unless the team has a way of doing a bike change out of site of helicopters and camerabikes and people.
And people lap it up. It's like the Hitler Diairies all over again. Just not nearly as clever.Twitter: @RichN950 -
RichN95 wrote:
And all of those had great big batteries. They still do. Remember that the only source for the existance of these motors is a mysterious Hungarian that no-one has ever met, no-one can find any trace of, who hasn't provided any evidence of these things existing, and has a website comprising photoshopped pictures and other peoples videos.Joelsim wrote:We're only talking microscopic motors since the story broke. Before that it was a motor that could be hidden in a frame or a BB or suchlike. Technology like that exists. Which is why they will never find one now unless the team has a way of doing a bike change out of site of helicopters and camerabikes and people.
And people lap it up. It's like the Hitler Diairies all over again. Just not nearly as clever.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=world ... d=0CCAQsAQ
Or maybe a couple of watch batteries. It doesn't need to be rechargeable.0 -
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And now show me the motor. Or are you going to show be a 0.5W motor which through gearing provides 10W to the cranks. Do you know what torque is?Joelsim wrote:https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=world ... d=0CCAQsAQ
Or maybe a couple of watch batteries. It doesn't need to be rechargeable.Twitter: @RichN950 -
RichN95 wrote:
And now show me the motor. Or are you going to show be a 0.5W motor which through gearing provides 10W to the cranks. Do you know what torque is?Joelsim wrote:https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=world ... d=0CCAQsAQ
Or maybe a couple of watch batteries. It doesn't need to be rechargeable.
Yes I do.0 -
RichN95 wrote:
Exactly how mental does a theory have to be for you not to believe it? Did you watch Jurassic Park and think 'Disney are definitely doing this'?Joelsim wrote:Whilst I believe that teams have used them in the past.
I do think the technology is there - the link on page 1 is pretty much the finished article isn't it - I mean OK the battery is visible but then in a race situation you wouldn't need to produce the power for an hour so presumably it could be made significantly smaller to fit inside the seatpost or seat tube ?[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
Just because someone developed a tiny battery and someone else developed a tiny motor, it doesn't mean you can simply connect the tiny motor to the tiny battery and expect it to power anything you want...Joelsim wrote:RichN95 wrote:
And now show me the motor. Or are you going to show be a 0.5W motor which through gearing provides 10W to the cranks. Do you know what torque is?Joelsim wrote:https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=world ... d=0CCAQsAQ
Or maybe a couple of watch batteries. It doesn't need to be rechargeable.
Yes I do.
Which is why the UCI inspections involve popping out the seatpost and cranks so they can check exactly those areas. Takes a few minutes, and when you see the sizes of the motors that are being used it's going to be immediately obvious if there's anything like that inside. External batteries are relatively easy to get rid of, a motor and battery that are basically moulded into your frame much less so. Some of them apparently require the frame to be cut apart to put them in place before it is repaired afterwards, so they're in there permanently after that. Not the type of thing you can quickly get rid of if you see the UCI inspectors approaching.DeVlaeminck wrote:I do think the technology is there - the link on page 1 is pretty much the finished article isn't it - I mean OK the battery is visible but then in a race situation you wouldn't need to produce the power for an hour so presumably it could be made significantly smaller to fit inside the seatpost or seat tube ?0 -
adr82 wrote:
Just because someone developed a tiny battery and someone else developed a tiny motor, it doesn't mean you can simply connect the tiny motor to the tiny battery and expect it to power anything you want...Joelsim wrote:RichN95 wrote:
And now show me the motor. Or are you going to show be a 0.5W motor which through gearing provides 10W to the cranks. Do you know what torque is?Joelsim wrote:https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=world ... d=0CCAQsAQ
Or maybe a couple of watch batteries. It doesn't need to be rechargeable.
Yes I do.
Which is why the UCI inspections involve popping out the seatpost and cranks so they can check exactly those areas. Takes a few minutes, and when you see the sizes of the motors that are being used it's going to be immediately obvious if there's anything like that inside. External batteries are relatively easy to get rid of, a motor and battery that are basically moulded into your frame much less so. Some of them apparently require the frame to be cut apart to put them in place before it is repaired afterwards, so they're in there permanently after that. Not the type of thing you can quickly get rid of if you see the UCI inspectors approaching.DeVlaeminck wrote:I do think the technology is there - the link on page 1 is pretty much the finished article isn't it - I mean OK the battery is visible but then in a race situation you wouldn't need to produce the power for an hour so presumably it could be made significantly smaller to fit inside the seatpost or seat tube ?
Which is exactly why you won't find one now that they are being looked for. That doesn't mean that they haven't been used though.0 -
Joelsim wrote:adr82 wrote:
Just because someone developed a tiny battery and someone else developed a tiny motor, it doesn't mean you can simply connect the tiny motor to the tiny battery and expect it to power anything you want...Joelsim wrote:RichN95 wrote:
And now show me the motor. Or are you going to show be a 0.5W motor which through gearing provides 10W to the cranks. Do you know what torque is?Joelsim wrote:https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=world ... d=0CCAQsAQ
Or maybe a couple of watch batteries. It doesn't need to be rechargeable.
Yes I do.
Which is why the UCI inspections involve popping out the seatpost and cranks so they can check exactly those areas. Takes a few minutes, and when you see the sizes of the motors that are being used it's going to be immediately obvious if there's anything like that inside. External batteries are relatively easy to get rid of, a motor and battery that are basically moulded into your frame much less so. Some of them apparently require the frame to be cut apart to put them in place before it is repaired afterwards, so they're in there permanently after that. Not the type of thing you can quickly get rid of if you see the UCI inspectors approaching.DeVlaeminck wrote:I do think the technology is there - the link on page 1 is pretty much the finished article isn't it - I mean OK the battery is visible but then in a race situation you wouldn't need to produce the power for an hour so presumably it could be made significantly smaller to fit inside the seatpost or seat tube ?
Which is exactly why you won't find one now that they are being looked for. That doesn't mean that they haven't been used though.
I'm pretty sure that a tiny battery just means it doesn't last that long. I don't think it works at all at the sorts of power were talking about.
Electric bike motors is a multi million £ business and I don't think there's some incredible technology there not telling us about.0 -
inseine wrote:Joelsim wrote:adr82 wrote:
Just because someone developed a tiny battery and someone else developed a tiny motor, it doesn't mean you can simply connect the tiny motor to the tiny battery and expect it to power anything you want...Joelsim wrote:RichN95 wrote:
And now show me the motor. Or are you going to show be a 0.5W motor which through gearing provides 10W to the cranks. Do you know what torque is?Joelsim wrote:https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=world ... d=0CCAQsAQ
Or maybe a couple of watch batteries. It doesn't need to be rechargeable.
Yes I do.
Which is why the UCI inspections involve popping out the seatpost and cranks so they can check exactly those areas. Takes a few minutes, and when you see the sizes of the motors that are being used it's going to be immediately obvious if there's anything like that inside. External batteries are relatively easy to get rid of, a motor and battery that are basically moulded into your frame much less so. Some of them apparently require the frame to be cut apart to put them in place before it is repaired afterwards, so they're in there permanently after that. Not the type of thing you can quickly get rid of if you see the UCI inspectors approaching.DeVlaeminck wrote:I do think the technology is there - the link on page 1 is pretty much the finished article isn't it - I mean OK the battery is visible but then in a race situation you wouldn't need to produce the power for an hour so presumably it could be made significantly smaller to fit inside the seatpost or seat tube ?
Which is exactly why you won't find one now that they are being looked for. That doesn't mean that they haven't been used though.
I'm pretty sure that a tiny battery just means it doesn't last that long. I don't think it works at all at the sorts of power were talking about.
Electric bike motors is a multi million £ business and I don't think there's some incredible technology there not telling us about.
Yes it's a multi-million business to provide a motor and a rechargeable battery that will last for a while as opposed to providing a motor and a facility to stick some batteries in for one use. Don't forget they were mentioning figures of 150k each, not a production run where cost is vitally important not mentioning marketing etc etc. This whole thing is perfectly plausible.0 -
Has anyone found a picture of an actual, real life bike with everything hidden yet?
None of it makes any sense, not the figures that are being bandied about anyway. Take Hesjedal, are the team really going to spend 150 grand to put a motor in his bike knowing he isn't going to win the Vuelta anyway?
And then that 150 grand on the odd sale to a crooked cycling team would pale into insignificance compared to the money to be made on the worldwide market for something like that.0
