BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

surrey_commuter

Veronese68 wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

I guess my analogy here would be. A house is made of bricks and mortar with a roof. The roof being this wonderful utopian financial and banking system which is the Remain campaigns' main reason for staying in. Take away the individual bricks, fishing industry, steel etc etc, then you don't have a house to put a roof on.

That makes more sense. Rather than pouring billions into propping up legacy industries it may be more productive to use the money to invest in new industries and/or re-skilling the workers.

So, to use the same analogy you would replace old crumbling bricks with new stronger ones.

it is of course always best to do this sort of work before it becomes an emergency

rick_chasey

Judging by the direction of Brexit campaign and the mood, this is increasingly becoming a referendum on populism and nativism.

It's very ugly.

Come say all those EU migrant comments to my face. It's nasty.

rick_chasey

UKIP poster
Nazi propaganda

orraloon

There are images of farage smirking in front of that Kipper poster (of Syrian refugees queuing in Slovenia, nothing to do with EU /UK / in /out) at yesterday's unveiling, somewhat unfortunate timing in light of what happened yesterday to ex Oxfam, refugee help advocate Jo Cox MP, RIP.

joelsim

I am astounded that anyone who isn't a full-on racist and/or has a brain larger than that of a Labrador could possibly consider voting Leave.

Wrong economically, wrong socially and wrong morally.

veronese68

Rick Chasey wrote:

It's very ugly.
...
It's nasty.

I find it all quite depressing as well.
I know the guy had mental health issues, but were it not for all of the hate rhetoric would Jo Cox be alive today?

Edit: Sorry, got her name wrong through not concentrating.

joelsim

Veronese68 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

It's very ugly.
...
It's nasty.

I find it all quite depressing as well.
I know the guy had mental health issues, but were it not for all of the hate rhetoric would Jo Fox be alive today?

That'll only get worse if we vote to Leave. The revolting elements of the Tories coupled with a stronger base of hard-right scumbags all spouting division and hatred.

It doesn't bear thinking about and has kept me awake several times recently. Just horrible, toxic.

rick_chasey

Come on Goo.

Tell me how I've changed your country.

You wouldn't even know I was an EU immigrant unless I told you. Chances are I speak better English than you do, and I probably pay more tax than you do too.

Tell me how I've ruined it. Tell me why I ought to not be here.

You can say the same to my mother too, who has taught scores of British University students over the past 25 years.

Come on. Let's here it. Why am I so bad?

I thought the UK has a reputation for being a leading light of liberty and tolerance. You can be who you want to be, as long as you are accepting of everyone else.

The UK used to pride itself on guardians of open mindedness and inclusiveness. You're many things Goo, but you're not an embodiment of that.

So let's here why me, the EU migrant, is so bloody awful.

orraloon

Rick Chasey wrote:

Come on. Let's here it. Why am I so bad?

Bzzzt.

bendertherobot

orraloon wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Come on. Let's here it. Why am I so bad?

Bzzzt.

To be fair, Goo said queue the put downs. And there's hasn't been a rush yet

veronese68

rick_chasey

Yeah a typo.

Deport me.

mamba80

Rick Chasey wrote:

Come on Goo.

Tell me how I've changed your country.

You wouldn't even know I was an EU immigrant unless I told you. Chances are I speak better English than you do, and I probably pay more tax than you do too.

Tell me how I've ruined it. Tell me why I ought to not be here.

You can say the same to my mother too, who has taught scores of British University students over the past 25 years.

Come on. Let's here it. Why am I so bad?

I thought the UK has a reputation for being a leading light of liberty and tolerance. You can be who you want to be, as long as you are accepting of everyone else.

The UK used to pride itself on guardians of open mindedness and inclusiveness. You're many things Goo, but you're not an embodiment of that.

So let's here why me, the EU migrant, is so bloody awful.

i am still waiting for Mr Goo's response to Lookys post.

verylonglegs

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

mrfpb wrote:

mrfpb wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Coopster the 1st wrote:

Stuf

stuff

other stuff

I seem to have been defending someone else's words as my own. Apologies to Coopster and Rick

I answered Goo in a very civilised manner but got a rant about fishing - would you mind answering

I'm not sure I 'ranted' about fishing industry Mr Surrey Commuter.
As you have an economics degree, which I am sure would have involved looking at contributors to a state's economy, I wanted an explanation and your views on why you think being an EU member is beneficial to the UK Fishing fleet.

Most plebs like me know that the UK Fishing industry has been decimated by the EU. Yet it is something that the Remain campaign do not want to engage in dialogue. They merely send out a multi millionaire pop star come self proclaimed saviour of the 3rd world to slag off the fishermen.

FYI. I work in construction industry. Basic rate tax payer. Secondary school education. Small house. Wife 2 children. 2 cats. Gold tench in a small pond. Therefore officially classified as Pleb in the eyes of the educated, self righteous and who love to talk down to those who dare to think about their communities and country rather than their portfolio.

OK have just found figures from 24th September 2015 and the UK fishing industry is worth £861,000,000. Whilst that is important to the 11,800 people working in that industry it really does not matter in the grand scheme of things. The UK economy is worth nearly £3,000,000,000,000, which I think is 0.03%.

You may hate "the city" but they are the ones who fund everything

I guess my analogy here would be. A house is made of bricks and mortar with a roof. The roof being this wonderful utopian financial and banking system which is the Remain campaigns' main reason for staying in. Take away the individual bricks, fishing industry, steel etc etc, then you don't have a house to put a roof on.

That makes more sense. Rather than pouring billions into propping up legacy industries it may be more productive to use the money to invest in new industries and/or re-skilling the workers.

Yes, It was what I was saying a few pages back. UKIP is getting a hell of a lot of support in the old industrial areas, particularly up north. They've got poor prospects down to a failed investment policy going back decades and have somehow been convinced that leaving the EU will improve their lot, although I think some know full well leaving won't help but are looking at this referendum as a protest vote more than anything else, a chance to stick one to some of the politicians.

I was reading this earlier http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/nor ... e-11269819
It's a little odd in that the guy suggesting the car plants would move if we left the EU is actually all for it, he seems keen that everyone should gravitate to jobs in Goo's beloved finance sector in future, but it does illustrate a real danger in that areas that already struggle for employment could be making things a lot worse if we voted out.

joelsim

Goo's beloved finance sector will be moving to Frankfurt should we vote Leave, so he'd better get his visa application in.

gaffer_slow

Joelsim wrote:

I am astounded that anyone who isn't a full-on racist and/or has a brain larger than that of a Labrador could possibly consider voting Leave.

Wrong economically, wrong socially and wrong morally.

I can, they are misinformed - deliberately, by vested interests, and those who consider it politically expedient.

it is tragic, particularly that those that will larger contribute (by voting) to a Brexit win will be those that suffer most. disgusting.

bendertherobot

"Around half of young adults now go to university, ending up in professions such as finance or law."

Law or finance? It's slightly odd for a University Professor to reduce the amount of sectors students end up in to hyperbolic nonsense. It also demonstrates a complete lack of research about the issues facing the legal profession which, frankly, you'd be nuts to go into right now.

bendertherobot

gaffer_slow wrote:

Joelsim wrote:

I am astounded that anyone who isn't a full-on racist and/or has a brain larger than that of a Labrador could possibly consider voting Leave.

Wrong economically, wrong socially and wrong morally.

I can, they are misinformed - deliberately, by vested interests, and those who consider it politically expedient.

it is tragic, particularly that those that will larger contribute to a Brexit win will be those that suffer most. disgusting.

It's a real pity/scandal/outrage that those who are so keen to "stick it to the man" are in areas where the man who they are sticking it to has done a lot to help them. And the man they are not sticking it to has done oh so very little.

joelsim

gaffer_slow wrote:

Joelsim wrote:

I am astounded that anyone who isn't a full-on racist and/or has a brain larger than that of a Labrador could possibly consider voting Leave.

Wrong economically, wrong socially and wrong morally.

I can, they are misinformed - deliberately, by vested interests, and those who consider it politically expedient.

it is tragic, particularly that those that will larger contribute (by voting) to a Brexit win will be those that suffer most. disgusting.

You're right in that those who are voting for Brexit appear to be those who'll lose the most. Shame they don't understand what they're voting for really. And the rest of us who do have at least a bearing on economic issues will lose out massively too.

Ben6899

Mr Goo is a xenophobe. It's abundantly clear from his posts.

cycleclinic

Leave have convinced there side that the 8 or 10 billion saved in membership fees after rebate e.t.c is going to make a difference. i.e those deprived communities well not just them but that is where UKIP support is strong.

The u.k government/local councils spends £771.9 billion in 2016/7. Even if you take the gross figure of £17 you are still only talking 2% of government expenditure or 0.85% of GDP. If you take the real figure then what we get back is lower.

How does such a modest change in expenditure going to make any difference. It won't. the thing is how do yo explain this to people. They just see a large number and think that will do.

The main problem with the government industrial policy is they choose to let industries that where in trouble in part due to mismangement, to go under without doing anything to replace them. The people left are then trapped and get angry. It is quite understandable. However that is a ongoing issue with big u.k firms they are not structured right. Looks at Tata and BHS both where weighed down by big final salary pension funds in deficit. There is one thing that has to be fixed. These are a boat anchor on everyone.

Also the fishing industry is small. worth some condsideration but every industry struggles but why does ours struggle more or is it the same in every EU country. So much misinformation it is difficult to say. There are alternative models for managing fishstocks I do not know if our government has even tried proposing these.

However at least campaigning has paused. shame it took the murder of an MP to knock some sense into the campaigns. It just shows how out of control they got. And now Merkl has ticked us off, too right as well.

We do it to ourselves just us, us and no one else....

gaffer_slow

i was saying the other day, that whilst i was worried that Project Fear numbers might be right it probably wouldn't be too bad for a nice middle class chap from the South like myself - but that i was more worried about what it says about our society (as before, misinformed and manipulated) and the sentiments that were bubbling up culturally are now the "majority".

veronese68

thecycleclinic wrote:

Leave have convinced there side that the 8 or 10 billion saved in membership fees after rebate e.t.c is going to make a difference. i.e those deprived communities well not just them but that is where UKIP support is strong.

The u.k government/local councils spends £771.9 billion in 2016/7. Even if you take the gross figure of £17 you are still only talking 2% of government expenditure or 0.85% of GDP. If you take the real figure then what we get back is lower.

How does such a modest change in expenditure going to make any difference. It won't. the thing is how do yo explain this to people. They just see a large number and think that will do.

Even more of a drop in the ocean compared to the effect of a downturn in the economy. But you can't tell someone that won't listen, especially if they have their fingers in their ears and are shouting "lalalala can't hear you."

bendertherobot

It all comes back to the £350 million and maths. No one has pressed anyone on the maths but Boris promised that, for example, research and stuff would be protected. So, it appears to me that, the £8.5 billion (?) (that's the sum we send net of getting anything back) goes to the NHS. That leaves the balance on the gross figure of £4.5 billion with which we then have to fund (grants, subsidies etc) everything from fishermen and farmers to Universities to new swimming pools and infrastructure. Doesn't sound like much.

And, that's the money spent. So it requires zero contraction of the economy to be better off financially. I've seen no actual breakdown of how all those things that the EU gives grants to will be dealt with after we exit. Other than faith and hope.

kingstongraham

Radio 4 More or Less made the £350 million figure clear.

It is only correct to say that we will have £350 million a week more to spend on public services if we assume that after we pull out of the EU and stop paying, the other EU members continue to send us the £90 million a week rebate. This is considered unlikely.

bendertherobot

KingstonGraham wrote:

Radio 4 More or Less made the £350 million figure clear.

It is only correct to say that we will have £350 million a week more to spend on public services if we assume that after we pull out of the EU and stop paying, the other EU members continue to send us the £90 million a week rebate. This is considered unlikely.

Though, presumably, once we invoke Article 50 we will continue to pay (and receive) until we exit. And this ignores a Norway style agreement where we continue to pay and receive no rebate.

surrey_commuter

bendertherobot wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

Radio 4 More or Less made the £350 million figure clear.

It is only correct to say that we will have £350 million a week more to spend on public services if we assume that after we pull out of the EU and stop paying, the other EU members continue to send us the £90 million a week rebate. This is considered unlikely.

Though, presumably, once we invoke Article 50 we will continue to pay (and receive) until we exit. And this ignores a Norway style agreement where we continue to pay and receive no rebate.

Let's do the math

Our gross annual payment is £18bn
Our net annual payment is £8bn
Our annual rebate is £5bn

This means that we get £5bn subsidies to Farmers, Fishymen, and deprived economic areas. I think it is safe to assume that Gove/Boris will not be cutting this it only leaves £3bn a year for our post-Brexit bonanza.

kingstongraham

mathS

surrey_commuter

KingstonGraham wrote:

mathS

I was trying to be cosmopolitan

Anonymous

Gents, this is actually making for very good reading and further strengthening my "in" resolve. The ones which is harder to debate is the law making process.

How does it work in practice and what "control" do we have/gain/ lose from the unelected bureaucrats for voting out.

Also what about the money wastage in Brussels, lack of financial accountability, lack of filed accounts for years?

Also what about the long term aims of EU -> fiscal/monetary union / EU superstate?