BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴
Comments
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If he wanted to have a game of Whiff Whaff, he'd need an opponent though. I wonder if he's any good at it, can he put spin on his shots?0
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We aren't a member, but are subject to EU rules, under the jurisdiction of the ECJ, bound by the EU VAT code and the EU state aid regime - and by definition have not regained control of our laws, borders or moneyStevo_666 said:
Ask yourself the following question: is this country still an EU member? The answer should help you answer the questiontailwindhome said:
Yet, it isn'tStevo_666 said:A spot of realism from Tony Blair.
https://telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/06/30/brexit-wont-overturned-least-generation-admits-tony-blair/
Quotes:
Tony Blair has admitted that Brexit will not be overturned for at least a generation but insisted Britain needs to “fix” its trading relationship with Europe.
The former Prime Minister, a leading advocate of a second referendum, conceded that the argument over the decision to leave the EU was now settled.
“However passionately I opposed Brexit, I understand we’ve done it,” Sir Tony told a conference in central London organised by his think tank.
“We’ve done it legally, we’ve done it politically and it’s not going to be reversed any time soon – let’s say any time in this generation."
When the Brexit trade deal was agreed in October 2019, he said MPs should extend Britain’s membership of the bloc and hold another vote on staying in.
But last year he dropped his calls for a re-run, saying that although he had not changed his mind about leaving “we must make the best of it”.
He also has an unpopular on here (but correct) view that Brexit is done
If that's now a definition of Brexit, then yes, Brexit is done
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
Not sure who you have in mind here. Genuinely not seen anyone actively campaigning to rejoin.Stevo_666 said:
Starmer reportedly to announce no return to Freedom of Movement and no rejoining the Single Market or customs union. Not looking great for those who think we can just waltz back in as it now requires the pro-rejoin parties (Lib Dems and the SNP?) to get control at the next election: squadron of pigs on standby.tailwindhome said:Labour positioning as 'Make Brexit Work'
And that's assuming the EU would have trouble makers like us back...1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
rjsterry said:
Not sure who you have in mind here. Genuinely not seen anyone actively campaigning to rejoin.Stevo_666 said:
Starmer reportedly to announce no return to Freedom of Movement and no rejoining the Single Market or customs union. Not looking great for those who think we can just waltz back in as it now requires the pro-rejoin parties (Lib Dems and the SNP?) to get control at the next election: squadron of pigs on standby.tailwindhome said:Labour positioning as 'Make Brexit Work'
And that's assuming the EU would have trouble makers like us back...
Obviously I'd like the UK to rejoin, or at least move in that general direction, but I realise it would be a long-term project. I was glad to see the word 'pragmatism' in Starmer's approach, and the idea of chipping away at the ridiculous barriers Johnson & Frost have put up, all for some unattainable 'principle' of sovereignty. Looking back at debates from the 70s, it's been a toxic subject for both Labour and the Tories since then (and the fault lines have barely moved), but this ridiculous experiment in isolatioin from the EU might actually, in time, move the debate on, given the real-time economic reality of antagonising our nearest neighbours.0 -
Keep flying the flag.ddraver said:0 -
It’s not new, but the thread dissects the ongoing Tory claim that the vaccine rollout was one of the big calls Spaffer got right. It’s about the only flag the Tories have got to fly. It’s a highly disputed fact (you could almost call it a lie) that is continually peddled by Johnson supporters.TheBigBean said:
Keep flying the flag.ddraver said:
Is that the flag you meant?0 -
Is the UK still a member of the EU? it really is that simpletailwindhome said:
We aren't a member, but are subject to EU rules, under the jurisdiction of the ECJ, bound by the EU VAT code and the EU state aid regime - and by definition have not regained control of our laws, borders or moneyStevo_666 said:
Ask yourself the following question: is this country still an EU member? The answer should help you answer the questiontailwindhome said:
Yet, it isn'tStevo_666 said:A spot of realism from Tony Blair.
https://telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/06/30/brexit-wont-overturned-least-generation-admits-tony-blair/
Quotes:
Tony Blair has admitted that Brexit will not be overturned for at least a generation but insisted Britain needs to “fix” its trading relationship with Europe.
The former Prime Minister, a leading advocate of a second referendum, conceded that the argument over the decision to leave the EU was now settled.
“However passionately I opposed Brexit, I understand we’ve done it,” Sir Tony told a conference in central London organised by his think tank.
“We’ve done it legally, we’ve done it politically and it’s not going to be reversed any time soon – let’s say any time in this generation."
When the Brexit trade deal was agreed in October 2019, he said MPs should extend Britain’s membership of the bloc and hold another vote on staying in.
But last year he dropped his calls for a re-run, saying that although he had not changed his mind about leaving “we must make the best of it”.
He also has an unpopular on here (but correct) view that Brexit is done
If that's now a definition of Brexit, then yes, Brexit is done
Hopefully you will agree that Canada is not a part of the USA but they will have to bow to their much bigger neighbour to make their lives easier and more prosperous1 -
That's going to be an interesting sell to Brexiteers. 🤣surrey_commuter said:
Is the UK still a member of the EU? it really is that simpletailwindhome said:
We aren't a member, but are subject to EU rules, under the jurisdiction of the ECJ, bound by the EU VAT code and the EU state aid regime - and by definition have not regained control of our laws, borders or moneyStevo_666 said:
Ask yourself the following question: is this country still an EU member? The answer should help you answer the questiontailwindhome said:
Yet, it isn'tStevo_666 said:A spot of realism from Tony Blair.
https://telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/06/30/brexit-wont-overturned-least-generation-admits-tony-blair/
Quotes:
Tony Blair has admitted that Brexit will not be overturned for at least a generation but insisted Britain needs to “fix” its trading relationship with Europe.
The former Prime Minister, a leading advocate of a second referendum, conceded that the argument over the decision to leave the EU was now settled.
“However passionately I opposed Brexit, I understand we’ve done it,” Sir Tony told a conference in central London organised by his think tank.
“We’ve done it legally, we’ve done it politically and it’s not going to be reversed any time soon – let’s say any time in this generation."
When the Brexit trade deal was agreed in October 2019, he said MPs should extend Britain’s membership of the bloc and hold another vote on staying in.
But last year he dropped his calls for a re-run, saying that although he had not changed his mind about leaving “we must make the best of it”.
He also has an unpopular on here (but correct) view that Brexit is done
If that's now a definition of Brexit, then yes, Brexit is done
Hopefully you will agree that Canada is not a part of the USA but they will have to bow to their much bigger neighbour to make their lives easier and more prosperousThe above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Canada isn't obliged to follow US law or under the jurisdiction of the US courtssurrey_commuter said:
Is the UK still a member of the EU? it really is that simpletailwindhome said:
We aren't a member, but are subject to EU rules, under the jurisdiction of the ECJ, bound by the EU VAT code and the EU state aid regime - and by definition have not regained control of our laws, borders or moneyStevo_666 said:
Ask yourself the following question: is this country still an EU member? The answer should help you answer the questiontailwindhome said:
Yet, it isn'tStevo_666 said:A spot of realism from Tony Blair.
https://telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/06/30/brexit-wont-overturned-least-generation-admits-tony-blair/
Quotes:
Tony Blair has admitted that Brexit will not be overturned for at least a generation but insisted Britain needs to “fix” its trading relationship with Europe.
The former Prime Minister, a leading advocate of a second referendum, conceded that the argument over the decision to leave the EU was now settled.
“However passionately I opposed Brexit, I understand we’ve done it,” Sir Tony told a conference in central London organised by his think tank.
“We’ve done it legally, we’ve done it politically and it’s not going to be reversed any time soon – let’s say any time in this generation."
When the Brexit trade deal was agreed in October 2019, he said MPs should extend Britain’s membership of the bloc and hold another vote on staying in.
But last year he dropped his calls for a re-run, saying that although he had not changed his mind about leaving “we must make the best of it”.
He also has an unpopular on here (but correct) view that Brexit is done
If that's now a definition of Brexit, then yes, Brexit is done
Hopefully you will agree that Canada is not a part of the USA but they will have to bow to their much bigger neighbour to make their lives easier and more prosperous
It's not a valid comparison
As I pointed out every previous time we've gone round this argument, had a version of Brexit in which we weren't a member, but were obliged to follow the rules as I've described above, been considered to be getting Brexit done- we'd have saved an awful lot of trouble.
If you think Brexit is done- by the terms Brexiteers insisted were required- answer a simple question
Can the UK Chancellor of the Exchequer, if he decides to do so, reduce VAT on fuel to 0% in the UK?
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
I think you know the answer is "yes, in the bit of the UK that really matters".tailwindhome said:
Can the UK Chancellor of the Exchequer, if he decides to do so, reduce VAT on fuel to 0% in the UK?
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Well, yes, the assertion that 'we've left the EU', doesn't depend on the definition of 'leaving the EU', it depends on your definition of 'we'“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0
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Such a telling comment.kingstongraham said:
I think you know the answer is "yes, in the bit of the UK that really matters".tailwindhome said:
Can the UK Chancellor of the Exchequer, if he decides to do so, reduce VAT on fuel to 0% in the UK?The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
I don't think that's KG's personal view. But others have made very clear that they DGAF about NI.pblakeney said:
Such a telling comment.kingstongraham said:
I think you know the answer is "yes, in the bit of the UK that really matters".tailwindhome said:
Can the UK Chancellor of the Exchequer, if he decides to do so, reduce VAT on fuel to 0% in the UK?1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Yeah, telling from whoever has that opinion.rjsterry said:
I don't think that's KG's personal view. But others have made very clear that they DGAF about NI.pblakeney said:
Such a telling comment.kingstongraham said:
I think you know the answer is "yes, in the bit of the UK that really matters".tailwindhome said:
Can the UK Chancellor of the Exchequer, if he decides to do so, reduce VAT on fuel to 0% in the UK?
#littleenglandersThe above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
It's all a conspiracy, why won't people listen. "3. These facts have not only been concealed by Gov and media alike".pinkbikini said:
It’s not new, but the thread dissects the ongoing Tory claim that the vaccine rollout was one of the big calls Spaffer got right. It’s about the only flag the Tories have got to fly. It’s a highly disputed fact (you could almost call it a lie) that is continually peddled by Johnson supporters.TheBigBean said:
Keep flying the flag.ddraver said:
Is that the flag you meant?
The whole thing was discussed at length at the time. I would have thought only Ursula's mum would have been quite so keen to keep the fight going, but it appears that there are some others too.
In my eyes, the only mistake the UK government made on vaccines was not vaccinating even earlier i.e. they were too cautious. I do understand the counter argument though.0 -
They're trying to sort that out for you.tailwindhome said:
Can the UK Chancellor of the Exchequer, if he decides to do so, reduce VAT on fuel to 0% in the UK?0 -
So it's still incomplete.TheBigBean said:
They're trying to sort that out for you.tailwindhome said:
Can the UK Chancellor of the Exchequer, if he decides to do so, reduce VAT on fuel to 0% in the UK?1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Complete in GB, not in NI. No idea why so much is debated about this.rjsterry said:
So it's still incomplete.TheBigBean said:
They're trying to sort that out for you.tailwindhome said:
Can the UK Chancellor of the Exchequer, if he decides to do so, reduce VAT on fuel to 0% in the UK?0 -
None of this Tory U turn stuff for KeirTheBigBean said:
Copied from elsewhere on internet. Not remotely checked.Stevo_666 said:
But surely Starmer is a man of honour and keeps his word?briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Starmer reportedly to announce no return to Freedom of Movement and no rejoining the Single Market or customs union. Not looking great for those who think we can just waltz back in as it now requires the pro-rejoin parties (Lib Dems and the SNP?) to get control at the next election: squadron of pigs on standby.tailwindhome said:Labour positioning as 'Make Brexit Work'
And that's assuming the EU would have trouble makers like us back...
It would be suicide to say that at this stage, so I'm not surprised. Maybe that's their final word, or maybe they will see how things pan out, both in practical terms and in how the politics evolve.
After all, the Tories didn't tell everyone they were going to raise taxes at the last election...Starmer during the referendum: We are campaigning to remain
Starmer after the referendum: We accept the referendum result to leave the EU
Starmer after becoming Shadow Brexit Secretary: We need to have a Second Referendum
Starmer at the 2019 GE: Labour is 'the party of Remain'
Starmer running for Labour Leader: I will campaign to rejoin the Single Market and Freedom of Movement
Starmer after becoming Labour Leader: We will vote for Boris Johnson's Brexit deal
Starmer now: I do not support rejoining the Single Market or Freedom of Movement
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Is Boris the PM of GB or UK?0
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A lot different.TheBigBean said:
USMCA which is quite a bit different to both the EU and federalising.rick_chasey said:
They're part of NAFTA aren't they?TheBigBean said:Examples not relating to the EU would be more helpful. For example, is it a popular idea in Canada to be join up with the US?
Yep. Some people are deluding themselves.surrey_commuter said:
Is the UK still a member of the EU? it really is that simpletailwindhome said:
We aren't a member, but are subject to EU rules, under the jurisdiction of the ECJ, bound by the EU VAT code and the EU state aid regime - and by definition have not regained control of our laws, borders or moneyStevo_666 said:
Ask yourself the following question: is this country still an EU member? The answer should help you answer the questiontailwindhome said:
Yet, it isn'tStevo_666 said:A spot of realism from Tony Blair.
https://telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/06/30/brexit-wont-overturned-least-generation-admits-tony-blair/
Quotes:
Tony Blair has admitted that Brexit will not be overturned for at least a generation but insisted Britain needs to “fix” its trading relationship with Europe.
The former Prime Minister, a leading advocate of a second referendum, conceded that the argument over the decision to leave the EU was now settled.
“However passionately I opposed Brexit, I understand we’ve done it,” Sir Tony told a conference in central London organised by his think tank.
“We’ve done it legally, we’ve done it politically and it’s not going to be reversed any time soon – let’s say any time in this generation."
When the Brexit trade deal was agreed in October 2019, he said MPs should extend Britain’s membership of the bloc and hold another vote on staying in.
But last year he dropped his calls for a re-run, saying that although he had not changed his mind about leaving “we must make the best of it”.
He also has an unpopular on here (but correct) view that Brexit is done
If that's now a definition of Brexit, then yes, Brexit is done"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Whatever suits him best at that point in time.Jezyboy said:Is Boris the PM of GB or UK?
The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
I could name a couple who are ousting that agenda or something that effectively means rejoining, such as rejoining the SM. All I am trying to do here is inject a spot of realism so that people's energies can be better spent on things that might yield results.rjsterry said:
Not sure who you have in mind here. Genuinely not seen anyone actively campaigning to rejoin.Stevo_666 said:
Starmer reportedly to announce no return to Freedom of Movement and no rejoining the Single Market or customs union. Not looking great for those who think we can just waltz back in as it now requires the pro-rejoin parties (Lib Dems and the SNP?) to get control at the next election: squadron of pigs on standby.tailwindhome said:Labour positioning as 'Make Brexit Work'
And that's assuming the EU would have trouble makers like us back..."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Am getting pretty fed up for the Remainer apologists for Starmer's position on the CU and SM.
Basically giving him a pass because he's not BoJo.
F*ck no. It's working against the national interest. One party needs to stand up for it ffs. This narrative that you need to go along with populist nonsense to get elected just isn't right.
Making promises like that is just a route to a kicking - if you promise something that is demonstrably bad for the nation, eventually if you do make it to PM you'll either cost the nation or go back on your promise.
Why?
Just be honest. "Brexit is not something any of us would like to revisit. We recognise the vote, and recognise the short comings of the current situation. We do not want to paralyse government and parliaments across the UK by making wholesale change to our relationship with Europe, but we recognise there are ways to improve it that respect the result"
It's not that hard. There's a f*cktonne of stuff that needs fixing that they can focus on.
F*cking useless labour leadership. Basic. The guy is a classic lawyer - lacks any f*cking strategy and big picture thinking, and is stuck in the weeds.0 -
Last time I checked, GB is not a state.TheBigBean said:
Complete in GB, not in NI. No idea why so much is debated about this.rjsterry said:
Sfo it's still incomplete.TheBigBean said:
They're trying to sort that out for you.tailwindhome said:
Can the UK Chancellor of the Exchequer, if he decides to do so, reduce VAT on fuel to 0% in the UK?1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
I agree that the UK (partly or wholly) being in the single market is fully compatible with Brexit being fulfilled.Stevo_666 said:
A lot different.TheBigBean said:
USMCA which is quite a bit different to both the EU and federalising.rick_chasey said:
They're part of NAFTA aren't they?TheBigBean said:Examples not relating to the EU would be more helpful. For example, is it a popular idea in Canada to be join up with the US?
Yep. Some people are deluding themselves.surrey_commuter said:
Is the UK still a member of the EU? it really is that simpletailwindhome said:
We aren't a member, but are subject to EU rules, under the jurisdiction of the ECJ, bound by the EU VAT code and the EU state aid regime - and by definition have not regained control of our laws, borders or moneyStevo_666 said:
Ask yourself the following question: is this country still an EU member? The answer should help you answer the questiontailwindhome said:
Yet, it isn'tStevo_666 said:A spot of realism from Tony Blair.
https://telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/06/30/brexit-wont-overturned-least-generation-admits-tony-blair/
Quotes:
Tony Blair has admitted that Brexit will not be overturned for at least a generation but insisted Britain needs to “fix” its trading relationship with Europe.
The former Prime Minister, a leading advocate of a second referendum, conceded that the argument over the decision to leave the EU was now settled.
“However passionately I opposed Brexit, I understand we’ve done it,” Sir Tony told a conference in central London organised by his think tank.
“We’ve done it legally, we’ve done it politically and it’s not going to be reversed any time soon – let’s say any time in this generation."
When the Brexit trade deal was agreed in October 2019, he said MPs should extend Britain’s membership of the bloc and hold another vote on staying in.
But last year he dropped his calls for a re-run, saying that although he had not changed his mind about leaving “we must make the best of it”.
He also has an unpopular on here (but correct) view that Brexit is done
If that's now a definition of Brexit, then yes, Brexit is done
I think those who do not agree are those who were previously Brexit supporters, for the most part.0 -
Agree with your last paragraph for sure.rick_chasey said:Am getting pretty fed up for the Remainer apologists for Starmer's position on the CU and SM.
Basically giving him a pass because he's not BoJo.
F*ck no. It's working against the national interest. One party needs to stand up for it ffs. This narrative that you need to go along with populist nonsense to get elected just isn't right.
Making promises like that is just a route to a kicking - if you promise something that is demonstrably bad for the nation, eventually if you do make it to PM you'll either cost the nation or go back on your promise.
Why?
Just be honest. "Brexit is not something any of us would like to revisit. We recognise the vote, and recognise the short comings of the current situation. We do not want to paralyse government and parliaments across the UK by making wholesale change to our relationship with Europe, but we recognise there are ways to improve it that respect the result"
It's not that hard. There's a f*cktonne of stuff that needs fixing that they can focus on.
F*cking useless labour leadership. Basic. The guy is a classic lawyer - lacks any f*cking strategy and big picture thinking, and is stuck in the weeds.
I think your post is a recognition that Labour were the last hope to get back into the EU in some shape or form (as let's face it they are the only party other than the Tories who could feasibly form a government) - and they have just turned round and said thay are not interested in rejoining.
Disappointing for some of you, but reality appears to be catching up with those that were missed first time round."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
LITERALLY NOBODY THINKS WE'RE ABOUT TO REJOIN THE EU ANY TIME SOON. NOBODY HAS FOR YEARS NOW.Stevo_666 said:
Agree with your last paragraph for sure.rick_chasey said:Am getting pretty fed up for the Remainer apologists for Starmer's position on the CU and SM.
Basically giving him a pass because he's not BoJo.
F*ck no. It's working against the national interest. One party needs to stand up for it ffs. This narrative that you need to go along with populist nonsense to get elected just isn't right.
Making promises like that is just a route to a kicking - if you promise something that is demonstrably bad for the nation, eventually if you do make it to PM you'll either cost the nation or go back on your promise.
Why?
Just be honest. "Brexit is not something any of us would like to revisit. We recognise the vote, and recognise the short comings of the current situation. We do not want to paralyse government and parliaments across the UK by making wholesale change to our relationship with Europe, but we recognise there are ways to improve it that respect the result"
It's not that hard. There's a f*cktonne of stuff that needs fixing that they can focus on.
F*cking useless labour leadership. Basic. The guy is a classic lawyer - lacks any f*cking strategy and big picture thinking, and is stuck in the weeds.
I think your post is a recognition that Labour were the last hope to get back into the EU in some shape or form (as let's face it they are the only party other than the Tories who could feasibly form a government) - and they have just turned round and said thay are not interested in rejoining.
Disappointing for some of you, but reality appears to be catching up with those that were missed first time round.1 -
rick_chasey said:
Am getting pretty fed up for the Remainer apologists for Starmer's position on the CU and SM.
Basically giving him a pass because he's not BoJo.
F*ck no. It's working against the national interest. One party needs to stand up for it ffs. This narrative that you need to go along with populist nonsense to get elected just isn't right.
Making promises like that is just a route to a kicking - if you promise something that is demonstrably bad for the nation, eventually if you do make it to PM you'll either cost the nation or go back on your promise.
Why?
Just be honest. "Brexit is not something any of us would like to revisit. We recognise the vote, and recognise the short comings of the current situation. We do not want to paralyse government and parliaments across the UK by making wholesale change to our relationship with Europe, but we recognise there are ways to improve it that respect the result"
It's not that hard. There's a f*cktonne of stuff that needs fixing that they can focus on.
F*cking useless labour leadership. Basic. The guy is a classic lawyer - lacks any f*cking strategy and big picture thinking, and is stuck in the weeds.
Hmm, part of me agrees, but then we might be in the territory of doing the right thing but not getting anywhere near power to be able to put it into action (see the rabid lefties ad nauseam who hanker for a pure socialist stance that the electorate will never choose).
Stevo seems to think that because unravelling the worst aspects of Brexit is going to take a long time, it's not worth doing at all, but if we are going to unravel it, the first step is to get rid of this bunch of incompetents, and then demonstrate that closer working with the EU brings tangible economic benefits. Then, and only then, might the debate change far enough to be able to make bolder suggestions.0
