BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

pblakeney

Stevo 666 wrote:

Sturgeon is under the impression that Scotland is a separate country now. It is not, it is part of the UK. London voted overall to remain in around the same percentage as Scotland, but I don't see Londoners trying to break away and unilaterally stay in the EU.

I suppose the question is, would they if they could?

surrey_commuter

PBlakeney wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Sturgeon is under the impression that Scotland is a separate country now. It is not, it is part of the UK. London voted overall to remain in around the same percentage as Scotland, but I don't see Londoners trying to break away and unilaterally stay in the EU.

I suppose the question is, would they if they could?

Londoners - probably yes

People living in London - probably no

surrey_commuter

Ballysmate wrote:

An interesting result in Lithuania. A direct result of the free movement in the EU

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10 ... lithuania/

Something must be done!!! Send them back to where they belong. Farking emigrants leaving our country, taking our jobs with them.

Bobbinogs

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

An interesting result in Lithuania. A direct result of the free movement in the EU

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10 ... lithuania/

Something must be done!!! Send them back to where they belong. Farking emigrants leaving our country, taking our jobs with them.

mmm, that is a really interesting development. When I first clicked on the link I was expecting the surprise result to be an anti-immigration party winning...but anti-emigration is a new one on me. it does make logical sense to be living somewhere like Poland, Lithuania, etc., and worried about the medium term future given that many bright young people with 'get up and go' and got up and gone! It is easy to joke about the chances of finding a plasterer in Poland being about the same as rocking horse poo but the losses in the skilled professions must be harder to laugh away.

rick_chasey

Stevo 666 wrote:

Sturgeon is under the impression that Scotland is a separate country now. It is not, it is part of the UK. London voted overall to remain in around the same percentage as Scotland, but I don't see Londoners trying to break away and unilaterally stay in the EU.

London doesn't have a good few hundred / near a thousand years of separatist history.

Scotland does.

You'd know this if you thought history wasn't a waste of time.

wallace_and_gromit

Rick Chasey wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Sturgeon is under the impression that Scotland is a separate country now. It is not, it is part of the UK. London voted overall to remain in around the same percentage as Scotland, but I don't see Londoners trying to break away and unilaterally stay in the EU.

London doesn't have a good few hundred / near a thousand years of separatist history.

Scotland does.

You'd know this if you thought history wasn't a waste of time.

Scotland and London have exactly the same powers granted by the UK government in respect of foreign affairs and signing treaties etc. i.e. none. Whole empires and political systems have come and gone since Scotland was last independent, so I'm not sure history is of anything other than academic interest on this one.

ballysmate

Rick Chasey wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Sturgeon is under the impression that Scotland is a separate country now. It is not, it is part of the UK. London voted overall to remain in around the same percentage as Scotland, but I don't see Londoners trying to break away and unilaterally stay in the EU.

London doesn't have a good few hundred / near a thousand years of separatist history.

Scotland does.

You'd know this if you thought history wasn't a waste of time.

People seem to have no problem in accepting the rationale of Scotland wanting to break from a Union, hundreds of years old, but splutter at the thought of the UK breaking from a union only 40 years old. :?

rick_chasey

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Sturgeon is under the impression that Scotland is a separate country now. It is not, it is part of the UK. London voted overall to remain in around the same percentage as Scotland, but I don't see Londoners trying to break away and unilaterally stay in the EU.

London doesn't have a good few hundred / near a thousand years of separatist history.

Scotland does.

You'd know this if you thought history wasn't a waste of time.

Scotland and London have exactly the same powers granted by the UK government in respect of foreign affairs and signing treaties etc. i.e. none. Whole empires and political systems have come and gone since Scotland was last independent, so I'm not sure history is of anything other than academic interest on this one.

That and, y'know, the third biggest party in the commons being a Scottish Separatist party.

I've yet to find one MP who's part of the London Separatist party.

wallace_and_gromit

Rick Chasey wrote:

That and, y'know, the third biggest party in the commons being a Scottish Separatist party.

My view on this is that voting for the SNP in a general election is a fairly safe protest vote for Scots as it's highly unlikely to affect which party becomes the UK governing party and so doesn't really incur any risks.

But actually leaving the UK is a whole different ball game and when the chance was offered only 8 months prior to the general election, it was rejected. So for better or worse, Scotland remains part of the UK, with some devolved powers.

If/when Scotland becomes independent it will of course be free to determine its own relationship with the EU but until then it can't and its MPs and MSPs should work constructively with the UK government to help secure the best terms for its biggest export market. Scotland "exports" over 4 times as much to the UK as it does to the rest of the EU.

rick_chasey

I'm not arguing that am I?

In explaining the difference between London separatism (non existent) and Scottish separatism (has been around a while).

bompington

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

Whole empires and political systems have come and gone since Scotland was last independent, so I'm not sure history is of anything other than academic interest on this one.

You don't spend a lot of time in Scotland, do you.

mamba80

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

That and, y'know, the third biggest party in the commons being a Scottish Separatist party.

My view on this is that voting for the SNP in a general election is a fairly safe protest vote for Scots as it's highly unlikely to affect which party becomes the UK governing party and so doesn't really incur any risks.

Are you serious? with a working Conservative majority of only 12 MPs - Labour could easily have won the last election if they d not been decimated in Scotland.

Stevo_666

mamba80 wrote:

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

That and, y'know, the third biggest party in the commons being a Scottish Separatist party.

My view on this is that voting for the SNP in a general election is a fairly safe protest vote for Scots as it's highly unlikely to affect which party becomes the UK governing party and so doesn't really incur any risks.

Are you serious? with a working Conservative majority of only 12 MPs - Labour could easily have won the last election if they d not been decimated in Scotland.

But they didn't did they. A bit like the referendum would have been won if a million or so more people voted to remain.

Stevo_666

Rick Chasey wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Sturgeon is under the impression that Scotland is a separate country now. It is not, it is part of the UK. London voted overall to remain in around the same percentage as Scotland, but I don't see Londoners trying to break away and unilaterally stay in the EU.

London doesn't have a good few hundred / near a thousand years of separatist history.

Scotland does.

You'd know this if you thought history wasn't a waste of time.

But not separatist enough to be in a 300+ year old union with the UK - which as Bally has mentioned is way older than the EU. I thought you'd know that, what with being so hot on history.

rick_chasey

You were talking about London separatism.

Stevo_666

Anyone remember this?



in particular point 4.

rick_chasey

Rick Chasey wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Sturgeon is under the impression that Scotland is a separate country now. It is not, it is part of the UK. London voted overall to remain in around the same percentage as Scotland, but I don't see Londoners trying to break away and unilaterally stay in the EU.

London doesn't have a good few hundred / near a thousand years of separatist history.

Scotland does.

You'd know this if you thought history wasn't a waste of time.

Here you go Stevo.

Don't get confused.

bompington

mamba80 wrote:

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

That and, y'know, the third biggest party in the commons being a Scottish Separatist party.

My view on this is that voting for the SNP in a general election is a fairly safe protest vote for Scots as it's highly unlikely to affect which party becomes the UK governing party and so doesn't really incur any risks.

Are you serious? with a working Conservative majority of only 12 MPs - Labour could easily have won the last election if they d not been decimated in Scotland.

Let's do some Maths.

Current status:
Con 331
Lab 232
SNP 56

Con majority 12.

Let's imagine that Labour had completely reversed the SNP's success and won 55 of the 56 SNP seats.

Con 331
Lab 287
SNP 1

Con majority.. err..... 12.

mamba80

bompington wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

That and, y'know, the third biggest party in the commons being a Scottish Separatist party.

My view on this is that voting for the SNP in a general election is a fairly safe protest vote for Scots as it's highly unlikely to affect which party becomes the UK governing party and so doesn't really incur any risks.

Are you serious? with a working Conservative majority of only 12 MPs - Labour could easily have won the last election if they d not been decimated in Scotland.

Let's do some Maths.

Current status:
Con 331
Lab 232
SNP 56

Con majority 12.

Let's imagine that Labour had completely reversed the SNP's success and won 55 of the 56 SNP seats.

Con 331
Lab 287
SNP 1

Con majority.. err..... 12.

i hate a smart arse :oops:

Stevo_666

mamba80 wrote:

bompington wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

That and, y'know, the third biggest party in the commons being a Scottish Separatist party.

My view on this is that voting for the SNP in a general election is a fairly safe protest vote for Scots as it's highly unlikely to affect which party becomes the UK governing party and so doesn't really incur any risks.

Are you serious? with a working Conservative majority of only 12 MPs - Labour could easily have won the last election if they d not been decimated in Scotland.

Let's do some Maths.

Current status:
Con 331
Lab 232
SNP 56

Con majority 12.

Let's imagine that Labour had completely reversed the SNP's success and won 55 of the 56 SNP seats.

Con 331
Lab 287
SNP 1

Con majority.. err..... 12.

i hate a smart ars* :oops:

Damn, Bompington beat me to it . I suppose I had my fun in the Mondelez imaginary tax avoidance thread

Stevo_666

Bobbinogs wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

An interesting result in Lithuania. A direct result of the free movement in the EU

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10 ... lithuania/

Something must be done!!! Send them back to where they belong. Farking emigrants leaving our country, taking our jobs with them.

mmm, that is a really interesting development. When I first clicked on the link I was expecting the surprise result to be an anti-immigration party winning...but anti-emigration is a new one on me. it does make logical sense to be living somewhere like Poland, Lithuania, etc., and worried about the medium term future given that many bright young people with 'get up and go' and got up and gone! It is easy to joke about the chances of finding a plasterer in Poland being about the same as rocking horse poo but the losses in the skilled professions must be harder to laugh away.

It is interesting because for every country that is very popular with people who want to come here (like the UK) there will be those where the reverse applies. Like you say though, it's a bit harder to stop people leaving against their will unless you go a bit totalitarian on people.

That said, we do have parties whose polices are anti economic growth, although I already started another thread for that one

rick_chasey

Hammond saying what I have been (along with many others)
https://twitter.com/michaelsavage/statu ... 3858791424

Hammond warns that whatever economic merits of a good exit deal for Europe, EU leaders worried about damaging their EU "political project".

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/ ... 7381478400

HAmmond message - don't necessarily expect the economically rational outcome from Brexit negotiation.

surrey_commuter

mamba80 wrote:

bompington wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

That and, y'know, the third biggest party in the commons being a Scottish Separatist party.

My view on this is that voting for the SNP in a general election is a fairly safe protest vote for Scots as it's highly unlikely to affect which party becomes the UK governing party and so doesn't really incur any risks.

Are you serious? with a working Conservative majority of only 12 MPs - Labour could easily have won the last election if they d not been decimated in Scotland.

Let's do some Maths.

Current status:
Con 331
Lab 232
SNP 56

Con majority 12.

Let's imagine that Labour had completely reversed the SNP's success and won 55 of the 56 SNP seats.

Con 331
Lab 287
SNP 1

Con majority.. err..... 12.

i hate a smart ars* :oops:

If they had only been decimated they would have rejoiced as they would only have lost 10% of their Scottish seats

bompington

Surrey Commuter wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

bompington wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

That and, y'know, the third biggest party in the commons being a Scottish Separatist party.

My view on this is that voting for the SNP in a general election is a fairly safe protest vote for Scots as it's highly unlikely to affect which party becomes the UK governing party and so doesn't really incur any risks.

Are you serious? with a working Conservative majority of only 12 MPs - Labour could easily have won the last election if they d not been decimated in Scotland.

Let's do some Maths.

Current status:
Con 331
Lab 232
SNP 56

Con majority 12.

Let's imagine that Labour had completely reversed the SNP's success and won 55 of the 56 SNP seats.

Con 331
Lab 287
SNP 1

Con majority.. err..... 12.

i hate a smart ars* :oops:

If they had only been decimated they would have rejoiced as they would only have lost 10% of their Scottish seats

... who would be clubbed to death by their fellow MPs :shock:

coopster_the_1st

Rick Chasey wrote:

Hammond saying what I have been (along with many others)
https://twitter.com/michaelsavage/statu ... 3858791424

Hammond warns that whatever economic merits of a good exit deal for Europe, EU leaders worried about damaging their EU "political project".

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/ ... 7381478400

HAmmond message - don't necessarily expect the economically rational outcome from Brexit negotiation.

Yet, you and many others want to remain under the leadership of these people rather than control our own destiny :roll:

Stevo_666

Rick Chasey wrote:

Hammond saying what I have been (along with many others)
https://twitter.com/michaelsavage/statu ... 3858791424

Hammond warns that whatever economic merits of a good exit deal for Europe, EU leaders worried about damaging their EU "political project".

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/ ... 7381478400

HAmmond message - don't necessarily expect the economically rational outcome from Brexit negotiation.

So what's new.

EU leaders more concerned about 'the project' than the best interests of their citizens. And you wonder why a significant number of people are anti EU, not just in the UK.

rick_chasey

Coopster the 1st wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Hammond saying what I have been (along with many others)
https://twitter.com/michaelsavage/statu ... 3858791424

Hammond warns that whatever economic merits of a good exit deal for Europe, EU leaders worried about damaging their EU "political project".

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/ ... 7381478400

HAmmond message - don't necessarily expect the economically rational outcome from Brexit negotiation.

Yet, you and many others want to remain under the leadership of these people rather than control our own destiny :roll:

It's more a practical consideration; Britain's best chance of a decent Brexit is that everyone behaves very rationally.

An argument against Brexit was that, in the event of one, Britain would be punished because of the political implications to the EU. That's what Hammond is prepping the ground for.


It's all very well saying "well why would we want to be with them then if they behave like that", but you can only say that if the alternative is better. I'm arguing that the likely response from the EU makes it less attractive than staying. Hence it being a remain argument.

briantrumpet

Stevo 666 wrote:

EU leaders more concerned about 'the project' than the best interests of their citizens. And you wonder why a significant number of people are anti EU, not just in the UK.

You seem to be ignoring the possibility that they consider the EU project a good thing because of the interests of the citizens of the separate nations, overall, and in the long term. The two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.

wallace_and_gromit

mamba80 wrote:

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

That and, y'know, the third biggest party in the commons being a Scottish Separatist party.

My view on this is that voting for the SNP in a general election is a fairly safe protest vote for Scots as it's highly unlikely to affect which party becomes the UK governing party and so doesn't really incur any risks.

Are you serious? with a working Conservative majority of only 12 MPs - Labour could easily have won the last election if they d not been decimated in Scotland.

Eh? The Tories have 1 MP in Scotland so it doesn't affect the Tory majority whoever else the remaining 55 Scottish MPs represent. The Tories have enough MPs for an overall UK majority in England, Wales and NI.

Historically, the UK election result has only been different from the England/Wales/NI result in combination twice since WWI.

Labour's problem last time round was being routed by UKIP in England or at least losing support to UKIP in sufficient volume to let the Tories win "safe" Labour seats. And Miliband, obviously.

pblakeney

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

If/when Scotland becomes independent it will of course be free to determine its own relationship with the EU but until then it can't and its MPs and MSPs should work constructively with the UK government to help secure the best terms for its biggest export market.

That is the problem as wee Jimmy sees it. (Or is using for her means).
TM is excluding everyone outside of the Cabinet from participating.