BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

elbowloh

Any beef (or other foodstuffs) we get from outside the EU must meet our standards. Unless of course the intension is to lower those standards?

pblakeney

elbowloh said:

Any beef (or other foodstuffs) we get from outside the EU must meet our standards. Unless of course the intension is to lower those standards?

I for one would not be surprised at a lowering of standards. Especially so to get the U.S. deal over the line.

elbowloh

pblakeney said:

elbowloh said:

Any beef (or other foodstuffs) we get from outside the EU must meet our standards. Unless of course the intension is to lower those standards?

I for one would not be surprised at a lowering of standards. Especially so to get the U.S. deal over the line.

Exactly.

The Brexiters promised that this wouldn't happen however...

Jezyboy

TheBigBean said:

Jezyboy said:

rick_chasey said:

I do find it quite strange that on the one hand we have parties, MPs and decent sections of the population concerned about sustainability and climate change and then on the other we have people arguing about beef imports from literally the other side of the world.

In case beef wasn't problematic enough for climate change.

I am fairly relaxed about reducing the barriers to trade for farming (but fully admit I know little about it), but surely longer term we should be focused on improving the footprint of our consumption and globalised food, and particularly meat, is not really going to help.

Someone on reddit was pointing to a life cycle analysis showing that welsh lamb was worse than importing frozen from NZ.

Basically the food miles part can be a red herring.. meat is so awful for the environment that shipping it doesn't matter!

Personally I think you can play plenty of tunes, with the data so I'd be sceptical.

How are sheep bad for the environment? They graze land that can't be used for agriculture and are rounded up by dogs.

I assume they fart a bunch in the process.

briantrumpet

elbowloh said:

The Brexiters promised that this wouldn't happen however...

What is this word 'promised' of which you speak? Does it have a meaning?

elbowloh

Jezyboy said:

TheBigBean said:

Jezyboy said:

rick_chasey said:

I do find it quite strange that on the one hand we have parties, MPs and decent sections of the population concerned about sustainability and climate change and then on the other we have people arguing about beef imports from literally the other side of the world.

In case beef wasn't problematic enough for climate change.

I am fairly relaxed about reducing the barriers to trade for farming (but fully admit I know little about it), but surely longer term we should be focused on improving the footprint of our consumption and globalised food, and particularly meat, is not really going to help.

Someone on reddit was pointing to a life cycle analysis showing that welsh lamb was worse than importing frozen from NZ.

Basically the food miles part can be a red herring.. meat is so awful for the environment that shipping it doesn't matter!

Personally I think you can play plenty of tunes, with the data so I'd be sceptical.

How are sheep bad for the environment? They graze land that can't be used for agriculture and are rounded up by dogs.

I assume they fart a bunch in the process.

a) they're not only grazed on non-arrable land. It is also land that could be / would have been woodland and/or wild flower territory.
b) they're also not all rounded up by dogs
c) according to this article on the beeb, they are one of the most destructive species on the planet.


http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20170418-sheep-are-not-stupid-and-they-are-not-helpless-either

elbowloh

briantrumpet said:

elbowloh said:

The Brexiters promised that this wouldn't happen however...

What is this word 'promised' of which you speak? Does it have a meaning?

In the Tory dictionary it's a synonym for lie

rjsterry

TheBigBean said:

Jezyboy said:

rick_chasey said:

I do find it quite strange that on the one hand we have parties, MPs and decent sections of the population concerned about sustainability and climate change and then on the other we have people arguing about beef imports from literally the other side of the world.

In case beef wasn't problematic enough for climate change.

I am fairly relaxed about reducing the barriers to trade for farming (but fully admit I know little about it), but surely longer term we should be focused on improving the footprint of our consumption and globalised food, and particularly meat, is not really going to help.

Someone on reddit was pointing to a life cycle analysis showing that welsh lamb was worse than importing frozen from NZ.

Basically the food miles part can be a red herring.. meat is so awful for the environment that shipping it doesn't matter!

Personally I think you can play plenty of tunes, with the data so I'd be sceptical.

How are sheep bad for the environment? They graze land that can't be used for agriculture and are rounded up by dogs.

There's loads of them and they belch and fart a LOT. Methane emission is the main issue.

rick_chasey

With meat, especially beef, it is also the land cleared to produce the food they consume - lots of rainforest is chopped down to produce the soy to feed the animals.

I read something like land the size of India will be required to produce all the meat required if trends continue by 2050.

elbowloh

With sheep they also take up land grazed by wild animals such as buffalo, wildebeest, zebra, deer etc so the numbers of those animals have declined as the sheep numbers have soared.

pblakeney

Wasn't the land cleared to build ships quite a considerable time ago?
Sheep simply used the new free space.

briantrumpet

pblakeney said:

Wasn't the land cleared to build ships quite a considerable time ago?
Sheep simply used the new free space.

They are mainly a land-management solution for Dartmoor these days: to maintain its diverse flora & fauna, the grassland needs various forms of cropping by animals, and sheep do a vital job there.

rick_chasey

pblakeney said:

Wasn't the land cleared to build ships quite a considerable time ago?
Sheep simply used the new free space.

Look, I'm saying all of this, I am a meat eater, but all the food required to feed these animals is quite a lot.

If the whole world starts eating like Europeans, which is the trend (i.e. big on the meat) it's not sustainable.

After someone fairly bright and very non-judgemental explained this all to me it has made me re-think it all, and I really enjoy meat a lot.

pangolin

pblakeney said:

Wasn't the land cleared to build ships quite a considerable time ago?
Sheep simply used the new free space.

We could have grown more trees. This option is still available too.

elbowloh

pangolin said:

pblakeney said:

Wasn't the land cleared to build ships quite a considerable time ago?
Sheep simply used the new free space.

We could have grown more trees. This option is still available too.

This.

TheBigBean

I get the arguments around chopping down tress (same as the one for soy beans) and not plating new trees. I also get the argument that they are invasive and destory habits. Much like goats.

What I don't understand is the arguments around methane. The grass grows taking carbon dioxide from the atmosphere, the sheep eat the grass and convert some of it to methane, the methane is released into the atmosphere and then breaks down to carbon dioxide which plants then use as they grow. How do sheep add to this cycle? It can't be the same as removing a load of carbon dioxide from the ground and burning it which is add it the atmosphere.

pblakeney

pangolin said:

pblakeney said:

Wasn't the land cleared to build ships quite a considerable time ago?
Sheep simply used the new free space.

We could have grown more trees. This option is still available too.

Yeahbut, landowners and profit.
Sheep produced more cash than even the humans that were previously there.
I don't think we have progressed much from then as a country. Sadly.

"Tackling climate change is about "growth and jobs" not "expensive bunny hugging", Boris Johnson has said."

tailwindhome

elbowloh said:

With sheep they also take up land grazed by wild animals such as buffalo, wildebeest, zebra, deer etc so the numbers of those animals have declined as the sheep numbers have soared.

In Wales?

TheBigBean

pangolin said:

pblakeney said:

Wasn't the land cleared to build ships quite a considerable time ago?
Sheep simply used the new free space.

We could have grown more trees. This option is still available too.

I've posted regularly about the need to plant more trees, but there will still be land with no trees that goats and sheep can graze on.

Slightly odd example, but that is how the grass is cut around solar panels. Trees wouldn't do the job.

briantrumpet

This could be interesting: if, as non-EU citizens, Britons have to show proof of accommodation (and, by implication, second-home owners have to do the paperwork too for guests), this could, potentially, change the face of holidays in France for many. No more unplanned & improvised itineraries, if this turns out to be the case:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/20/uk-travellers-to-france-may-be-asked-proof-of-accommodation-as-part-of-post-brexit-changes

Declaring an interest - as far as I can tell, for myself all I'd need to do would be to prove I had a property to go to, but hosting guests could be a bureaucratic nightmare.

Dorset_Boy

And good luck with the reforestation of the exposed parts of Exmoor, Dartmoor etc, etc.

ddraver

briantrumpet said:

This could be interesting: if, as non-EU citizens, Britons have to show proof of accommodation (and, by implication, second-home owners have to do the paperwork too for guests), this could, potentially, change the face of holidays in France for many. No more unplanned & improvised itineraries, if this turns out to be the case:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/20/uk-travellers-to-france-may-be-asked-proof-of-accommodation-as-part-of-post-brexit-changes

Declaring an interest - as far as I can tell, for myself all I'd need to do would be to prove I had a property to go to, but hosting guests could be a bureaucratic nightmare.

Gonna hazard a guess and say it's unlikely to affect white people too much....

briantrumpet

ddraver said:

briantrumpet said:

This could be interesting: if, as non-EU citizens, Britons have to show proof of accommodation (and, by implication, second-home owners have to do the paperwork too for guests), this could, potentially, change the face of holidays in France for many. No more unplanned & improvised itineraries, if this turns out to be the case:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/20/uk-travellers-to-france-may-be-asked-proof-of-accommodation-as-part-of-post-brexit-changes

Declaring an interest - as far as I can tell, for myself all I'd need to do would be to prove I had a property to go to, but hosting guests could be a bureaucratic nightmare.

Gonna hazard a guess and say it's unlikely to affect white people too much....

Well, that's the way it's worked up until now, but when Brexit meets French bureaucracy, anything could happen.

TheBigBean

briantrumpet said:

This could be interesting: if, as non-EU citizens, Britons have to show proof of accommodation (and, by implication, second-home owners have to do the paperwork too for guests), this could, potentially, change the face of holidays in France for many. No more unplanned & improvised itineraries, if this turns out to be the case:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/20/uk-travellers-to-france-may-be-asked-proof-of-accommodation-as-part-of-post-brexit-changes

Declaring an interest - as far as I can tell, for myself all I'd need to do would be to prove I had a property to go to, but hosting guests could be a bureaucratic nightmare.

This is a common feature for some countries in order to get a visa. Typical work around involves booking somewhere that is refundable. Or just paying someone to provide a booking.

It's much like entry cards for countries where it asks for an address. Always just give the name of a hotel out of a guidebook. Leaving it blank won't be accepted, explaining you don't know where you will be staying won't be accepted and writing an actual address will just attract attention. Sometimes you need to make life easy for immigration officers.

I wasn't paying attention once for a Chinese visa and declared I was going to Xinjiang (this was before the recent issues). The guy at the visa processing centre asked why and pointed out it would need to go to the special applications process. So I corrected my mistake, declared Beijing and he filed it in the normal visa section. Everyone was happy including the immigration offical in Xinjiang.

rick_chasey

Ah if only everyone was as adept at navigating the quagmire of immigration bureaucracy as you are, BB.

briantrumpet

TheBigBean said:

briantrumpet said:

This could be interesting: if, as non-EU citizens, Britons have to show proof of accommodation (and, by implication, second-home owners have to do the paperwork too for guests), this could, potentially, change the face of holidays in France for many. No more unplanned & improvised itineraries, if this turns out to be the case:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/20/uk-travellers-to-france-may-be-asked-proof-of-accommodation-as-part-of-post-brexit-changes

Declaring an interest - as far as I can tell, for myself all I'd need to do would be to prove I had a property to go to, but hosting guests could be a bureaucratic nightmare.

This is a common feature for some countries in order to get a visa. Typical work around involves booking somewhere that is refundable. Or just paying someone to provide a booking.

It's much like entry cards for countries where it asks for an address. Always just give the name of a hotel out of a guidebook. Leaving it blank won't be accepted, explaining you don't know where you will be staying won't be accepted and writing an actual address will just attract attention. Sometimes you need to make life easy for immigration officers.

I wasn't paying attention once for a Chinese visa and declared I was going to Xinjiang (this was before the recent issues). The guy at the visa processing centre asked why and pointed out it would need to go to the special applications process. So I corrected my mistake, declared Beijing and he filed it in the normal visa section. Everyone was happy including the immigration offical in Xinjiang.

I'm hoping that's the case. I might also look into setting up an AirBnB listing if that could provide a workaround. But all a right PITA in comparison with the freedom we had before.

TheBigBean

rick_chasey said:

Ah if only everyone was as adept at navigating the quagmire of immigration bureaucracy as you are, BB.

I was offering advice based on experience. Like anything you are free to ignore it if you don't find it helpful.

TheBigBean

briantrumpet said:

TheBigBean said:

briantrumpet said:

This could be interesting: if, as non-EU citizens, Britons have to show proof of accommodation (and, by implication, second-home owners have to do the paperwork too for guests), this could, potentially, change the face of holidays in France for many. No more unplanned & improvised itineraries, if this turns out to be the case:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/20/uk-travellers-to-france-may-be-asked-proof-of-accommodation-as-part-of-post-brexit-changes

Declaring an interest - as far as I can tell, for myself all I'd need to do would be to prove I had a property to go to, but hosting guests could be a bureaucratic nightmare.

This is a common feature for some countries in order to get a visa. Typical work around involves booking somewhere that is refundable. Or just paying someone to provide a booking.

It's much like entry cards for countries where it asks for an address. Always just give the name of a hotel out of a guidebook. Leaving it blank won't be accepted, explaining you don't know where you will be staying won't be accepted and writing an actual address will just attract attention. Sometimes you need to make life easy for immigration officers.

I wasn't paying attention once for a Chinese visa and declared I was going to Xinjiang (this was before the recent issues). The guy at the visa processing centre asked why and pointed out it would need to go to the special applications process. So I corrected my mistake, declared Beijing and he filed it in the normal visa section. Everyone was happy including the immigration offical in Xinjiang.

I'm hoping that's the case. I might also look into setting up an AirBnB listing if that could provide a workaround. But all a right PITA in comparison with the freedom we had before.

You might find that opens up a rabbit hole of bureaucracy, but otherwise it might work.

It's obviously far more cumbersome than before, and unfortunately it is rare for reason to come into the visa process*, so I'd imagine the hassle could remain a while.

*People have been moaning about the 90 day rule for years, but the Schengen area is content to prevent long term tourists even with evidence of money.

rjsterry

pblakeney said:

Wasn't the land cleared to build ships quite a considerable time ago?
Sheep simply used the new free space.

I think we're muddling various continents here but no, most of it was cleared long before the British Navy was a thing. We were down to 50% of land area by 500BC and 15% by 1086. We're now back to 11%. Soy production for animal feed is a different issue.

pblakeney

rjsterry said:

pblakeney said:

Wasn't the land cleared to build ships quite a considerable time ago?
Sheep simply used the new free space.

I think we're muddling various continents here but no, most of it was cleared long before the British Navy was a thing. We were down to 50% of land area by 500BC and 15% by 1086. We're now back to 11%. Soy production for animal feed is a different issue.

I was referring purely to Britain and while my history may be hazy I am fairly sure most forests were felled for war supplies of one kind or another.
Curious as to the starting point to get down to 50%. Surely the planet was never 100% trees?