BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

rjsterry

kingstongraham said:

mfin said:

My favourite laugh of the pitching in the last week is Boris' Politcal Party Broadcast where he was on the wander, making coffee answering staged questions which were subsequently over-dubbed with another voice. Well, the particular laugh is the sheer gall of the Cons to have him repeatedly seen next to "20,000 more police officers" posters when that's pretty much the same number the party themselves have reduced them by. The poster might as well say "we promise to fix the complete f**k up policing problem that we ourselves caused by putting it back to where it was".

I mean, what kind of people fall for this? Do they REALLY think people are that stupid? Their running down of police has been talked about time and time and time again, and 20,000 has always been the number mentioned as the reduction under the cons.

This is just another example of how utterly trusting they are in the fact that people are stupid, and they can get stupid people to vote for them by saying stupid things.

This is what skewered Matt Hancock v Susanna Reid. The way he repeats "20,000 more police officers" even when she's saying that it's less than they cut is like Nigel Tufnell describing his amp.

I'm pretty sure Cummings has Hancock's soul in a jar in his desk drawer. I've not seen someone so obviously sell out for a long time.

Stevo_666

surrey_commuter said:

rjsterry said:

mr_goo said:

rick_chasey said:

mr_goo said:

I love the Lib Dems £10k giveaway for adult education. So well thought out.....
...if we work to whole numbers and assume every adult takes this up the cost is £35bn which I believe adds about 10% to the national debt. What a great idea.

What’s wrong with government supporting education ?

Nothing wrong at all. I myself would love to retrain for something that would take me into retirement and beyond. However I don't think that Jo Swinson and co are going to pay my mortgage and utilities as well.
It's a grand idea/gesture but like all of them it will not get off the ground.

Note. Didn't know UK debt was that much. Jeez. And Labour want to borrow hundreds of billions more.

Btw. Where does this money come from? I'm intrigued, not being versed in financial matters of the corporate/gov kind.

https://positivemoney.org/how-money-works/advanced/what-about-the-national-debt/

that is hundreds of billions more on top of the planned tens of billion more (a year) that is already in the pipeline.

I am currently walking in the shoes of somebody who thinks that debt does not matter. It is very liberating - all economic problems instantly disappear.

Its great isnt it. And amusing

As mentioned in the Labour party thread, not sure why some people are so uppity about the rich and big corporates allegedly not paying enough tax when apparently we can simply borrow more with impunity....
🙄

rjsterry

Stevo_666 said:

surrey_commuter said:

rjsterry said:

mr_goo said:

rick_chasey said:

mr_goo said:

I love the Lib Dems £10k giveaway for adult education. So well thought out.....
...if we work to whole numbers and assume every adult takes this up the cost is £35bn which I believe adds about 10% to the national debt. What a great idea.

What’s wrong with government supporting education ?

Nothing wrong at all. I myself would love to retrain for something that would take me into retirement and beyond. However I don't think that Jo Swinson and co are going to pay my mortgage and utilities as well.
It's a grand idea/gesture but like all of them it will not get off the ground.

Note. Didn't know UK debt was that much. Jeez. And Labour want to borrow hundreds of billions more.

Btw. Where does this money come from? I'm intrigued, not being versed in financial matters of the corporate/gov kind.

https://positivemoney.org/how-money-works/advanced/what-about-the-national-debt/

that is hundreds of billions more on top of the planned tens of billion more (a year) that is already in the pipeline.

I am currently walking in the shoes of somebody who thinks that debt does not matter. It is very liberating - all economic problems instantly disappear.

Its great isnt it. And amusing

As mentioned in the Labour party thread, not sure why some people are so uppity about the rich and big corporates allegedly not paying enough tax when apparently we can simply borrow more with impunity....
🙄

The Resolution Foundation joining the IFS in warning that we'll all be looking at tax rises sooner or later, whoever gets in. Labour pretending only the top 5% will pay more while the Tories pretending they can afford tax cuts.

Stevo_666

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

surrey_commuter said:

rjsterry said:

mr_goo said:

rick_chasey said:

mr_goo said:

I love the Lib Dems £10k giveaway for adult education. So well thought out.....
...if we work to whole numbers and assume every adult takes this up the cost is £35bn which I believe adds about 10% to the national debt. What a great idea.

What’s wrong with government supporting education ?

Nothing wrong at all. I myself would love to retrain for something that would take me into retirement and beyond. However I don't think that Jo Swinson and co are going to pay my mortgage and utilities as well.
It's a grand idea/gesture but like all of them it will not get off the ground.

Note. Didn't know UK debt was that much. Jeez. And Labour want to borrow hundreds of billions more.

Btw. Where does this money come from? I'm intrigued, not being versed in financial matters of the corporate/gov kind.

https://positivemoney.org/how-money-works/advanced/what-about-the-national-debt/

that is hundreds of billions more on top of the planned tens of billion more (a year) that is already in the pipeline.

I am currently walking in the shoes of somebody who thinks that debt does not matter. It is very liberating - all economic problems instantly disappear.

Its great isnt it. And amusing

As mentioned in the Labour party thread, not sure why some people are so uppity about the rich and big corporates allegedly not paying enough tax when apparently we can simply borrow more with impunity....
🙄

The Resolution Foundation joining the IFS in warning that we'll all be looking at tax rises sooner or later, whoever gets in. Labour pretending only the top 5% will pay more while the Tories pretending they can afford tax cuts.

As I asked above, why not just borrow more rather than raise taxes if you believe that we can do that with no adverse consequences?

kingstongraham

Are you referring to MMT? I can't begin to understand it.

The last few years don't exactly help with the "debt is out of control and we must reduce it at all costs" opinion. In the USA, that seems to be a Republican position held all the time they are not in office.

rjsterry

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

surrey_commuter said:

rjsterry said:

mr_goo said:

rick_chasey said:

mr_goo said:

I love the Lib Dems £10k giveaway for adult education. So well thought out.....
...if we work to whole numbers and assume every adult takes this up the cost is £35bn which I believe adds about 10% to the national debt. What a great idea.

What’s wrong with government supporting education ?

Nothing wrong at all. I myself would love to retrain for something that would take me into retirement and beyond. However I don't think that Jo Swinson and co are going to pay my mortgage and utilities as well.
It's a grand idea/gesture but like all of them it will not get off the ground.

Note. Didn't know UK debt was that much. Jeez. And Labour want to borrow hundreds of billions more.

Btw. Where does this money come from? I'm intrigued, not being versed in financial matters of the corporate/gov kind.

https://positivemoney.org/how-money-works/advanced/what-about-the-national-debt/

that is hundreds of billions more on top of the planned tens of billion more (a year) that is already in the pipeline.

I am currently walking in the shoes of somebody who thinks that debt does not matter. It is very liberating - all economic problems instantly disappear.

Its great isnt it. And amusing

As mentioned in the Labour party thread, not sure why some people are so uppity about the rich and big corporates allegedly not paying enough tax when apparently we can simply borrow more with impunity....
🙄

The Resolution Foundation joining the IFS in warning that we'll all be looking at tax rises sooner or later, whoever gets in. Labour pretending only the top 5% will pay more while the Tories pretending they can afford tax cuts.

As I asked above, why not just borrow more rather than raise taxes if you believe that we can do that with no adverse consequences?

You'd presumably accept that there is some level of public borrowing at which there aren't significant adverse consequences. Likewise I of course accept that at some point the market loses confidence and those adverse consequences kick in. So we're just arguing about where that threshold is. I'd suggest you're opposed to borrowing for ideological reasons rather than because you've looked at the numbers and determined that we are right on that threshold.

Regardless of my views, both parties with a shout of winning have confirmed they will increase borrowing to a point where independent bodies are warning that tax rises will be needed. Both are lying about that need.

surrey_commuter

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

surrey_commuter said:

rjsterry said:

mr_goo said:

rick_chasey said:

mr_goo said:

I love the Lib Dems £10k giveaway for adult education. So well thought out.....
...if we work to whole numbers and assume every adult takes this up the cost is £35bn which I believe adds about 10% to the national debt. What a great idea.

What’s wrong with government supporting education ?

Nothing wrong at all. I myself would love to retrain for something that would take me into retirement and beyond. However I don't think that Jo Swinson and co are going to pay my mortgage and utilities as well.
It's a grand idea/gesture but like all of them it will not get off the ground.

Note. Didn't know UK debt was that much. Jeez. And Labour want to borrow hundreds of billions more.

Btw. Where does this money come from? I'm intrigued, not being versed in financial matters of the corporate/gov kind.

https://positivemoney.org/how-money-works/advanced/what-about-the-national-debt/

that is hundreds of billions more on top of the planned tens of billion more (a year) that is already in the pipeline.

I am currently walking in the shoes of somebody who thinks that debt does not matter. It is very liberating - all economic problems instantly disappear.

Its great isnt it. And amusing

As mentioned in the Labour party thread, not sure why some people are so uppity about the rich and big corporates allegedly not paying enough tax when apparently we can simply borrow more with impunity....
🙄

The Resolution Foundation joining the IFS in warning that we'll all be looking at tax rises sooner or later, whoever gets in. Labour pretending only the top 5% will pay more while the Tories pretending they can afford tax cuts.

As I asked above, why not just borrow more rather than raise taxes if you believe that we can do that with no adverse consequences?

You'd presumably accept that there is some level of public borrowing at which there aren't significant adverse consequences. Likewise I of course accept that at some point the market loses confidence and those adverse consequences kick in. So we're just arguing about where that threshold is. I'd suggest you're opposed to borrowing for ideological reasons rather than because you've looked at the numbers and determined that we are right on that threshold.

Regardless of my views, both parties with a shout of winning have confirmed they will increase borrowing to a point where independent bodies are warning that tax rises will be needed. Both are lying about that need.

But what if you believe that total tax take can not be significantly increased. If it was that easy then others would already have plucked those feathers.

Surely easier to just fill the hole with borrowing, this will then get recycled and accelerated around the economy so that each £ borrowed is really worth a multiple of that in GDP.

Man on dole sits at home watching TV. Govt gives him a job digging a hole for £100 a day, he gets taxed £20 and spends the other £80 on a haircut and shave, the barber pays £32 tax and spends the other £48 on a nice bottle of wine of which £12 goes on tax/duty and the off-licence owner pays £14 tax on the rest leaving him £22 to buy some petrol of which £15 is tax/duty....

as you can see the Govt eventually gets it's money back and as the economy is bigger can borrow yet more money.

rjsterry

Dunno. Ignoring the nonsense about paying a man to dig holes - taxes for day-to-day costs; borrowing for capital projects is I think the rule both parties claim to be sticking to - I'm sure there's a point at which the cost of collecting additional receipts outweighs those additional receipts. I'm not convinced we have reached that limit. Other countries pay more but their entire public conception of tax, public spending and the relationship between the state and individuals is different.

rick_chasey

surrey_commuter said:

rjsterry said:

mr_goo said:

rick_chasey said:

mr_goo said:

I love the Lib Dems £10k giveaway for adult education. So well thought out.....
...if we work to whole numbers and assume every adult takes this up the cost is £35bn which I believe adds about 10% to the national debt. What a great idea.

What’s wrong with government supporting education ?

Nothing wrong at all. I myself would love to retrain for something that would take me into retirement and beyond. However I don't think that Jo Swinson and co are going to pay my mortgage and utilities as well.
It's a grand idea/gesture but like all of them it will not get off the ground.

Note. Didn't know UK debt was that much. Jeez. And Labour want to borrow hundreds of billions more.

Btw. Where does this money come from? I'm intrigued, not being versed in financial matters of the corporate/gov kind.

https://positivemoney.org/how-money-works/advanced/what-about-the-national-debt/

that is hundreds of billions more on top of the planned tens of billion more (a year) that is already in the pipeline.

I am currently walking in the shoes of somebody who thinks that debt does not matter. It is very liberating - all economic problems instantly disappear.

What about the current gilt rates has you worried?

surrey_commuter

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

rjsterry said:

mr_goo said:

rick_chasey said:

mr_goo said:

I love the Lib Dems £10k giveaway for adult education. So well thought out.....
...if we work to whole numbers and assume every adult takes this up the cost is £35bn which I believe adds about 10% to the national debt. What a great idea.

What’s wrong with government supporting education ?

Nothing wrong at all. I myself would love to retrain for something that would take me into retirement and beyond. However I don't think that Jo Swinson and co are going to pay my mortgage and utilities as well.
It's a grand idea/gesture but like all of them it will not get off the ground.

Note. Didn't know UK debt was that much. Jeez. And Labour want to borrow hundreds of billions more.

Btw. Where does this money come from? I'm intrigued, not being versed in financial matters of the corporate/gov kind.

https://positivemoney.org/how-money-works/advanced/what-about-the-national-debt/

that is hundreds of billions more on top of the planned tens of billion more (a year) that is already in the pipeline.

I am currently walking in the shoes of somebody who thinks that debt does not matter. It is very liberating - all economic problems instantly disappear.

What about the current gilt rates has you worried?

The fact that they are ludicrously low and yet our borrowing costs are £46m a year. Come the next recession and a return to historic gilt rates the borrowing costs could well match spending in the NHS.

But the new me does not think that any of that matters because we can borrow more to pay the interest.

pblakeney

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

rjsterry said:

mr_goo said:

rick_chasey said:

mr_goo said:

I love the Lib Dems £10k giveaway for adult education. So well thought out.....
...if we work to whole numbers and assume every adult takes this up the cost is £35bn which I believe adds about 10% to the national debt. What a great idea.

What’s wrong with government supporting education ?

Nothing wrong at all. I myself would love to retrain for something that would take me into retirement and beyond. However I don't think that Jo Swinson and co are going to pay my mortgage and utilities as well.
It's a grand idea/gesture but like all of them it will not get off the ground.

Note. Didn't know UK debt was that much. Jeez. And Labour want to borrow hundreds of billions more.

Btw. Where does this money come from? I'm intrigued, not being versed in financial matters of the corporate/gov kind.

https://positivemoney.org/how-money-works/advanced/what-about-the-national-debt/

that is hundreds of billions more on top of the planned tens of billion more (a year) that is already in the pipeline.

I am currently walking in the shoes of somebody who thinks that debt does not matter. It is very liberating - all economic problems instantly disappear.

What about the current gilt rates has you worried?

The fact that they are ludicrously low and yet our borrowing costs are £46m a year. Come the next recession and a return to historic gilt rates the borrowing costs could well match spending in the NHS.

But the new me does not think that any of that matters because we can borrow more to pay the interest.

Now you are getting with the programme! Live life on the hog and let future generations worry about it. The whole of the western world is one gigantic Ponzi scheme.

rjsterry

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

rjsterry said:

mr_goo said:

rick_chasey said:

mr_goo said:

I love the Lib Dems £10k giveaway for adult education. So well thought out.....
...if we work to whole numbers and assume every adult takes this up the cost is £35bn which I believe adds about 10% to the national debt. What a great idea.

What’s wrong with government supporting education ?

Nothing wrong at all. I myself would love to retrain for something that would take me into retirement and beyond. However I don't think that Jo Swinson and co are going to pay my mortgage and utilities as well.
It's a grand idea/gesture but like all of them it will not get off the ground.

Note. Didn't know UK debt was that much. Jeez. And Labour want to borrow hundreds of billions more.

Btw. Where does this money come from? I'm intrigued, not being versed in financial matters of the corporate/gov kind.

https://positivemoney.org/how-money-works/advanced/what-about-the-national-debt/

that is hundreds of billions more on top of the planned tens of billion more (a year) that is already in the pipeline.

I am currently walking in the shoes of somebody who thinks that debt does not matter. It is very liberating - all economic problems instantly disappear.

What about the current gilt rates has you worried?

The fact that they are ludicrously low and yet our borrowing costs are £46m a year. Come the next recession and a return to historic gilt rates the borrowing costs could well match spending in the NHS.

But the new me does not think that any of that matters because we can borrow more to pay the interest.

Come the next recession? Did you miss this https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-uk-avoids-recession-after-20858355. ? £46bn to borrow £1,800bn. 94% of government spending is not on borrowing costs.

Stevo_666

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

rjsterry said:

mr_goo said:

rick_chasey said:

mr_goo said:

I love the Lib Dems £10k giveaway for adult education. So well thought out.....
...if we work to whole numbers and assume every adult takes this up the cost is £35bn which I believe adds about 10% to the national debt. What a great idea.

What’s wrong with government supporting education ?

Nothing wrong at all. I myself would love to retrain for something that would take me into retirement and beyond. However I don't think that Jo Swinson and co are going to pay my mortgage and utilities as well.
It's a grand idea/gesture but like all of them it will not get off the ground.

Note. Didn't know UK debt was that much. Jeez. And Labour want to borrow hundreds of billions more.

Btw. Where does this money come from? I'm intrigued, not being versed in financial matters of the corporate/gov kind.

https://positivemoney.org/how-money-works/advanced/what-about-the-national-debt/

that is hundreds of billions more on top of the planned tens of billion more (a year) that is already in the pipeline.

I am currently walking in the shoes of somebody who thinks that debt does not matter. It is very liberating - all economic problems instantly disappear.

What about the current gilt rates has you worried?

The fact that they are ludicrously low and yet our borrowing costs are £46m a year. Come the next recession and a return to historic gilt rates the borrowing costs could well match spending in the NHS.

But the new me does not think that any of that matters because we can borrow more to pay the interest.

I think you mean £46 bn. And its not just a recession that could send gilt rates up. The size of the debt pile itself could do that; similarly a Labour govt could do the same just by being in power.

surrey_commuter

rjsterry said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

rjsterry said:

mr_goo said:

rick_chasey said:

mr_goo said:

I love the Lib Dems £10k giveaway for adult education. So well thought out.....
...if we work to whole numbers and assume every adult takes this up the cost is £35bn which I believe adds about 10% to the national debt. What a great idea.

What’s wrong with government supporting education ?

Nothing wrong at all. I myself would love to retrain for something that would take me into retirement and beyond. However I don't think that Jo Swinson and co are going to pay my mortgage and utilities as well.
It's a grand idea/gesture but like all of them it will not get off the ground.

Note. Didn't know UK debt was that much. Jeez. And Labour want to borrow hundreds of billions more.

Btw. Where does this money come from? I'm intrigued, not being versed in financial matters of the corporate/gov kind.

https://positivemoney.org/how-money-works/advanced/what-about-the-national-debt/

that is hundreds of billions more on top of the planned tens of billion more (a year) that is already in the pipeline.

I am currently walking in the shoes of somebody who thinks that debt does not matter. It is very liberating - all economic problems instantly disappear.

What about the current gilt rates has you worried?

The fact that they are ludicrously low and yet our borrowing costs are £46m a year. Come the next recession and a return to historic gilt rates the borrowing costs could well match spending in the NHS.

But the new me does not think that any of that matters because we can borrow more to pay the interest.

Come the next recession? Did you miss this https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-uk-avoids-recession-after-20858355. ? £46bn to borrow £1,800bn. 94% of government spending is not on borrowing costs.

I am with you, we could, and should, double it and double it again and it will still only be 24% of Govt spending

rjsterry

The new persona seems to be a bit of a d***. A question for the real Surrey Commuter: what level of borrowing would you suggest and why?

Pross

The other big issue with Labour's promised spending on infrastructure in particular is that even if it is affordable we just don't have the resources to deliver the projects. Where are the factories and workers to build wind farm components for this massive upsurge? Where are the engineers to design everything and the builders to construct it especially when European workers have probably gone home? Are they going to streamline planning so that projects get approved more quickly and easily (apparently so people aren't keen on wind farms in locations they can see)?

rick_chasey

In fairness to Labour, they intend to cost up some of the spending with increased taxes, as opposed to increasing spending, keeping taxes at the most the same and then going through with a pretty hard Brexit.

rjsterry

rick_chasey said:

In fairness to Labour, they intend to cost up some of the spending with increased taxes, as opposed to increasing spending, keeping taxes at the most the same and then going through with a pretty hard Brexit.

The "95% of people won't see any extra tax" smells good for roses, though.

thecycleclinic

It's been obvious for years that tax take has to rise above 37% of gdp but no party could say it. Labour plan to spend 43% of gdp and they will have to tax close to that. Vat, corporation tax, income tax, duties will all have to rise. If we want Scandinavian levels of spending we ha e to pay for like they do.

One of the big problems labour will face is if this level of spending is to be delivered quickly it will require very centralised control which is the exact opposite of what we need. Also labour may find there are no enough experience or civil servants to manage the delivery of all this spending. Not to mention production problems in making all the stuff they want made.

The planning process will have to be reformed for starters. Its ambitious I'll give them that.

rick_chasey

I see BoJo is experiencing first hand that South Yorkshire seats are safe labour seats.

rick_chasey

surrey_commuter said:

rjsterry said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

rjsterry said:

mr_goo said:

rick_chasey said:

mr_goo said:

I love the Lib Dems £10k giveaway for adult education. So well thought out.....
...if we work to whole numbers and assume every adult takes this up the cost is £35bn which I believe adds about 10% to the national debt. What a great idea.

What’s wrong with government supporting education ?

Nothing wrong at all. I myself would love to retrain for something that would take me into retirement and beyond. However I don't think that Jo Swinson and co are going to pay my mortgage and utilities as well.
It's a grand idea/gesture but like all of them it will not get off the ground.

Note. Didn't know UK debt was that much. Jeez. And Labour want to borrow hundreds of billions more.

Btw. Where does this money come from? I'm intrigued, not being versed in financial matters of the corporate/gov kind.

https://positivemoney.org/how-money-works/advanced/what-about-the-national-debt/

that is hundreds of billions more on top of the planned tens of billion more (a year) that is already in the pipeline.

I am currently walking in the shoes of somebody who thinks that debt does not matter. It is very liberating - all economic problems instantly disappear.

What about the current gilt rates has you worried?

The fact that they are ludicrously low and yet our borrowing costs are £46m a year. Come the next recession and a return to historic gilt rates the borrowing costs could well match spending in the NHS.

But the new me does not think that any of that matters because we can borrow more to pay the interest.

Come the next recession? Did you miss this https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-uk-avoids-recession-after-20858355. ? £46bn to borrow £1,800bn. 94% of government spending is not on borrowing costs.

I am with you, we could, and should, double it and double it again and it will still only be 24% of Govt spending

No it wouldn’t as the borrowing would be for spending. At current rates it might even reduce given how low rates are.

Meanwhile, here is the economist this week on inflation:

https://twitter.com/theeconomist/status/1194739702626242562?s=21

surrey_commuter

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

rjsterry said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

rjsterry said:

mr_goo said:

rick_chasey said:

mr_goo said:

I love the Lib Dems £10k giveaway for adult education. So well thought out.....
...if we work to whole numbers and assume every adult takes this up the cost is £35bn which I believe adds about 10% to the national debt. What a great idea.

What’s wrong with government supporting education ?

Nothing wrong at all. I myself would love to retrain for something that would take me into retirement and beyond. However I don't think that Jo Swinson and co are going to pay my mortgage and utilities as well.
It's a grand idea/gesture but like all of them it will not get off the ground.

Note. Didn't know UK debt was that much. Jeez. And Labour want to borrow hundreds of billions more.

Btw. Where does this money come from? I'm intrigued, not being versed in financial matters of the corporate/gov kind.

https://positivemoney.org/how-money-works/advanced/what-about-the-national-debt/

that is hundreds of billions more on top of the planned tens of billion more (a year) that is already in the pipeline.

I am currently walking in the shoes of somebody who thinks that debt does not matter. It is very liberating - all economic problems instantly disappear.

What about the current gilt rates has you worried?

The fact that they are ludicrously low and yet our borrowing costs are £46m a year. Come the next recession and a return to historic gilt rates the borrowing costs could well match spending in the NHS.

But the new me does not think that any of that matters because we can borrow more to pay the interest.

Come the next recession? Did you miss this https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-uk-avoids-recession-after-20858355. ? £46bn to borrow £1,800bn. 94% of government spending is not on borrowing costs.

I am with you, we could, and should, double it and double it again and it will still only be 24% of Govt spending

No it wouldn’t as the borrowing would be for spending. At current rates it might even reduce given how low rates are.

Meanwhile, here is the economist this week on inflation:

https://twitter.com/theeconomist/status/1194739702626242562?s=21

I had to read that five times but that is genius - you keep debt interest as a manageable % of Govt spending by spending more, paid for with borrowed money

surrey_commuter

rjsterry said:

The new persona seems to be a bit of a d***. A question for the real Surrey Commuter: what level of borrowing would you suggest and why?

Insulted for agreeing with you?

I must have explained my position on debt 50 times so I doubt me trying again will help. I will look for an article that agrees with my position and see if that helps. If not ask Rick as he understands my thinking.

mr_goo

pross said:

The other big issue with Labour's promised spending on infrastructure in particular is that even if it is affordable we just don't have the resources to deliver the projects. Where are the factories and workers to build wind farm components for this massive upsurge? Where are the engineers to design everything and the builders to construct it especially when European workers have probably gone home? Are they going to streamline planning so that projects get approved more quickly and easily (apparently so people aren't keen on wind farms in locations they can see)?

🤪🤪🤪

rick_chasey

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

rjsterry said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

rjsterry said:

mr_goo said:

rick_chasey said:

mr_goo said:

I love the Lib Dems £10k giveaway for adult education. So well thought out.....
...if we work to whole numbers and assume every adult takes this up the cost is £35bn which I believe adds about 10% to the national debt. What a great idea.

What’s wrong with government supporting education ?

Nothing wrong at all. I myself would love to retrain for something that would take me into retirement and beyond. However I don't think that Jo Swinson and co are going to pay my mortgage and utilities as well.
It's a grand idea/gesture but like all of them it will not get off the ground.

Note. Didn't know UK debt was that much. Jeez. And Labour want to borrow hundreds of billions more.

Btw. Where does this money come from? I'm intrigued, not being versed in financial matters of the corporate/gov kind.

https://positivemoney.org/how-money-works/advanced/what-about-the-national-debt/

that is hundreds of billions more on top of the planned tens of billion more (a year) that is already in the pipeline.

I am currently walking in the shoes of somebody who thinks that debt does not matter. It is very liberating - all economic problems instantly disappear.

What about the current gilt rates has you worried?

The fact that they are ludicrously low and yet our borrowing costs are £46m a year. Come the next recession and a return to historic gilt rates the borrowing costs could well match spending in the NHS.

But the new me does not think that any of that matters because we can borrow more to pay the interest.

Come the next recession? Did you miss this https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-uk-avoids-recession-after-20858355. ? £46bn to borrow £1,800bn. 94% of government spending is not on borrowing costs.

I am with you, we could, and should, double it and double it again and it will still only be 24% of Govt spending

No it wouldn’t as the borrowing would be for spending. At current rates it might even reduce given how low rates are.

Meanwhile, here is the economist this week on inflation:

https://twitter.com/theeconomist/status/1194739702626242562?s=21

I had to read that five times but that is genius - you keep debt interest as a manageable % of Govt spending by spending more, paid for with borrowed money

Well yes it all hinges on lower rates right?

rick_chasey

Anyway, BoJo taking a pasting in Yorkshire. Not sure his harrowed look is deliberate to look like he's taking this flooding seriously, 3 days too late, or if he is actually struggling with the pressures.

rjsterry

surrey_commuter said:

rjsterry said:

The new persona seems to be a bit of a d***. A question for the real Surrey Commuter: what level of borrowing would you suggest and why?

Insulted for agreeing with you?

I must have explained my position on debt 50 times so I doubt me trying again will help. I will look for an article that agrees with my position and see if that helps. If not ask Rick as he understands my thinking.

You just seem to think (or at least the old you seemed to think) that all debt is bad as far as I can tell, without ever clearly articulating why. Just quoting an amount of interest and saying OMG isn't this huge is a bit thin. I don't follow the idea that debt interest is wasted money. You're just paying for a service like any other.

I fully accept that governments can borrow too much; I'm just not convinced that 100% of GDP or some other arbitrary amount of interest is the threshold. You could argue that the fact that people will lend more to a specific government is an expression of confidence in that government. Equally it could just be that that government are overspending. I don't think you can tell from one simple ratio or measure, just as mortgage lenders don't just ask you to send over your last 6 payslips.

If the new SC thinks I think that there is no limit to borrowing he has misunderstood my position. Apologies if I've misunderstood you, but it's always difficult to tell if you are joking or not.

rjsterry

surrey_commuter said:

rjsterry said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

rjsterry said:

mr_goo said:

rick_chasey said:

mr_goo said:

I love the Lib Dems £10k giveaway for adult education. So well thought out.....
...if we work to whole numbers and assume every adult takes this up the cost is £35bn which I believe adds about 10% to the national debt. What a great idea.

What’s wrong with government supporting education ?

Nothing wrong at all. I myself would love to retrain for something that would take me into retirement and beyond. However I don't think that Jo Swinson and co are going to pay my mortgage and utilities as well.
It's a grand idea/gesture but like all of them it will not get off the ground.

Note. Didn't know UK debt was that much. Jeez. And Labour want to borrow hundreds of billions more.

Btw. Where does this money come from? I'm intrigued, not being versed in financial matters of the corporate/gov kind.

https://positivemoney.org/how-money-works/advanced/what-about-the-national-debt/

that is hundreds of billions more on top of the planned tens of billion more (a year) that is already in the pipeline.

I am currently walking in the shoes of somebody who thinks that debt does not matter. It is very liberating - all economic problems instantly disappear.

What about the current gilt rates has you worried?

The fact that they are ludicrously low and yet our borrowing costs are £46m a year. Come the next recession and a return to historic gilt rates the borrowing costs could well match spending in the NHS.

But the new me does not think that any of that matters because we can borrow more to pay the interest.

Come the next recession? Did you miss this https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-uk-avoids-recession-after-20858355. ? £46bn to borrow £1,800bn. 94% of government spending is not on borrowing costs.

I am with you, we could, and should, double it and double it again and it will still only be 24% of Govt spending

😪

surrey_commuter

rjsterry said:

Dunno. Ignoring the nonsense about paying a man to dig holes - taxes for day-to-day costs; borrowing for capital projects is I think the rule both parties claim to be sticking to - I'm sure there's a point at which the cost of collecting additional receipts outweighs those additional receipts. I'm not convinced we have reached that limit. Other countries pay more but their entire public conception of tax, public spending and the relationship between the state and individuals is different.

rjsterry said:

Dunno. Ignoring the nonsense about paying a man to dig holes - taxes for day-to-day costs; borrowing for capital projects is I think the rule both parties claim to be sticking to - I'm sure there's a point at which the cost of collecting additional receipts outweighs those additional receipts. I'm not convinced we have reached that limit. Other countries pay more but their entire public conception of tax, public spending and the relationship between the state and individuals is different.

rjsterry said:

Dunno. Ignoring the nonsense about paying a man to dig holes - taxes for day-to-day costs; borrowing for capital projects is I think the rule both parties claim to be sticking to - I'm sure there's a point at which the cost of collecting additional receipts outweighs those additional receipts. I'm not convinced we have reached that limit. Other countries pay more but their entire public conception of tax, public spending and the relationship between the state and individuals is different.

rjsterry said:

Dunno. Ignoring the nonsense about paying a man to dig holes - taxes for day-to-day costs; borrowing for capital projects is I think the rule both parties claim to be sticking to - I'm sure there's a point at which the cost of collecting additional receipts outweighs those additional receipts. I'm not convinced we have reached that limit. Other countries pay more but their entire public conception of tax, public spending and the relationship between the state and individuals is different.

But in a recession Keynesian economics would prescribe large infrastructure projects to boost employment. Essentially it is a scaling up of my analogy.

surrey_commuter

rjsterry said:

Dunno. Ignoring the nonsense about paying a man to dig holes - taxes for day-to-day costs; borrowing for capital projects is I think the rule both parties claim to be sticking to - I'm sure there's a point at which the cost of collecting additional receipts outweighs those additional receipts. I'm not convinced we have reached that limit. Other countries pay more but their entire public conception of tax, public spending and the relationship between the state and individuals is different.

rjsterry said:

Dunno. Ignoring the nonsense about paying a man to dig holes - taxes for day-to-day costs; borrowing for capital projects is I think the rule both parties claim to be sticking to - I'm sure there's a point at which the cost of collecting additional receipts outweighs those additional receipts. I'm not convinced we have reached that limit. Other countries pay more but their entire public conception of tax, public spending and the relationship between the state and individuals is different.

rjsterry said:

Dunno. Ignoring the nonsense about paying a man to dig holes - taxes for day-to-day costs; borrowing for capital projects is I think the rule both parties claim to be sticking to - I'm sure there's a point at which the cost of collecting additional receipts outweighs those additional receipts. I'm not convinced we have reached that limit. Other countries pay more but their entire public conception of tax, public spending and the relationship between the state and individuals is different.

rjsterry said:

Dunno. Ignoring the nonsense about paying a man to dig holes - taxes for day-to-day costs; borrowing for capital projects is I think the rule both parties claim to be sticking to - I'm sure there's a point at which the cost of collecting additional receipts outweighs those additional receipts. I'm not convinced we have reached that limit. Other countries pay more but their entire public conception of tax, public spending and the relationship between the state and individuals is different.

But in a recession Keynesian economics would prescribe large infrastructure projects to boost employment. Essentially it is a scaling up of my analogy.