BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

Jez mon

bompington wrote:

bompington wrote:

john80 wrote:

We are an economy of 60 million people. Take the humble washing machine and assume that we replace our washing machine every ten years and there are around 27.2 million households in the UK. That means that a UK manufacturer could sell to a market of 2.7 million machines per annum. Alternatively we could buy a washing machine from elsewhere in the world with money generated from some other form of enterprise within the UK. Unfortunately if this alternative enterprise is us all holding the door open for each other then we might be on the road to ruin. I think the above proposal is a pretty depressing continuation of the decline in the UK economy.

Nice exemplar of the classic "manufacturing is real jobs, anything else doesn't count" fallacy.

Poss
Puts it better than I can:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... war-hands/

Is it not a sense of nostalgia for comparatively well paid, secure jobs for people with no qualifications.

More attractive than a job down the sports direct warehouse or down the ppi call centre.

rick_chasey

https://voxeu.org/article/300-million-w ... rexit-vote

pblakeney

Rick Chasey wrote:

https://voxeu.org/article/300-million-week-output-cost-brexit-vote

A rather conveniently familiar number in the report!

pinno

Robert88 wrote:

Bridgend closure was NOTHING TO DO WITH BREXIT.

Ford says.

There's no doubt that the motor car, an invention that managed to dodge any real change for almost a century now has to face a world in which the resistance to change is no longer the dominant force.

The UK is a country ill-equipped to surf the new wave, Brexit or no Brexit. Moreover, we now have to decide whether to pander to the orange shit-gibbon defiling the White House or do deals with China regardless. Brexit will make a difference to our ability to withstand that pressure.

How dare you insult Gibbons.
[Well put by the way]

Except... why can't they make electric/hybrid engines in the same factory?

On another tack, why oh why does the damn media concentrate on the Brexit candidate in the Peterborough by election?

There are 15 candidates. Why not have a quick precis on all of the candidates such as the remain one and not then go and get an interview with Farage?

The Beeb and ITV can go f*ck themselves.

crispybug2

Exit polls predict a Brexit Party win at the Peterborough by election

pinno

crispybug2 wrote:

Exit polls predict a Brexit Party win at the Peterborough by election

Assisted by the media.

#wankers

rick_chasey

Pinno wrote:

crispybug2 wrote:

Exit polls predict a Brexit Party win at the Peterborough by election

Assisted by the media.

#wankers

Didn’t win though

pblakeney

PBlakeney wrote:

Asked before, never was answered, and now appears to have gone missing, so I'll ask again.
Since my Brexiteer father can't answer these three questions, can a no deal supporter do it for him?

1. What will we be selling that we aren't selling now?
2. Who will we be selling them to that we aren't now?
3. Why aren't we selling these things now?*

*Simply stating "EU". Is not sufficient. Full, proper and correct answers please.

Nothing? Ah well, I guess the choices are -
1. Remain.
2. A deal. Which will be worse than remaining.
3. Unicorns and cake.

Pross

Listening to Farage being interviewed by Charlie Stayt and he's looking flustered. Blaming the failure to win a by election in one of the most pro Brexit areas on the lack of time to prepare. When challenged on being a single issue party with no policies his response was basically that Brexit is all that matters and they'll make some policies up after that. Laughed when asked if he had a manifesto and said it's like a swear word to him and is just something the other parties make up that are full of lies. How can you ask people to vote for you if you don't tell them what you stand for? I guess it shows they know they'll lose votes if they do tell people about their policies.

bobmcstuff

Pinno wrote:

Robert88 wrote:

Bridgend closure was NOTHING TO DO WITH BREXIT.

Ford says.

There's no doubt that the motor car, an invention that managed to dodge any real change for almost a century now has to face a world in which the resistance to change is no longer the dominant force.

The UK is a country ill-equipped to surf the new wave, Brexit or no Brexit. Moreover, we now have to decide whether to pander to the orange shit-gibbon defiling the White House or do deals with China regardless. Brexit will make a difference to our ability to withstand that pressure.

How dare you insult Gibbons.
[Well put by the way]

Except... why can't they make electric/hybrid engines in the same factory?

Theres a few reasons -

- "Electric engines" implies they are merely electric versions of petrol engines, but it's not that simple - electric engines are just electric motors, bigger versions of what you would get on an e bike or even a drill or something, they share almost nothing with internal combustion engines. You cant even switch a production line from producing one type of internal combustion engine to another slightly different type of internal combustion engine without several months of retooling. Changing the whole factory from making internal combustion engines to making electric motors and assembling battery packs is not much different to just building a new factory.

- A lot of these UK car manufacturing sites are very old, making repurposing them even more expensive and difficult - the total cost of sorting out all the legacy stuff and building a completely new factory might be more than just building a new one somewhere else (especially if you can do it somewhere with cheap land and cheap labour).

- Even though they are described as unskilled jobs, these people do still need quite a bit of training, and they would all need to be retrained.

Additionally there was an interesting study from UBS a little while back, they found the Chevrolet Bolt has fewer moving parts and fewer components overall from a conventional car, so you might not actually need as many people in any case (most of the cost comes from the battery packs currently).

I've not been to any of the Ford sites but I have been to all of the JLR sites in the UK and a couple of other car factories in China so I hope I know a little bit about it.

dabber

Rick Chasey wrote:

Pinno wrote:

crispybug2 wrote:

Exit polls predict a Brexit Party win at the Peterborough by election

Assisted by the media.

#wankers

Didn’t win though

At least a little positive news for a change.

robert88

Dabber wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Pinno wrote:

crispybug2 wrote:

Exit polls predict a Brexit Party win at the Peterborough by election

Assisted by the media.

#wankers

Didn’t win though

At least a little positive news for a change.

Still had to see Farage on the box and not the winner.

That man is almost as ugly on the outside as he is on the inside.

rjsterry

Pross wrote:

Listening to Farage being interviewed by Charlie Stayt and he's looking flustered. Blaming the failure to win a by election in one of the most pro Brexit areas on the lack of time to prepare. When challenged on being a single issue party with no policies his response was basically that Brexit is all that matters and they'll make some policies up after that. Laughed when asked if he had a manifesto and said it's like a swear word to him and is just something the other parties make up that are full of lies. How can you ask people to vote for you if you don't tell them what you stand for? I guess it shows they know they'll lose votes if they do tell people about their policies.

Can't recall the exact quote but during the campaigning, Farage's candidate said much the same about manifestos and claimed he was not going to make promises about what he would do if elected but would make "pledges"; as if that were somehow fundamentally different, rather than just using a thesaurus.

pinno

bobmcstuff wrote:

Pinno wrote:

Robert88 wrote:

Bridgend closure was NOTHING TO DO WITH BREXIT.

Ford says.

There's no doubt that the motor car, an invention that managed to dodge any real change for almost a century now has to face a world in which the resistance to change is no longer the dominant force.

The UK is a country ill-equipped to surf the new wave, Brexit or no Brexit. Moreover, we now have to decide whether to pander to the orange shit-gibbon defiling the White House or do deals with China regardless. Brexit will make a difference to our ability to withstand that pressure.

How dare you insult Gibbons.
[Well put by the way]

Except... why can't they make electric/hybrid engines in the same factory?

Theres a few reasons -

- "Electric engines" implies they are merely electric versions of petrol engines, but it's not that simple - electric engines are just electric motors, bigger versions of what you would get on an e bike or even a drill or something, they share almost nothing with internal combustion engines. You cant even switch a production line from producing one type of internal combustion engine to another slightly different type of internal combustion engine without several months of retooling. Changing the whole factory from making internal combustion engines to making electric motors and assembling battery packs is not much different to just building a new factory.

- A lot of these UK car manufacturing sites are very old, making repurposing them even more expensive and difficult - the total cost of sorting out all the legacy stuff and building a completely new factory might be more than just building a new one somewhere else (especially if you can do it somewhere with cheap land and cheap labour).

- Even though they are described as unskilled jobs, these people do still need quite a bit of training, and they would all need to be retrained.

Additionally there was an interesting study from UBS a little while back, they found the Chevrolet Bolt has fewer moving parts and fewer components overall from a conventional car, so you might not actually need as many people in any case (most of the cost comes from the battery packs currently).

I've not been to any of the Ford sites but I have been to all of the JLR sites in the UK and a couple of other car factories in China so I hope I know a little bit about it.

I was aware of most of the above.

It's all about product/process development investment (and the lack of it) surely?
[Rover - £1.2bn spent by BMW on product/process development but it still didn't save the group]
But why? Brexit? Shifting priorities and production elsewhere can be very expensive and they would need good reason to .

bompington

Pinno wrote:

But why? Brexit? Shifting priorities and production elsewhere can be very expensive and they would need good reason to .

They have other plants in plenty of places, easy to go there. But even without that, I can't imagine it can be much harder to set up a factory for something as radically different as electric vehicles from scratch than adapt one that was set up for ICE.

But then, Brexit...

Pross

bobmcstuff wrote:

Pinno wrote:

Robert88 wrote:

Bridgend closure was NOTHING TO DO WITH BREXIT.

Ford says.

There's no doubt that the motor car, an invention that managed to dodge any real change for almost a century now has to face a world in which the resistance to change is no longer the dominant force.

The UK is a country ill-equipped to surf the new wave, Brexit or no Brexit. Moreover, we now have to decide whether to pander to the orange shit-gibbon defiling the White House or do deals with China regardless. Brexit will make a difference to our ability to withstand that pressure.

How dare you insult Gibbons.
[Well put by the way]

Except... why can't they make electric/hybrid engines in the same factory?

Theres a few reasons -

- "Electric engines" implies they are merely electric versions of petrol engines, but it's not that simple - electric engines are just electric motors, bigger versions of what you would get on an e bike or even a drill or something, they share almost nothing with internal combustion engines. You cant even switch a production line from producing one type of internal combustion engine to another slightly different type of internal combustion engine without several months of retooling. Changing the whole factory from making internal combustion engines to making electric motors and assembling battery packs is not much different to just building a new factory.

- A lot of these UK car manufacturing sites are very old, making repurposing them even more expensive and difficult - the total cost of sorting out all the legacy stuff and building a completely new factory might be more than just building a new one somewhere else (especially if you can do it somewhere with cheap land and cheap labour).

- Even though they are described as unskilled jobs, these people do still need quite a bit of training, and they would all need to be retrained.

Additionally there was an interesting study from UBS a little while back, they found the Chevrolet Bolt has fewer moving parts and fewer components overall from a conventional car, so you might not actually need as many people in any case (most of the cost comes from the battery packs currently).

I've not been to any of the Ford sites but I have been to all of the JLR sites in the UK and a couple of other car factories in China so I hope I know a little bit about it.

I would suggest that most of those wouldn't really matter if the plant was in the right place to suit the needs of a business though. You may as well re-build the plant on a site you already own rather than looking for a new site that is suitable with all the issues of purchasing and obtaining planning. Likewise, you may as well re-train the existing workforce than bring in new people that will also need training - the existing workforce will at least already understand the company ethos and ways of working - and it is unlikely you'll set up somewhere with a ready made workforce for building electric motors.

My understanding with Bridgend is that the key problem was they were building engines there then shipping to the US whereas now they'll be built in Mexico so logistically more simplistic (I assume the decision was made before Trump announced his tariff plans for Mexico!).

Incidentally, Aston Martin Lagonda are just finishing off their new factory at St Athan, not far from Bridgend, which was originally to be the base for constructing their new SUV with traditional internal combustion engines but they have announced a second phase that will make the site their base for electric production. I assume they've taken the position that it's better to have your engine manufacturing and assembly line near to each other too but that the location is suited for their business.

robert88

Pross wrote:

bobmcstuff wrote:

Pinno wrote:

Robert88 wrote:

Bridgend closure was NOTHING TO DO WITH BREXIT.

Ford says.

There's no doubt that the motor car, an invention that managed to dodge any real change for almost a century now has to face a world in which the resistance to change is no longer the dominant force.

The UK is a country ill-equipped to surf the new wave, Brexit or no Brexit. Moreover, we now have to decide whether to pander to the orange shit-gibbon defiling the White House or do deals with China regardless. Brexit will make a difference to our ability to withstand that pressure.

How dare you insult Gibbons.
[Well put by the way]

Except... why can't they make electric/hybrid engines in the same factory?

Theres a few reasons -

- "Electric engines" implies they are merely electric versions of petrol engines, but it's not that simple - electric engines are just electric motors, bigger versions of what you would get on an e bike or even a drill or something, they share almost nothing with internal combustion engines. You cant even switch a production line from producing one type of internal combustion engine to another slightly different type of internal combustion engine without several months of retooling. Changing the whole factory from making internal combustion engines to making electric motors and assembling battery packs is not much different to just building a new factory.

- A lot of these UK car manufacturing sites are very old, making repurposing them even more expensive and difficult - the total cost of sorting out all the legacy stuff and building a completely new factory might be more than just building a new one somewhere else (especially if you can do it somewhere with cheap land and cheap labour).

- Even though they are described as unskilled jobs, these people do still need quite a bit of training, and they would all need to be retrained.

Additionally there was an interesting study from UBS a little while back, they found the Chevrolet Bolt has fewer moving parts and fewer components overall from a conventional car, so you might not actually need as many people in any case (most of the cost comes from the battery packs currently).

I've not been to any of the Ford sites but I have been to all of the JLR sites in the UK and a couple of other car factories in China so I hope I know a little bit about it.

I would suggest that most of those wouldn't really matter if the plant was in the right place to suit the needs of a business though. You may as well re-build the plant on a site you already own rather than looking for a new site that is suitable with all the issues of purchasing and obtaining planning. Likewise, you may as well re-train the existing workforce than bring in new people that will also need training - the existing workforce will at least already understand the company ethos and ways of working - and it is unlikely you'll set up somewhere with a ready made workforce for building electric motors.

My understanding with Bridgend is that the key problem was they were building engines there then shipping to the US whereas now they'll be built in Mexico so logistically more simplistic (I assume the decision was made before Trump announced his tariff plans for Mexico!).

Incidentally, Aston Martin Lagonda are just finishing off their new factory at St Athan, not far from Bridgend, which was originally to be the base for constructing their new SUV with traditional internal combustion engines but they have announced a second phase that will make the site their base for electric production. I assume they've taken the position that it's better to have your engine manufacturing and assembly line near to each other too but that the location is suited for their business.

It's staggering to think how bad the timing of the referendum result was really.. From a car workers perspective. From a manufacturers view they didn't want Brexit but at least they found out where they stood a bit earlier than too late.

kingstongraham

Coopster the 1st wrote:

I see a very close vote with no side getting more than 55%. A second vote will be pushed by the remainers (entirely fair with a vote that close) but not before changes to the EU which the remainers will(and should), lead by George Osborne(?) be pushing for. The EU negotiation before a second vote would come about from the EU not wanting a groundswell of referendums in other countries, as well as keeping us in for the huge benefits we provide to the EU.

I am voting very much with my eyes wide open which is why I discussing where I view we will go beyond June 23rd based on an OUT vote.

2019, meet 2016.

FocusZing

"United in diversity", the motto of the European Union, first came into use in 2000. It signifies how Europeans have come together, in the form of the EU, to work for peace and prosperity, while at the same time being enriched by the continent's many different cultures, traditions and languages.

shortfall

https://order-order.com/2019/06/07/priv ... igh-court/

Update on Boris private prosection.

kingstongraham

Shortfall wrote:

https://order-order.com/2019/06/07/private-prosecution-boris-thrown-high-court/

Update on Boris private prosection.

I didn't know the definition: "Vexatious litigation is legal action which is brought solely to harass or subdue an adversary."

It seems there is no legal remedy if your political opponent just lies. That could be a good or bad thing.

shortfall

KingstonGraham wrote:

Shortfall wrote:

https://order-order.com/2019/06/07/private-prosecution-boris-thrown-high-court/

Update on Boris private prosection.

I didn't know the definition: "Vexatious litigation is legal action which is brought solely to harass or subdue an adversary."

It seems there is no legal remedy if your political opponent just lies. That could be a good or bad thing.

The court took 5 minutes to quash the previous judges decision. At least Marcus Ball got some nice accommodation and a few judo lessons out if it.

bobmcstuff

Pinno wrote:

bobmcstuff wrote:

Pinno wrote:

Robert88 wrote:

Bridgend closure was NOTHING TO DO WITH BREXIT.

Ford says.

There's no doubt that the motor car, an invention that managed to dodge any real change for almost a century now has to face a world in which the resistance to change is no longer the dominant force.

The UK is a country ill-equipped to surf the new wave, Brexit or no Brexit. Moreover, we now have to decide whether to pander to the orange shit-gibbon defiling the White House or do deals with China regardless. Brexit will make a difference to our ability to withstand that pressure.

How dare you insult Gibbons.
[Well put by the way]

Except... why can't they make electric/hybrid engines in the same factory?

Theres a few reasons -

- "Electric engines" implies they are merely electric versions of petrol engines, but it's not that simple - electric engines are just electric motors, bigger versions of what you would get on an e bike or even a drill or something, they share almost nothing with internal combustion engines. You cant even switch a production line from producing one type of internal combustion engine to another slightly different type of internal combustion engine without several months of retooling. Changing the whole factory from making internal combustion engines to making electric motors and assembling battery packs is not much different to just building a new factory.

- A lot of these UK car manufacturing sites are very old, making repurposing them even more expensive and difficult - the total cost of sorting out all the legacy stuff and building a completely new factory might be more than just building a new one somewhere else (especially if you can do it somewhere with cheap land and cheap labour).

- Even though they are described as unskilled jobs, these people do still need quite a bit of training, and they would all need to be retrained.

Additionally there was an interesting study from UBS a little while back, they found the Chevrolet Bolt has fewer moving parts and fewer components overall from a conventional car, so you might not actually need as many people in any case (most of the cost comes from the battery packs currently).

I've not been to any of the Ford sites but I have been to all of the JLR sites in the UK and a couple of other car factories in China so I hope I know a little bit about it.

I was aware of most of the above.

It's all about product/process development investment (and the lack of it) surely?
[Rover - £1.2bn spent by BMW on product/process development but it still didn't save the group]
But why? Brexit? Shifting priorities and production elsewhere can be very expensive and they would need good reason to .

Yeah, if the will was there it would still be doable I am sure, and the money. Probably including a load of tax breaks. Still possibly cheaper to buy up a new plot of land and build a new factory entirely than try to strip a load of old stuff out. Although according to Wiki the Bridgend plant was a purpose-built plant at the end of the 70s, so probably less of an issue than at some of these places which date back to WW2.

I have no idea what Ford's EV strategy is other than that they are cooperating with VW on it (https://www.ft.com/content/40d67c72-18c ... 50b3105d21), so can only speculate about why they don't want to keep it in the UK - presumably demand related. JLR's EVs are currently made by Magna Steyr in Austria but they want to bring this in house, they've invested a lot in EV tech/engineers and ultimately one of their other sites will probably be repurposed in this way for EV manufacture (like a lot of car factories in the UK some of them are quite under capacity).

But as you know, one of the things some people don't seem to get is that this change can't happen quickly, so it's not as simple as saying "oh we're under capacity here this month, let's make something else here instead". Like the quotes you often see to that effect in news articles about the car plants - why can't they just make something else.

rjsterry

Shortfall wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

Shortfall wrote:

https://order-order.com/2019/06/07/private-prosecution-boris-thrown-high-court/

Update on Boris private prosection.

I didn't know the definition: "Vexatious litigation is legal action which is brought solely to harass or subdue an adversary."

It seems there is no legal remedy if your political opponent just lies. That could be a good or bad thing.

The court took 5 minutes to quash the previous judges decision. At least Marcus Ball got some nice accommodation and a few judo lessons out if it.

I'd have more time for your argument if you actually said what you thought was wrong with the case rather than just bitching about expenses.

bobmcstuff

Pross wrote:

I would suggest that most of those wouldn't really matter if the plant was in the right place to suit the needs of a business though. You may as well re-build the plant on a site you already own rather than looking for a new site that is suitable with all the issues of purchasing and obtaining planning. Likewise, you may as well re-train the existing workforce than bring in new people that will also need training - the existing workforce will at least already understand the company ethos and ways of working - and it is unlikely you'll set up somewhere with a ready made workforce for building electric motors.

My understanding with Bridgend is that the key problem was they were building engines there then shipping to the US whereas now they'll be built in Mexico so logistically more simplistic (I assume the decision was made before Trump announced his tariff plans for Mexico!).

Incidentally, Aston Martin Lagonda are just finishing off their new factory at St Athan, not far from Bridgend, which was originally to be the base for constructing their new SUV with traditional internal combustion engines but they have announced a second phase that will make the site their base for electric production. I assume they've taken the position that it's better to have your engine manufacturing and assembly line near to each other too but that the location is suited for their business.

The Bridgend site is where it is because of lobbying and investment from the Welsh government apparently, so the reasons for putting it there commercially might not have been that strong (like you say, if it's all now being exported to the US it probably doesn't make much sense any more anyway).

Good for Aston then, they'll be able to pick up workers for cheap...

Ben6899

rjsterry wrote:

Shortfall wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

Shortfall wrote:

https://order-order.com/2019/06/07/private-prosecution-boris-thrown-high-court/

Update on Boris private prosection.

I didn't know the definition: "Vexatious litigation is legal action which is brought solely to harass or subdue an adversary."

It seems there is no legal remedy if your political opponent just lies. That could be a good or bad thing.

The court took 5 minutes to quash the previous judges decision. At least Marcus Ball got some nice accommodation and a few judo lessons out if it.

I'd have more time for your argument if you actually said what you thought was wrong with the case rather than just bitching about expenses.

Going after Ball's minor expenses rather than seriously damaging political lying... you'd be forgiven for thinking some people actually want Boris Johnson as the next PM. And you'd also be forgiven for being highly suspicious of that.

shortfall

rjsterry wrote:

Shortfall wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

Shortfall wrote:

https://order-order.com/2019/06/07/private-prosecution-boris-thrown-high-court/

Update on Boris private prosection.

I didn't know the definition: "Vexatious litigation is legal action which is brought solely to harass or subdue an adversary."

It seems there is no legal remedy if your political opponent just lies. That could be a good or bad thing.

The court took 5 minutes to quash the previous judges decision. At least Marcus Ball got some nice accommodation and a few judo lessons out if it.

I'd have more time for your argument if you actually said what you thought was wrong with the case rather than just bitching about expenses.

I think this has been discussed at length previously in this thread. I thought it was a politically motivated action designed to thwart Brexit. I've already stated that I don't like Boris Johnson and don't think him a fit and proper person to be PM

rjsterry

Shortfall wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Shortfall wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

Shortfall wrote:

https://order-order.com/2019/06/07/private-prosecution-boris-thrown-high-court/

Update on Boris private prosection.

I didn't know the definition: "Vexatious litigation is legal action which is brought solely to harass or subdue an adversary."

It seems there is no legal remedy if your political opponent just lies. That could be a good or bad thing.

The court took 5 minutes to quash the previous judges decision. At least Marcus Ball got some nice accommodation and a few judo lessons out if it.

I'd have more time for your argument if you actually said what you thought was wrong with the case rather than just bitching about expenses.

I think this has been discussed at length previously in this thread. I thought it was a politically motivated action designed to thwart Brexit. I've already stated that I don't like Boris Johnson and don't think him a fit and proper person to be PM

Fair enough, but why bring it up again. I agree it's a politically motivated action, but the fact that the person bringing the action spent some of his crowdfunding on living expenses (and has been quite open about it) is irrelevant to the merits of the action.

robert88

So it wasn't thrown out because Johnston's claim was ok, it was thrown out simply because politicians are allowed to lie and calling them out on it is 'vexatious'.

What other misdemeanours can't politicians be prosecuted for? What misdemeanours can they be prosecuted for?

Having hosted Trump, I guess we have to admit we don't mind lying bastards.

Stevo_666

Robert88 wrote:

So it wasn't thrown out because Johnston's claim was ok, it was thrown out simply because politicians are allowed to lie and calling them out on it is 'vexatious'.

What other misdemeanours can't politicians be prosecuted for? What misdemeanours can they be prosecuted for?

Having hosted Trump, I guess we have to admit we don't mind lying bastards.

Nothing wrong with calling politicians out for lying, however it appears that it isn't legally actionable.