BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

mamba80

Basically Rick, you are arguing against democracy, what ever your beliefs, the migration into this country is unprecedented and unwanted by a majority of the population - number one reason people want to leave EU is migration.

Regardless of any absolute financial contribution, depending how the figures are cooked, its about 25billion over 15 years, so chicken feed compared to our pensions bill or the £120b spent annually on NHS, this money hasnt been spent on additional infrastructure, do you not read about nhs in crisis or take note of the rise in traffic congestion or cost of housing?

its very sad that you think eco growth produced by migration is good, which has then led to housing booms and busts and huge personal debt, a great shame that we ve not followed the German model and actually made stuff people wanted, instead of relying on unsustainable population growth.

even if you are correct, what about the effect on other eu countries? or 3rd world countries that desparately need Doc's, Nurses and Teachers etc when we take their skilled workforce? what are they supposed to do?

rick_chasey

Hang on a minute. Why are we talking about non EU people again?

EU single market works on the basis of free movement of labour and capital. So where there is demand for labour, people move to it. Capital usually flows the other way, since it moves where costs are lower. Those Drs or whatever would be underpaid where they are because there is over supply so they move. Capital goes the other way. It's basic capitalism.

It's no different to London vs rest of the U.K. We would all object to barriers to entry and trade between London and the rest of the UK.

EU net immigration into UK isn't all that big in the grand scheme and has slowed recently too.

If you want to talk about non EU immigration go ahead but it's nothing to do with the EU.


it's not a referendum on immigration

rick_chasey

And as for arguing against democracy... You do vote for MEPs and you votes for your UK MPs who have a say over UK sovereignty and you also have a second referendum on membership.

What more do you want???

earth

Rick Chasey wrote:

Hang on a minute. Why are we talking about non EU people again?

EU single market works on the basis of free movement of labour and capital. So where there is demand for labour, people move to it.

That's not really what the free movement of labour/people is doing. People perceive prospects for a better life somewhere else so they move there whether there is demand or not because we have a free movement rule. But why do we need to rule on the free movement? There is no logical reason. If there is demand for people in a nation and that nation is aware of it then it can allow people in. The only problem is if nobody wants to go to a country with a demand. In that case free movement of people or not nobody will want to go there - you can't force them. The free movement of people benefits only those nations where people want to leave.

rick_chasey

Oh my god. Has anyone here picked up an economics text book? Christ.

So there's a lot of talk about non-UK Drs and Nurses - the UK is losing out because of that according to you?

Your company needs a skill set that is abundant in France but in shortage in the UK - he doesn't need to ask for a visa (and get rejected) your boss just advertises in France. Everyone wins. UK imports the skill, takes the economic advantage (taxes, the value of his labour, his spending etc) and the French kid gets a better pay packet. The boss saves some money not having to pay through the nose due to the shortage.


By your logic we should put up immigration borders between London and the rest of the U.K.!!!!

Just like free trade, free movement of labour increases the overal size of the pie. It's more efficient.

earth

Rick Chasey wrote:

Your company needs a skill set that is abundant in France but in shortage in the UK - he doesn't need to ask for a visa (and get rejected) your boss just advertises in France. Everyone wins. UK imports the skill, takes the economic advantage (taxes, the value of his labour, his spending etc) and the French kid gets a better pay packet. The boss saves some money not having to pay through the nose due to the shortage.

There's nothing in that argument that warrants a rule that forces the free movement of people. In the case of no free movement where you require a skill that is in short supply you still advertise in another country. The visa is the only part of your argument that has any credibility. So you inform your government that the skill in in demand so that when people with that skill apply for the visa they get it. This is how it works in most other countries, New Zealand for example, Australia, are these countries in economic turmoil due to their immigration laws? No.

It is unlikely there will ever be a shortage of people who want to come here so there is no reason for an open door policy. We can pick and choose people as and when required. Just like the boss in your argument. Does he give a job to anyone who walks in the door? No. A business picks and chooses people as and when required. If they had to make a place for everyone who came in the door demanding a salary they would be bankrupt. So if your nation allows anyone in regardless of whether they are required or not but your businesses do not then you will have unemployment.

mamba80

Rick Chasey wrote:

Hang on a minute. Why are we talking about non EU people again?

EU single market works on the basis of free movement of labour and capital. So where there is demand for labour, people move to it. Capital usually flows the other way, since it moves where costs are lower. Those Drs or whatever would be underpaid where they are because there is over supply so they move. Capital goes the other way. It's basic capitalism.

It's no different to London vs rest of the U.K. We would all object to barriers to entry and trade between London and the rest of the UK.

EU net immigration into UK isn't all that big in the grand scheme and has slowed recently too.

If you want to talk about non EU immigration go ahead but it's nothing to do with the EU.


it's not a referendum on immigration

you are arguing for the free movement of people arent you?

i ve explained to you about the damage this is doing to EU countries and non EU countries, UK has recently relaxed immigration rules on non eu nurses, yet cuts financial support for uk training for nurses.... because its cheaper and who gives a xxxx that the Philippines cant run a health service, so long as we are ok or Portugal faces long term decline because we need a few more care workers or drivers.

net eu migration is about 250,000 per year (so not too big a deal....... really?) and the UK has seen the greatest growth in population in the decade up 2011 since the 19thC and most of that has come from the EU.

yet how many new schools, roads, hospitals, railways? what i see see is cuts in all these services, bigger classes, more congestion, longer waiting lists, been a success hasnt it?

i m not sure people are not linking the in/out vote with immigration.
http://whatukthinks.org/eu/immigration- ... eferendum/

cycleclinic

All i know is the pound is weak at the moment. One of the reason (i know it is jot the only one) is the uncertainity around wheather the u,k will remain part of the EU or not. Just paid for a tyre order from an EU supplier (no u,k distributor) and it cost more than it should. Paid for a couple of orders in dollars recently and that rate was rubbish too.

So all this nonsence is hurting my bottom line. It hurts other business too. If the u.k votes to pull out the the pound will fall and prices will go up for various goods or margins of business will be hit (more likely at least in the short term) and this will have a knock effect on job creation, growth and therefore tax revenue.

So as i run a business that imports and exports i think this vote is a stupid idea, even more dangerous that it seems too close for comfort. Well close enough that it wont shut up the eurospectics just embolden them like it did the scottish nationialists (i think the scottish referendum was needed though but was badly cocked up by the no side).

Besides even the no voters want the u.k to stay part of the single market after we leave which means free movement of people (norway and switzerland have to accept this) and pay for it too with membership fees some think we can have access to single market without free movement .of people and the fees but those people fail tomunderstand that the single market means free movement of people. The single market is way more than a free trade deal. Some cite we could just have a free trade deal instead but freetrade will just be for some goods it wont cover services which are a huge part of the u.k ecomony.also free trade deals takes years to negociate and britian could get one but it wont happen overnight either. The trade deals non e.u countries have with the e.u cover certain classes of good not service so this kind of relationship would not service britain well. Also when e.u standards for goods and service change british exporters will have to swallow the pill.

Another point trade deals define standards for goods so that exporters have to co,py to sell into that country so those who think u.k business would be freed from red tape, well words fail me. The red tape business face comes from our own goverment. If an e.u source of this is removed i can assure everyone our own government will fill the gap.

Being part of the e.u means britian gets lobby on part of those exporters as what what the standards should look like. It is britain that pushed hard for the single market to include services we had to because it a big part of our ecomic outpit. Britain does have a positive influence on the e.u. much of the e.u health and safety law much derided actually has alot of british influence. Britian influences the e.u alot.

By 2030 the u.k will be the largest ecomony in the e.u if we stay part of it. Guess what our influence will grow and we could be running the show like germany does now. Why is britian gorwing so quickly simple really. Britiain is place people want to come and live an work. That means we have got something right this is a good thing and some in this country want to stop that. With e.u migration britians ecomony would not be gorwing as fast or it would not be growing at all. We would therefore be poorer and as our popularion ages the costs accosiated with that would start to cause real trouble. Trying to do as some would sugeest select migrants does not work as britain needs a range of kigrant from the skilled to the unskilled. Quite frankly and bluntly those who think unskilled or low skilled labour can be filled by the u.k unemployed are deluding themselves. They are un or under employed for a reason. Either they are in the wrong place and are unable or unwilling to move or they are simply not employable or not easy to employ (due to a variety of of reasons).

I run a business and it has changed my perspective on many things. This referedum will not endager my business but what it will do is potentially squeeze my margins for a time and if we pull out in the long run may end increasing costs of goods or change jack all because we stay part of the single market and face the prospect of scotland breaking away from the u.k ( i dont know how likely that is but do we really want to risk it). hell if the u.k pulls out and scotland breaks away and applies to join the e.u i might move the shop to scotland. I doubt i would be the only business thinking about that.

So bluntly this referendum is a daft idea add to that it is starting to cost me. Alot of the arguements i hear from the no side sound like wishful thinking. They seem to think many of britians problems can be solved by the coming out of the e.u. our problems are home grown they are not imported. Blamming the foreigner is one way of sticking our head in the sand and those who think britain out of the e.u will some how be realeased to trade and become really rich really are deluding themselves. Being part of the e.u in know way restricts are ecomonic growth at least i cant see any way it does.

Part of the reason i think is driving the anti e.u vote is the rapid rate of social change caused by immgration, technogical change and an aging population. The problem is if the u.k pulls out of the e.u the rate of chnage wont slow it wont increase either it will take a different direction bit the one thing we wont be ablw to do is steer the rudder as it where. The one thing everyone must realise individuals and goverments have little to no control over social changes or the direction it takes. What governments can do is mange the change by giving there citizens the best chance of apating and taking advantage of the oppertunities change brings. The sooner we accept this premise the sooner britain can feel more at ease at being part of the e.u.

pblakeney

After reading all this, I have come to a conclusion.
I shall vote out. Mainly because although it may be negative for me, it will wee wee off a lot of people who I have no respect for even more.
The World is a basket case and cancer is a much higher concern than international trading.
Selfish? You bet. But consider your own position before judging.

mamba80

thecycleclinic wrote:

So bluntly this referendum is a daft idea add to that it is starting to cost me. Alot of the arguements i hear from the no side sound like wishful thinking. They seem to think many of britians problems can be solved by the coming out of the e.u. our problems are home grown they are not imported. Blamming the foreigner is one way of sticking our head in the sand and those who think britain out of the e.u will some how be realeased to trade and become really rich really are deluding themselves. Being part of the e.u in know way restricts are ecomonic growth at least i cant see any way it does.

Spot on Malcom, a good mate of mine, a CEO of a very successful company exporting extensively in europe, reckons leaving will kill his company and put it back to when he started there as a YTS lad many years ago, indeed they are cutting back on investment right now, so as someone said "your parties internal problems come ahead of what is best for the country......"

As for red tape, He finds aside from the French, the UK has the most red tape of any eu country, red tape is down to individual countries, the rules direct from EU are very limited and in many cases make doing business easier.

Hope you get well very soon.

cycleclinic

So pblakely because you dont like the world you willing to vote just to piss of others well that is at least honest but you might as well not vote and go and live as a hermit on top of a mountain and leave to world to those who want to get on with it.

You cant be that misreible and if you are go on a holiday and come back a bit more cheery. Life is to short to feel like that,

Lookyhere

Thousands of migrants are entering the EU every week and Cameron and Tories take up EU time with their stupid selfish demands
the UK was a failure when it was nt in EU and it ll be a failure when we leave, all we can hope is that the tories destroy themselves with in-fighting and the UK public have the sense to vote IN and we can start to work toward solving EU and Syrian crisis together.

pblakeney

thecycleclinic wrote:

So pblakely because you dont like the world you willing to vote just to wee-wee of others well that is at least honest but you might as well not vote and go and live as a hermit on top of a mountain and leave to world to those who want to get on with it.

You cant be that misreible and if you are go on a holiday and come back a bit more cheery. Life is to short to feel like that,

Good idea!
Who said I was miserable?

peterbob

Mass immigration is like pyramid selling. It relies on ever increasing numbers for the groth of the economy. It works short term until those people get old and require pensions and old age health care. The size of the economy (pie as some say) can increase while people are getting poorer. It seems to be those with the more fortunate lives tend to support it most, plain don't see the people it displaces or loose out. To rick, those arrivals who don't need educating are driving the downward spiral of education and workready emloyees, there is no economic need to help them. Toss them into the long grass and complain you just can't get the skills these days.

Stevo_666

PBlakeney wrote:

After reading all this, I have come to a conclusion.
I shall vote out. Mainly because although it may be negative for me, it will wee wee off a lot of people who I have no respect for even more.
The World is a basket case and cancer is a much higher concern than international trading.
Selfish? You bet. But consider your own position before judging.

I don't have an issue with that per se, each to their own. Out of interest, what groups of people are you trying to wee wee off?

Stevo_666

Lookyhere wrote:

Thousands of migrants are entering the EU every week and Cameron and Tories take up EU time with their stupid selfish demands
the UK was a failure when it was nt in EU and it ll be a failure when we leave, all we can hope is that the tories destroy themselves with in-fighting and the UK public have the sense to vote IN and we can start to work toward solving EU and Syrian crisis together.

Although unfortunately now the less of those demands the EU agrees to, the more likely it will be that the public vote to leave. You had better hope that Cameron succeeds.

pblakeney

Stevo 666 wrote:

I don't have an issue with that per se, each to their own. Out of interest, what groups of people are you trying to wee wee off?

The ones pushing the agenda so they can get personal riches.
There seems to be a growing attitude that happiness comes from money.

Stevo_666

PBlakeney wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

I don't have an issue with that per se, each to their own. Out of interest, what groups of people are you trying to wee wee off?

The ones pushing the agenda so they can get personal riches.
There seems to be a growing attitude that happiness comes from money.

I would guess there are people in both camps who have that agenda. So you are guaranteed to wee wee off someone.

peterbob

I'm not going to stop eating roast beef and Yorkshire pudding.

pblakeney

Stevo 666 wrote:

I would guess there are people in both camps who have that agenda. So you are guaranteed to wee wee off someone.

Things will become clearer as the propaganda wars develop, this is true.

earth

Cycle Clinic I am still digesting your lengthy and considered post. One discrepancy - you mention the single market

thecycleclinic wrote:

The single market is way more than a free trade deal. Some cite we could just have a free trade deal instead but freetrade will just be for some goods it wont cover services which are a huge part of the u.k ecomony

The EU is only free trade for goods not services and as you point out services are a huge part of the UK economy. If only we could benefit from the the free trade of them but we can't even if we are in the EU.

mamba80 wrote:

As for red tape, He finds aside from the French, the UK has the most red tape of any eu country, red tape is down to individual countries, the rules direct from EU are very limited and in many cases make doing business easier.

Have you ever considered that it may be because we follow the laws handed down by the EU while others ignore them?

Frank the tank

I'm afraid to say, you can forget about all the economics and a myriad of other issues about whether to stay in or leave the EU. It will be about one thing IMMIGRATION, the likes of the daily mail and the sun and the right wing scaremongers will make sure of it.
Which will be sad really.

BelgianBeerGeek

I agree with Frank. The smarter end of this agenda will be"who runs Britain?", the dirtier end will be "bloody foreigners". Both are equally xenophobic standpoints, and are not that far apart, although the Tory hard liners will always deny they hate Johnny Foreigner.
But, sadly, I think this is how my fellow countrymen will vote.

mamba80

earth wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

As for red tape, He finds aside from the French, the UK has the most red tape of any eu country, red tape is down to individual countries, the rules direct from EU are very limited and in many cases make doing business easier.

Have you ever considered that it may be because we follow the laws handed down by the EU while others ignore them?

Well, you dont know that do you? that is just something the anti's throw up (without any evidence)

But it wasnt me saying it and my friend is smart enough to know what rules come the EU and those that originate in UK and its UK ones that cause him the biggest headaches, in other words, doing business in eu is often easier than doing the same business in UK.

But as Frank says, the vote will be decided on immigration and really, giving the vote to some of the morons in this country @ a GE is bad enough but for something that could make or break our country for decades to come? what was DC thinking off? oh yes a GE victory and ukip, incredibly short sighted, especially as he is pro europe!

cycleclinic

The free market is for services too but not all are included yet. Digital goods thpugh are now in. So no discrepancy.
http://europa.eu/pol/singl/index_en.htm ... gle_market

It is a falacy that other countries dont follow eu law. Those that don't also don't follow there own laws. Italy anyone? Most law come from national goverments still (over 80%) but counting it exactly does depend no how you count an eu law so in reality a range of rather meaningless numbers are correct to certain extent. Tax law is set by national goveremnts. Our governemnt is very capable of and does create alot of tax law. Got another letter from my account his week regarding new rules for reporting of income. It was inpeneratble at first glance. The eu has nothing to do with this as far as i am aware. As i have tried to point out our goverment creates the "red tape" that "strangles" businesses.

I am surprised at how little red tape i actually havd to comply with. Most of what i have to comply with comes from registering the company with companies house and passing the threshold for vat a long while back.

The e.u does try to set common standards though for workplaces to aid the free movement of people which in turn increases trade (studies have been done on this). It also sets common standards for goods and some servoce so they can be freely traded. If for example each country had different safety standards for cars for example each manufacturer would have to make different versions of the same model for each market. Currently that is the case for the u.k as we insist on the driving other side of the road but the airbags used in a u.k car are the same as one's in germany. Without these common standards it would drive up prices. Also the e.u have taken on mobile phone opperators to get roaming charges down a bit. More work to do there but national goverments would find that hard by themselves. This also proves the single market is not just for goods.
This is what the eu does so well. That is what i mean when i say it is way more than a free trade area.

The e.u like all organisations and there are few bigger has it problems and some are huge but without britain would be a very different country today and i am not sure it would be such a nice place to live, it certainly would be a more expensive olace to live and it is procey enough already.

cycleclinic

I cant wait till we move past this debate in june. The only pronlem we will be here again in other 20 years maybe not even that if it is close.

This one problems that dogs poltics and if we really want to improve governance in this country it does not come from ensuring the supremcy of u.k law ove e.u law (we are very capable of making bad laws and do it all the time) or pulling out of the e.u. if we want to improve the way we are governed we simply have to reform how politicians are elected, how power is devolved and the process of poltiics in this country. Our countries ills are home grown. Ever why scotland nearly broke away? It is jot the e.u, it how this country is governed, in scotland it manifests as an indpendence movement and in england as anti e,u sentiment. Somehow no one connect the bleedin dots.

northcliff66

thecycleclinic wrote:

I cant wait till we move oast this debate in june. The only pronlem we will be here again in other 20 years maybe not even that if it is close.

This one problems that doggs poltics and if we really want to improve governance in this country it does not come from ensuring the supremcy of u.k law ove e.u law (we are very capable of making bad laws and do it all the time) or pullkng out of the e.u. if we want to improve the way we are governed we simply have to reform how politicians are elected, how power is devolved and the process of poltiics in this country. Our countries ills are home grown. Ever why scotland nearly broke away it is jot the e.u it how this cojntry is governed, in scotland it manifests as an kndpendence movement ans in england as anti e,u sentiment. Somehow no one connect the bleedin dots.

I agree with so much of what you say that I am going to start a Kickstarter campaign to buy you a spellchecker.

joelsim

I agree that unfortunately everything will boil down to immigration and bloody foreigners.

For me, I'll be voting to stay in, I'd much rather forge stronger links with Europe and move away from an increasingly disturbing USA.

DeVlaeminck

Frank the tank wrote:

I'm afraid to say, you can forget about all the economics and a myriad of other issues about whether to stay in or leave the EU. It will be about one thing IMMIGRATION, the likes of the daily mail and the sun and the right wing scaremongers will make sure of it.
Which will be sad really.

I really don't think that is going to be the case. For a start I am pretty sure the vote will be to stay in - and the main reason will be that there will be a great deal of scaremongering about the economic uncertainties of coming out.

Sadly some people view anyone who would come out of the EU as right wing even though the likes of Tony Benn have opposed our membership and at one time Labour was the more eurosceptic of the two main parties.

ballysmate

I find it hard to credit the stance of some people on here who bemoan the fact that we are having a vote at all. They are invariably from the IN side of the argument. I suppose they are just feared that the result may not go their way. But that is no position to take if you wish to live in a democracy.
It may well come to pass that immigration will be a prime driver. But parties from both left and right have shied away from a proper debate on immigration, treating the electorate with contempt, (Brown and that bigoted woman for example) that chickens may come home to roost.
Immigration is an emotive subject and sometimes even otherwise rational people have trouble differentiating between EU and external immigration, much to Rick's chagrin.