immigrant deaths the med

davmaggs

Australia has geography on its side.

By being ruthless they appear to have virtually ended boat trips so I presume it inspired the EU politicians to stop the rescuing of people in the Med last year, but it works for Australia because they can keep the people picked up thousands of miles away and have a government (PNG) that will house the migrants for a price. I presume that word got out and the traffickers lost their market.

The Med however is small and we don't have a country that will house those picked up. Libya used to take money to stop the boats.

davmaggs

Mr Goo wrote:

If what I hear on the news comes to pass and that all EU member states will have to take a share of these wretched souls, it will be really interesting is to see the local population reactions of the new EU countries, ie; Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Poland, Czech Rep, Slovenia, Slovakia etc.

Another few hundred arrived in Italy today. That as a one off can be absorbed within europe. But not on a daily basis. Europe is undergoing an extended period of austerity in order to balance the books. This unplanned and unwelcome deluge of refugees/migrants will crash many resources of the EU that are already under incredible strain. It will propagate a rise in nationalism that could mirror that seen in 1930s Europe.

Under the terms of free movement though, I assume that they'd be free to move to the UK and other richer areas once they had papers. I can't see how a Ghanian economic migrant would stay in Slovakia if many Slovakians aren't. To a certain extent Greece and Italy ignored the migration in the past because the people were just transiting through.

Pperhaps someone with more legal knowledge can jump in.

rick_chasey

If people are desperate enough to pay £1000 odd to go on a boat, risk (and it's a real risk) death for them and their family, live in horrible cramp conditions (like being locked in the hull of a ship with 700 other people) to make their way over to a country where they will be considered 'illegal', no level of extra threat will deter them, since that would be enough to put off anyone but the most desperate.

1,700 odd people have died. That's an enormous amount.

People fleeing need help to find ways to be safe. It's a bit like illegal drugs. People are going to do it anyway, but make it illegal and criminals take over the running of it. This is the result.

UN guy has it right: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/a ... five-years

davmaggs

Rick Chasey wrote:

If people are desperate enough to pay £1000 odd to go on a boat, risk (and it's a real risk) death for them and their family, live in horrible cramp conditions (like being locked in the hull of a ship with 700 other people) to make their way over to a country where they will be considered 'illegal', no level of extra threat will deter them, since that would be enough to put off anyone but the most desperate.

1,700 odd people have died. That's an enormous amount.

People fleeing need help to find ways to be safe. It's a bit like illegal drugs. People are going to do it anyway, but make it illegal and criminals take over the running of it. This is the result.

UN guy has it right: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/a ... five-years

That's back to assuming that everyone on the boats is from Syria, and they aren't. I think 30% of Jordan's population is Syrian, and it is causing mayhem in Lebanon so those countries are doing a vast amount and there's an argument about helping of course.

However the west taking Syrians doesn't stop the boats, it just frees up space for the many other nationalities who want to risk it.

dabber

And then the UN guy's 1 Million becomes 2 million, then 3 million .....

BelgianBeerGeek

Thinking Allowed on R4 at 4 pm has a piece on this from their ethnography awards. The previews have been very interesting.

As Rick says, people paying lots of cash to risk death to get to Italy is probably a symptom of the situation. There probably were easier ways to get here but tighter controls have pushed people to desperate measures. That's how much they want to get here.
So what's to be done? Spend more money on border controls, that should do it...

veronese68

davmaggs wrote:

To a certain extent Greece and Italy ignored the migration in the past because the people were just transiting through.

Don't know about Greece but that doesn't seem to be the case in Italy. It's been an issue of much concern in Italy for a few years, just because we don't hear about it over here doesn't mean it's not a problem over there.

Frank the tank

Veronese68 wrote:

VTech wrote:

What happened was awful but the fact is that people are escaping rather than looking for a better life like many european settlers. These people need help but instead europe waits for them to cross a sea knowing many are dying daily.

I don't know about the accuracy or otherwise of the press reports but I have to agree with this. These people are desperate and are in need of help.
Apparently Katie Hopkins wrote in the Sun that these migrants were cockroaches and we should be using gunships to stop them coming to Europe. I know it's her job to be controversial but I don't know what to say about that. What a truly vile individual to even think that.

No surprise really.

A vile opinion from a vile woman working for a vile newspaper owned by a vile man.

As for the migrants, desperate people trying to get away from an awful situation driven into the hands of despicable people.

I'm so lucky to live in the UK.

finchy

davmaggs wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

If what I hear on the news comes to pass and that all EU member states will have to take a share of these wretched souls, it will be really interesting is to see the local population reactions of the new EU countries, ie; Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Poland, Czech Rep, Slovenia, Slovakia etc.

Another few hundred arrived in Italy today. That as a one off can be absorbed within europe. But not on a daily basis. Europe is undergoing an extended period of austerity in order to balance the books. This unplanned and unwelcome deluge of refugees/migrants will crash many resources of the EU that are already under incredible strain. It will propagate a rise in nationalism that could mirror that seen in 1930s Europe.

Under the terms of free movement though, I assume that they'd be free to move to the UK and other richer areas once they had papers. I can't see how a Ghanian economic migrant would stay in Slovakia if many Slovakians aren't. To a certain extent Greece and Italy ignored the migration in the past because the people were just transiting through.

Pperhaps someone with more legal knowledge can jump in.

Slovakia would be a massive step up from just about any African country, although the language might be a bit of a problem. Slovakia took in thousands of Vietnamese refugees and they all stayed.

Pross

As UK voters we can't pretend we have no part in this. The elected UK government's foreign policy together with that of most of the EU and US has led to the instability in North Africa.

I may have been using BR too long, I'm turning into some sort of right on liberal! :shock:

RideOnTime

Pross wrote:

As UK voters we can't pretend we have no part in this. The elected UK government's foreign policy together with that of most of the EU and US has led to the instability in North Africa.

I may have been using BR too long, I'm turning into some sort of right on liberal! :shock:

Right on liberal. That's Cameron humping Clegg then.


Still seeking that the 'in' goes in the title, please Vtech, please, sort it.

pliptrot

There are some ugly views being expressed here, and elsewhere. This is a humanitarian crisis and the discussion about costs and ideologies is cruel and demeaning. 75 years ago Farage and his ilk - and many here- would have argued that the cost of liberating the European jews was too much, so to hell with them. Any consideration other than how to save these poor, miserable people- risking everything to escape horrors we can't imagine- is disgusting.

peat

I take it you'll happily offer up your spare room then?

VTech

pliptrot wrote:

There are some ugly views being expressed here, and elsewhere. This is a humanitarian crisis and the discussion about costs and ideologies is cruel and demeaning. 75 years ago Farage and his ilk - and many here- would have argued that the cost of liberating the European jews was too much, so to hell with them. Any consideration other than how to save these poor, miserable people- risking everything to escape horrors we can't imagine- is disgusting.

I don't think anyone is saying don't help them, but there is good sense in helping yourself first.
When you go on a cruise, the warning you get about life jackets is to always fit your own before helping anyone else because you can't help people effectively if your struggling yourself.
This is life in general, you can't support your family if your having personal issues like drugs, financial worries etc and the same with housing migrants.
resources are running out, we are an island and as had been said, if we let in 1m people it wouldn't stop the problem because there are more people in need of help than we have room.
The issue is to assist in the problem within their own country. This is made difficult because those that keep calm are attacked by others and war is the outcome.
The problem with humanity is money is paramount to so many people in power and there is no better way to make money than in wartime.

ballysmate

Dabber wrote:

And then the UN guy's 1 Million becomes 2 million, then 3 million .....

He is deluded if he thinks that would be the end of the problem. Migrants would keep rolling up.Europe is not and should not be open house.
It is not just N Africa that has a shifting population. People are on the move all over the continent. South Africa is experiencing a backlash against immigrants, resulting in the army being deployed.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/a ... el-sithole

http://www.nyasatimes.com/2015/04/22/16 ... in-malawi/

mr_goo

China has been busy over the last couple of decades in their under the radar colonisation of Africa. The rest of the world is in hock to them to the tune of $trillions. How about every time a few hundred immigrants descend onto European soil, that they are immediately put onto a Jumbo Jet, flown to Beijing Intl Airport and left outside the arrivals terminal.
Europe will go bust if this influx continues. Europe cannot continue to be the only humanitarian area on the planet. Others countries and regions need to help.

davmaggs

pliptrot wrote:

There are some ugly views being expressed here, and elsewhere. This is a humanitarian crisis and the discussion about costs and ideologies is cruel and demeaning. 75 years ago Farage and his ilk - and many here- would have argued that the cost of liberating the European jews was too much, so to hell with them. Any consideration other than how to save these poor, miserable people- risking everything to escape horrors we can't imagine- is disgusting.

What is your solution for this specific problem then?

VTech

davmaggs wrote:

pliptrot wrote:

There are some ugly views being expressed here, and elsewhere. This is a humanitarian crisis and the discussion about costs and ideologies is cruel and demeaning. 75 years ago Farage and his ilk - and many here- would have argued that the cost of liberating the European jews was too much, so to hell with them. Any consideration other than how to save these poor, miserable people- risking everything to escape horrors we can't imagine- is disgusting.

What is your solution for this specific problem then?

The solution is to punish last brits who soak up the assets of the british taxpayers.
People come here for a reason, the free state mixed with free healthcare and free benefits is like candy to a fat kid.

We need to educate and then punish people who won't work, I don't think there are many people who really can't work due to ill health, I would be surprised if it were as much as 2% of those claiming to be unfit.
Just like those who claim there are no jobs but the reality is that they don't want the jobs on offer or just don't want to work anyway.

If a soldier who has had both legs blown off defending his country can get a job and people like my mom who will work with terminal cancer and in huge pain then there is no excuse for these lazy sods who need a good belt round the head to wake them up from the life they "think" they are owed.

This will fill the positions and leave less reason for people to come here and do the jobs we simply don't do.

This isn't the full fix but its a start.

pliptrot

davmaggs wrote:

What is your solution for this specific problem then?

To spend the tiniest bit of money and immediately stop people dying horribly. We spend rather a lot on a military naval force and this is something they could be useful at. After that, a little education at home for the hysterical simpletons who use every opportunity to bang on about immigration, welfare scroungers, and all the other churlish nonsense that spews forth whenever some vaguely relevant thought stirs in their addled brains. We are a rich, well resourced nation with the very real ability to make the world a better place. It is evidently fashionable to hate rather than help.

davmaggs

pliptrot wrote:

davmaggs wrote:

What is your solution for this specific problem then?

To spend the tiniest bit of money and immediately stop people dying horribly. We spend rather a lot on a military naval force and this is something they could be useful at. After that, a little education at home for the hysterical simpletons who use every opportunity to bang on about immigration, welfare scroungers, and all the other churlish nonsense that spews forth whenever some vaguely relevant thought stirs in their addled brains. We are a rich, well resourced nation with the very real ability to make the world a better place. It is evidently fashionable to hate rather than help.

Spend the money on what?

You are being really vague. People are in the boats now as we exchange messages, and there are thousands more waiting their turn. Behind them are thousands more making their way to north Africa.

So, what exactly would you do now?

davmaggs

VTech wrote:

The solution is to punish last brits who soak up the assets of the british taxpayers.
People come here for a reason, the free state mixed with free healthcare and free benefits is like candy to a fat kid.

We need to educate and then punish people who won't work, I don't think there are many people who really can't work due to ill health, I would be surprised if it were as much as 2% of those claiming to be unfit.
Just like those who claim there are no jobs but the reality is that they don't want the jobs on offer or just don't want to work anyway.

If a soldier who has had both legs blown off defending his country can get a job and people like my mom who will work with terminal cancer and in huge pain then there is no excuse for these lazy sods who need a good belt round the head to wake them up from the life they "think" they are owed.

This will fill the positions and leave less reason for people to come here and do the jobs we simply don't do.

This isn't the full fix but its a start.

What's that got to do with the topic at hand?

Millions would come to Britain if there was zero welfare state. It's one of the richest countries on earth and provides some of the greatest opportunities to earn a living and its peaceful and well organised.

Cancelling the welfare state tomorrow wouldn't stop a single boat trip.

mr_goo

pliptrot wrote:

davmaggs wrote:

What is your solution for this specific problem then?

To spend the tiniest bit of money and immediately stop people dying horribly. We spend rather a lot on a military naval force and this is something they could be useful at. After that, a little education at home for the hysterical simpletons who use every opportunity to bang on about immigration, welfare scroungers, and all the other churlish nonsense that spews forth whenever some vaguely relevant thought stirs in their addled brains. We are a rich, well resourced nation with the very real ability to make the world a better place. It is evidently fashionable to hate rather than help.

If you are referring to the Royal Navy being a force. Then you are clearly mistaken. The Royal Navy is not even a shadow of its former glory and might.

BelgianBeerGeek

True. However, the RN do spend a lot of time training to deal with humanitarian crises.

Bobbinogs

Reading this thread is a bit like listening to the various politicians in a way. Everyone agrees that the tragedy of whole families of migrants drowning thing is dreadful... but no one can come up with a viable solution.

Take 1,000 and put them in any EU country...another 1,000 will rush to get into another boat...and another...and another. Each boat load makes someone a million quid in cash so there will be no end of folks who want to organise the boats...and offering safe passage and a new life in the west will guarantee that the boats are filled. The cycle continues again and again.

Think our schools and hospitals could easily absorb it all? Spoken to teachers about the fact that many primary schools now have a third of classes filled with Poles? Hospitals? Yepp, they're doing great at the moment so let's take more even more, eh!

One unpalatable solution (not that I am recommending it) is that we just give the boat runners a couple of million quid each and ask them nicely to stop!

DeVlaeminck

The family of one of those that have died were on breakfast news yesterday. Apparently the guy was a pro footballer over there - OK that isn't the same as being a pro footballer here but they made the point most of these people trying to come over are not the poorest in their own country - they are people who have the financial and physical means to be able to get to Libya and pay people traffickers to take the risk getting over here.

I know it sounds harsh but as already pointed out for every one we take it's going to encourage more to try - and the bigger a community you have here the more this will become the logical destination. I think we do have an obligation to help prevent these deaths and that may mean we spend more money on foreign aid but I don't see how taking in economic migrants is going to save lives if anything it'll just create more deaths by encouraging more people to try.

ddraver

Bobbinogs wrote:

Reading this thread is a bit like listening to the various politicians in a way. Everyone agrees that the tragedy of whole families of migrants drowning thing is dreadful... but no one can come up with a viable solution.

Take 1,000 and put them in any EU country...another 1,000 will rush to get into another boat...and another...and another. Each boat load makes someone a million quid in cash so there will be no end of folks who want to organise the boats...and offering safe passage and a new life in the west will guarantee that the boats are filled. The cycle continues again and again.

Think our schools and hospitals could easily absorb it all? Spoken to teachers about the fact that many primary schools now have a third of classes filled with Poles? Hospitals? Yepp, they're doing great at the moment so let's take more even more, eh!

One unpalatable solution (not that I am recommending it) is that we just give the boat runners a couple of million quid each and ask them nicely to stop!

The way to stop the drownings is to pull the rugs out from under the criminals that are running the boats. The situation has got so terrible now that I think arranging some sort of holding pattern ( which is probably an unpleasant, but hopefully not dangerous camp in Tunisia as Libya are refusing) to at least put a pause on the problem would be a start.

VTech

davmaggs wrote:

VTech wrote:

The solution is to punish last brits who soak up the assets of the british taxpayers.
People come here for a reason, the free state mixed with free healthcare and free benefits is like candy to a fat kid.

We need to educate and then punish people who won't work, I don't think there are many people who really can't work due to ill health, I would be surprised if it were as much as 2% of those claiming to be unfit.
Just like those who claim there are no jobs but the reality is that they don't want the jobs on offer or just don't want to work anyway.

If a soldier who has had both legs blown off defending his country can get a job and people like my mom who will work with terminal cancer and in huge pain then there is no excuse for these lazy sods who need a good belt round the head to wake them up from the life they "think" they are owed.

This will fill the positions and leave less reason for people to come here and do the jobs we simply don't do.

This isn't the full fix but its a start.

What's that got to do with the topic at hand?

Millions would come to Britain if there was zero welfare state. It's one of the richest countries on earth and provides some of the greatest opportunities to earn a living and its peaceful and well organised.

Cancelling the welfare state tomorrow wouldn't stop a single boat trip.

Landing in Italy is a far cry from then travelling through Germany, France and Belgium to get to the UK.
I can walk the streets of any of those countries without worry of being killed and persecuted.
The difference is that we have a system where people on the whole are lazy, this leaves decent jobs that brits feel are beneath them and this is what is so attractive for people wanting to settle.
Those jobs are not so easy to come by in other euro countries as they have different work ethics.

BelgianBeerGeek

ddraver wrote:

Bobbinogs wrote:

Reading this thread is a bit like listening to the various politicians in a way. Everyone agrees that the tragedy of whole families of migrants drowning thing is dreadful... but no one can come up with a viable solution.

Take 1,000 and put them in any EU country...another 1,000 will rush to get into another boat...and another...and another. Each boat load makes someone a million quid in cash so there will be no end of folks who want to organise the boats...and offering safe passage and a new life in the west will guarantee that the boats are filled. The cycle continues again and again.

Think our schools and hospitals could easily absorb it all? Spoken to teachers about the fact that many primary schools now have a third of classes filled with Poles? Hospitals? Yepp, they're doing great at the moment so let's take more even more, eh!

One unpalatable solution (not that I am recommending it) is that we just give the boat runners a couple of million quid each and ask them nicely to stop!

The way to stop the drownings is to pull the rugs out from under the criminals that are running the boats. The situation has got so terrible now that I think arranging some sort of holding pattern ( which is probably an unpleasant, but hopefully not dangerous camp in Tunisia as Libya are refusing) to at least put a pause on the problem would be a start.

How would you pull the rug from under the traffickers? This is a very organised business, akin to drug smuggling. As said above, many of those trying to get to Europe have some money and see using it to get here as an investment. Those with nowt aren't going anywhere. By the time they get to the Med some people have been on the road for months and months. They are not going to be deterred by a stretch of water.
The Spanish have enclaves in North Africa. Once you are in them you are in the EU. And they are full.

BelgianBeerGeek

BelgianBeerGeek wrote:

Thinking Allowed on R4 at 4 pm has a piece on this from their ethnography awards. The previews have been very interesting.

As Rick says, people paying lots of cash to risk death to get to Italy is probably a symptom of the situation. There probably were easier ways to get here but tighter controls have pushed people to desperate measures. That's how much they want to get here.
So what's to be done? Spend more money on border controls, that should do it...

For those who didn't hear it, this report was the winning entry. It is available on podcast etc and is a very interesting study on immigration into the EU and the "industry" it has spawned. Well worth a listen.

ddraver

BelgianBeerGeek wrote:

ddraver wrote:

Bobbinogs wrote:

Reading this thread is a bit like listening to the various politicians in a way. Everyone agrees that the tragedy of whole families of migrants drowning thing is dreadful... but no one can come up with a viable solution.

Take 1,000 and put them in any EU country...another 1,000 will rush to get into another boat...and another...and another. Each boat load makes someone a million quid in cash so there will be no end of folks who want to organise the boats...and offering safe passage and a new life in the west will guarantee that the boats are filled. The cycle continues again and again.

Think our schools and hospitals could easily absorb it all? Spoken to teachers about the fact that many primary schools now have a third of classes filled with Poles? Hospitals? Yepp, they're doing great at the moment so let's take more even more, eh!

One unpalatable solution (not that I am recommending it) is that we just give the boat runners a couple of million quid each and ask them nicely to stop!

The way to stop the drownings is to pull the rugs out from under the criminals that are running the boats. The situation has got so terrible now that I think arranging some sort of holding pattern ( which is probably an unpleasant, but hopefully not dangerous camp in Tunisia as Libya are refusing) to at least put a pause on the problem would be a start.

How would you pull the rug from under the traffickers? This is a very organised business, akin to drug smuggling. As said above, many of those trying to get to Europe have some money and see using it to get here as an investment. Those with nowt aren't going anywhere. By the time they get to the Med some people have been on the road for months and months. They are not going to be deterred by a stretch of water.
The Spanish have enclaves in North Africa. Once you are in them you are in the EU. And they are full.

The only way you pull the rug out of anything that is illegal - provide a safer, legal alternative as I have suggested in the previous post