immigrant deaths the med

VTech

Do the Italia's really expect people to believe that the captain of the boat in the med was drunk and high on canabis ? and that this is the reason for the capsizing of the boat.
It baffles me why so many people take onboard the info given on the news even though if the same stories were given in an open court, any judge worth his salt would throw out the case.
What happened was awful but the fact is that people are escaping rather than looking for a better life like many european settlers. These people need help but instead europe waits for them to cross a sea knowing many are dying daily.

Also, the fact that all of the 28 survivors are confirming that although the ship was in distress, the people were alive and onboard up until the time when the Portuguese ship approached, hit the side of the ship and it then capsized.

Will anyone really believe that a 27 year old owned, organised and then captained the boat under the influence of drink and drugs ?
Why can't UK news be more consistent.

ddraver

I'm not sure how this is inconsistent? was that an auto correct error?

On the rest of it, do you have any information that conters the Italian Explanation?

CYCLESPORT1

Would Diana's bodyguard get in a car with a drunk !

ballysmate

Tony Abbot may have the answer.
These tragedies will continue as long as Europe takes in the migrants. Turn the boats back or tow them back whence they came.
As long as people traffickers can hold out hope of getting people across, there will be people desperate enough to try.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ccess.html

veronese68

VTech wrote:

What happened was awful but the fact is that people are escaping rather than looking for a better life like many european settlers. These people need help but instead europe waits for them to cross a sea knowing many are dying daily.

I don't know about the accuracy or otherwise of the press reports but I have to agree with this. These people are desperate and are in need of help.
Apparently Katie Hopkins wrote in the Sun that these migrants were cockroaches and we should be using gunships to stop them coming to Europe. I know it's her job to be controversial but I don't know what to say about that. What a truly vile individual to even think that.

MisterMuncher

I doubt very much the realities of landing at the far side will make a lick of difference to what people traffickers will and won't do. Realistically, we'd just have the refugees dying a little further away.

But hey, out of sight, out of mind, right?

RideOnTime

I seek an amendment to the thread title...

Migrant deaths in the Med

Please

Thanks

MisterMuncher

Perhaps amend it to Refugee Deaths In The Med, in the interests of accuracy.

ddraver

Veronese68 wrote:

VTech wrote:

What happened was awful but the fact is that people are escaping rather than looking for a better life like many european settlers. These people need help but instead europe waits for them to cross a sea knowing many are dying daily.

I don't know about the accuracy or otherwise of the press reports but I have to agree with this. These people are desperate and are in need of help.
Apparently Katie Hopkins wrote in the Sun that these migrants were cockroaches and we should be using gunships to stop them coming to Europe. I know it's her job to be controversial but I don't know what to say about that. What a truly vile individual to even think that.

Agree with both, but regarding the refugees (hat tip), the only way to really keep them safe would be to send boats over to pick them up (which I sympathise with, but a look at the UKIP thread suggests that many people dont).

The boats are being run by criminal gangs who overload them and then send them off with a "captain" that they re happy to lose (or at least won't miss much). VTech talks like these guys have industry standard training. Even if it were true, part of the process is sending boats that they KNOW are going to get into trouble so that the migrants are rescued and taken to the EU. If one can encourage that process by ramming a boat or two on the way, so much the better...

Hopkins is just a horrible sign of the times...

MisterMuncher

Hopkins is a tacky controversialist for money. I doubt she holds her opinions with any great fervour, she's playing to the gallery for coins.

veronese68

RideOnTime wrote:

I seek an amendment to the thread title...

Migrant deaths in the Med

Please

Thanks

Thankfully I'd autocorrected it and not noticed, until you pointed it out.

VTech

Got the wording wrong so hopefully sorted now.
Just gutted that innocent people are being exploited in the first place and then treated so badly.

Also gutted that we are lied too by news centres to make us believe the fault is with a captain of a boat when truth is, he is just a pawn in a much bigger game.

ballysmate

mr_goo

This situation with the immigrants drowning in the Med on a daily basis has given me Compassion Fatigue.
Whilst I can understand anyone wanting to better their lot in life, the attraction of getting into Europe illegally must end.
William Hague was quite right in stating that if Europe dispatches more patrol vessels and rescue assets then it will draw them in even more.
Ed Millipede in condemning this yesterday, is quite obviously after a few votes.
And as for CaMoron stating that the weekends tragedy was a 'Dark day for Europe'. Why the hell should Europe feel responsible for the deaths of hundreds immigrants?

Compassion Fatigue. I am not looking for a cure.

veronese68

Mr Goo wrote:

This situation with the immigrants drowning in the Med on a daily basis has given me Compassion Fatigue.
Whilst I can understand anyone wanting to better their lot in life, the attraction of getting into Europe illegally must end.

You do know there's a difference between economic migrants trying to better their lot and people trying to survive don't you? Compassion fatigue :roll:

mr_goo

Veronese68 wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

This situation with the immigrants drowning in the Med on a daily basis has given me Compassion Fatigue.
Whilst I can understand anyone wanting to better their lot in life, the attraction of getting into Europe illegally must end.

You do know there's a difference between economic migrants trying to better their lot and people trying to survive don't you? Compassion fatigue :roll:

Fully aware thank you very much. It is a hot topic at present and one that has got the European leaders running around like headless chickens. What I am referring to is that I should not have to feel responsible for these deaths, unlike the news channels would have us believe.
It will certainly make UKIP change their views on Foreign Aid. FWIW it wouldn't be a bad idea to up the foreign aid budget for a set period of time from all Western Nations. And get the infrastructure sorted out in some of the countries where people are fleeing from. Easier said than done. But the benefits in the long run would be less pressure on Western nations.

capt_slog

If we accept that they are "escaping rather than looking for a better life like many european settlers", is it fair to ask how many will make the return journey to their homes if/when everything is sorted out?

ballysmate

It may not be a matter of upping foreign aid, perhaps just target it more efficiently. Sorry India, China and Brazil.

MisterMuncher

A Marshall Plan for North Africa isn't a bad idea.

ballysmate

Capt Slog wrote:

If we accept that they are "escaping rather than looking for a better life like many european settlers", is it fair to ask how many will make the return journey to their homes if/when everything is sorted out?

You won't need to take your shoes and socks off to count them.

ballysmate

MisterMuncher wrote:

A Marshall Plan for North Africa isn't a bad idea.

Paid for by whom? Good luck with the begging bowl.

mamba80

Mr Goo wrote:

This situation with the immigrants drowning in the Med on a daily basis has given me Compassion Fatigue.
Whilst I can understand anyone wanting to better their lot in life, the attraction of getting into Europe illegally must end.
William Hague was quite right in stating that if Europe dispatches more patrol vessels and rescue assets then it will draw them in even more.
Ed Millipede in condemning this yesterday, is quite obviously after a few votes.
And as for CaMoron stating that the weekends tragedy was a 'Dark day for Europe'. Why the hell should Europe feel responsible for the deaths of hundreds immigrants?

Compassion Fatigue. I am not looking for a cure.

No chance, Hague is an idiot, these people will come any way, the EU with Camerons approval, his tears are crocodile, has already halved its rescue patrols and still the numbers crossing the med increase, all that has changed is more drown.

Europe should feel responsible because they got rid of Gadiffi and turned libya from a relatively stable state, to a failed one, we have done nothing for the people of Syria, even Farage has complained about that!
Having reception centres at these camps and making sure they are at least habitable would help, as would supporting Assad, Russia and China warned what would happen if we didnt and it has!

As for sending them back? oh really? they ll of course go quietly !!! not! so european troops using tear gas and riot control on women and children, to get them back to a lawless country, where they just come again and again.
sinking the boats in the ports? that ll mean a mini invasion of Libya and again the criminal gangs and insurgents controlling these places will mean EU troops being killed, cant really have an air strike in a civilian area to sink a fishing boat, that maybe be packed with people!

Somehow, we ve got get the countries of origin under control again, and reduce the factors dragging these people to the EU, i dont know how we'd ever do that.

MisterMuncher

Foreign Aid budgets exist, yes? So why not precisely target them like that for a time, perhaps effect a longer term solution?

veronese68

Mr Goo wrote:

Veronese68 wrote:

Fully aware thank you very much.

Apologies, sick to death of hearing people moaning about immigration and asylum seekers and not having a clue about the differences between certain types. Had a customer dribbling on about asylum seekers and illegal immigrants sponging and clogging up the NHS. Then eventually I realised he was talking about Eastern Europeans from within the EU. He finished by saying he'd had enough and might move to France. I didn't bother telling him that was exactly the same thing as he was complaining about.
People will want to come here to improve their lot because our economy is doing well. My Father is English, moved to Italy as he married an Italian and worked there. His company moved him to the London office for 2 years in 1970 and we've been here ever since. I tend to hold a more European view as a consequence and don't have a problem with people moving around Europe to find work. I also believe rich nations should try to help poorer nations, making sure the aid gets to the right places is of course a problem. But people need to remember that they are other people that are so desperate they are willing to risk their lives to get away from the situation in their home countries because that is better than staying put.
The above may not make sense, I keep being interrupted by work and really should get on with it. :oops:

mr_goo

mamba80 wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

This situation with the immigrants drowning in the Med on a daily basis has given me Compassion Fatigue.
Whilst I can understand anyone wanting to better their lot in life, the attraction of getting into Europe illegally must end.
William Hague was quite right in stating that if Europe dispatches more patrol vessels and rescue assets then it will draw them in even more.
Ed Millipede in condemning this yesterday, is quite obviously after a few votes.
And as for CaMoron stating that the weekends tragedy was a 'Dark day for Europe'. Why the hell should Europe feel responsible for the deaths of hundreds immigrants?

Compassion Fatigue. I am not looking for a cure.

No chance, Hague is an idiot, these people will come any way, the EU with Camerons approval, his tears are crocodile, has already halved its rescue patrols and still the numbers crossing the med increase, all that has changed is more drown.

Europe should feel responsible because they got rid of Gadiffi and turned libya from a relatively stable state, to a failed one, we have done nothing for the people of Syria, even Farage has complained about that!
Having reception centres at these camps and making sure they are at least habitable would help, as would supporting Assad, Russia and China warned what would happen if we didnt and it has!

As for sending them back? oh really? they ll of course go quietly !!! not! so european troops using tear gas and riot control on women and children, to get them back to a lawless country, where they just come again and again.
sinking the boats in the ports? that ll mean a mini invasion of Libya and again the criminal gangs and insurgents controlling these places will mean EU troops being killed, cant really have an air strike in a civilian area to sink a fishing boat, that maybe be packed with people!

Somehow, we ve got get the countries of origin under control again, and reduce the factors dragging these people to the EU, i dont know how we'd ever do that.

Agree totally with your comment about getting rid of Gaddafi. Same goes for Saddam and Mubarak. As stated before. They were absolute tyrants, but the countries were stable and by and large prosperous. Gaddafi was investing his oil revenues into infrastructure schemes. I recently spoke to an old chap who worked out in Iraq during Saddam's early reign. He said he was an absolute bar steward, but had to rule with an iron fist to keep the tribalism and extremism in check, otherwise the country would descend into chaos. As it has now.

However you cannot blame the EU, USA or West for the utter 5hit Fest that the region is now in. The blame lies squarely at Bush and Blair. Two total dickwads who have screwed up the lives of millions of people, caused countless deaths both during and after their ill conceived invasions. And both have profited financially in their retirement from leadership and will not have to suffer the consequences.

The Arab spring and forced/quick democracy cannot work in a country that has no experience of this system. Hence the vacuum of power will be filled by the strong arm of the extremists.

More foreign aid is needed. Support Assad to kill off IS, and let him be. Assad again brutal by our standards, but as history is showing. If you don't rule by strong arm leadership in this region, all hell breaks loose.

CYCLESPORT1

One was talking on the news last night, he said he paid £2000, he could have got on a plain for that !

ddraver

CYCLESPORT1 wrote:

One was talking on the news last night, he said he paid £2000, he could have got on a plain for that !

but not dodged immigration...

sungod

CYCLESPORT1 wrote:

One was talking on the news last night, he said he paid £2000, he could have got on a plain for that !

i doubt it

airlines will not take you without proof that you'll be allowed into the destination country, i suspect many of these people do not even have local id let alone passports and visas

syria, libya, yemen, somalia, etc. are failed/failing states, with extreme brutality and hardship, and severe disruption to normal commercial/civil activity, including flights in/out

which is why people are willing to risk everything to try reaching somewhere safe and 'better'

some will have taken loans plunging their families into debt/servitude in the hope that they'll be able to send money home once they reach europe, those debts are not written off if they drown slowly in the med

i'm sure that some who survive will come to despise their new home, or perhaps even be twisted into extremism, as they find that this isn't the promised land and that without their cultural, family and social networks they will struggle to assimilate or gain any more than the most menial of employment

we, our governments, need to stop playing geopolitical games with other peoples' countries, we may not like those governments (so fine, let's stop: seling them weapons, swapping bribes for business, raping their resources, helping them hide and enjoy their stolen fortunes, sucking up to their royals/despots/generals/oligarchs etc. and generally acting like the greedy debased scum we've shown ourselves to be over the last decades), but recent history proves it's extremely unlikely that destabilising them will result in less death and misery

it's a horrific situation with no easy solution, in the short term the best we can do is act humanely

davmaggs

I'm replying to various points made above as there's a lot of mixing up of issues and then people claiming that different terminology should be used.

The reason that the boats are so useless or the "Captains" unqualified is that it is a one-way trip. Those boats are going to be impounded so they aren't going to use seaworthy vessels. In the past they've thrown people overboard to try and save the boats as it forces the navies to stop whilst the trafficker gets away. It's probably a better return on investment to overload a rusting hulks and go one-one e.g they've changed tactic.

The people on the boats fit the terminology of refugees and migrants. Recent footage and interviews has shown people from Syria and safe countries like Ghana and Nigeria. Some are clearly therefore economic migrants and some are what could be classed as refugees. Libya is the gateway, not the source of the people.

The tough, heartbreaking issue is that this an impossible dilemma for politicians. There is a vast economic disparity that means that we could offer a million places tomorrow, and they'd be filled in a week. We could take ten million people and fill that too, in fact we could offer 50 million permits and within months they'd all be taken. Millions upon millions of people want to be in the EU, in particular the five or six big economies.

Even within the EU, which is rich, millions of people moved to the UK in a decade and its caused social tension, a strain on infrastructure and competition on wages and housing. Compassion is what any decent person shows, but deep down we know that we don't want 10 million more poor people coming here and we don't want our cities to have shanty towns etc etc. We want and need the many millions to be kept out.

The solutions aren't really achievable in our lifetimes either, so something temporary will be done until the headlines fade away. Meanwhile, the politicians don't actually have any idea what to do so they hope that a new strongman appears in Libya to secure that border or something else unknown occurs.

VTech

davmaggs wrote:

I'm replying to various points made above as there's a lot of mixing up of issues and then people claiming that different terminology should be used.

The reason that the boats are so useless or the "Captains" unqualified is that it is a one-way trip. Those boats are going to be impounded so they aren't going to use seaworthy vessels. In the past they've thrown people overboard to try and save the boats as it forces the navies to stop whilst the trafficker gets away. It's probably a better return on investment to overload a rusting hulks and go one-one e.g they've changed tactic.

The people on the boats fit the terminology of refugees and migrants. Recent footage and interviews has shown people from Syria and safe countries like Ghana and Nigeria. Some are clearly therefore economic migrants and some are what could be classed as refugees. Libya is the gateway, not the source of the people.

The tough, heartbreaking issue is that this an impossible dilemma for politicians. There is a vast economic disparity that means that we could offer a million places tomorrow, and they'd be filled in a week. We could take ten million people and fill that too, in fact we could offer 50 million permits and within months they'd all be taken. Millions upon millions of people want to be in the EU, in particular the five or six big economies.

Even within the EU, which is rich, millions of people moved to the UK in a decade and its caused social tension, a strain on infrastructure and competition on wages and housing. Compassion is what any decent person shows, but deep down we know that we don't want 10 million more poor people coming here and we don't want our cities to have shanty towns etc etc. We want and need the many millions to be kept out.

The solutions aren't really achievable in our lifetimes either, so something temporary will be done until the headlines fade away. Meanwhile, the politicians don't actually have any idea what to do so they hope that a new strongman appears in Libya to secure that border or something else unknown occurs.

Very well worded post but couldn't we adopt the Australian stand ?
I have been to poor places and its shocking, humbling and mind bending just what people have to live through and I doubt I've been anywhere even close to that of some of these people.
I feel for these people but as you say, we don't have resources to home or fund them here.

mr_goo

If what I hear on the news comes to pass and that all EU member states will have to take a share of these wretched souls, it will be really interesting is to see the local population reactions of the new EU countries, ie; Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Poland, Czech Rep, Slovenia, Slovakia etc.

Another few hundred arrived in Italy today. That as a one off can be absorbed within europe. But not on a daily basis. Europe is undergoing an extended period of austerity in order to balance the books. This unplanned and unwelcome deluge of refugees/migrants will crash many resources of the EU that are already under incredible strain. It will propagate a rise in nationalism that could mirror that seen in 1930s Europe.