Own Goal for the Tories

RideOnTime

Ballysmate wrote:

RideOnTime wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Where did that own goal go?

Don't rub salt into bitter, bitter wounds.

If you voted for 'em you got 'em. You got 'em with a majority. We'll be Little England out of the Union and out of Europe in the blink of an eye. Wearing black starched clothes, riding horses and scrambling around in the dirt.

Out of the Union? Cameron can't do that, no politician can. Only the people can do that via another referendum. Even if it was within his gift, why should we down in England vote in a dreadful socialist government just so that our Scots brothers would stay? If they want to go, it is their choice.
Out of Europe? Again not in Cameron's power. The people will decide yea or nay. No idea how that vote will go, not even certain which way I'd vote. We will have to wait to see what is presented.

I think my disappointment is that I was hoping for some consensual politics. I don't fear Cameron as such but I do fear those right swingers and Euro-sceptics there's plenty of them. I doubt Cameron will last 5 years as leader or even wants to. Even though UKIP didn't get many seats there's a baying of 'Little Englanders' hell bent on putting us back into the 18th century.

ballysmate

RideOnTime wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

RideOnTime wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Where did that own goal go?

Don't rub salt into bitter, bitter wounds.

If you voted for 'em you got 'em. You got 'em with a majority. We'll be Little England out of the Union and out of Europe in the blink of an eye. Wearing black starched clothes, riding horses and scrambling around in the dirt.

Out of the Union? Cameron can't do that, no politician can. Only the people can do that via another referendum. Even if it was within his gift, why should we down in England vote in a dreadful socialist government just so that our Scots brothers would stay? If they want to go, it is their choice.
Out of Europe? Again not in Cameron's power. The people will decide yea or nay. No idea how that vote will go, not even certain which way I'd vote. We will have to wait to see what is presented.

I think my disappointment is that I was hoping for some consensual politics. I don't fear Cameron as such but I do fear those right swingers and Euro-sceptics there's plenty of them. I doubt Cameron will last 5 years as leader or even wants to. Even though UKIP didn't get many seats there's a baying of 'Little Englanders' hell bent on putting us back into the 18th century.

So, as I said, it will be the people who will decide. Cameron will put forward the terms of our membership, not his terms mind you, but the terms of the EU and the people will decide. So you fear the voice of the British people?

mr_goo

Rick Chasey wrote:

diy wrote:

I know its not very PC, but the issue with the NHS is demand, not supply. We are growing at a fairly massive rate, we are living longer and importing huge numbers of unhealthy people.

Vast majority of immigrants contribute more than they consume because, unsurprisingly, the majority come to the UK for work. Usually get educated elsewhere, come to the UK to earn (and thus pay tax).

Living longer and rising cost of care is the only noticeable driver.

Rick. Does that mean that on the first day someone turns up in this country and gets a job flipping burgers at McBurgerChicken, that they should be entitled to FREE fully comprehensive medical care?

Stevo_666

RideOnTime wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

RideOnTime wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Where did that own goal go?

Don't rub salt into bitter, bitter wounds.

If you voted for 'em you got 'em. You got 'em with a majority. We'll be Little England out of the Union and out of Europe in the blink of an eye. Wearing black starched clothes, riding horses and scrambling around in the dirt.

Out of the Union? Cameron can't do that, no politician can. Only the people can do that via another referendum. Even if it was within his gift, why should we down in England vote in a dreadful socialist government just so that our Scots brothers would stay? If they want to go, it is their choice.
Out of Europe? Again not in Cameron's power. The people will decide yea or nay. No idea how that vote will go, not even certain which way I'd vote. We will have to wait to see what is presented.

I think my disappointment is that I was hoping for some consensual politics. I don't fear Cameron as such but I do fear those right swingers and Euro-sceptics there's plenty of them. I doubt Cameron will last 5 years as leader or even wants to. Even though UKIP didn't get many seats there's a baying of 'Little Englanders' hell bent on putting us back into the 18th century.

If any other political combination had got in apart from perhaps another Con- Lib Dem coalition, we would have ended back in near bankruptcy like with the last 2 labour administrations. At least Britain wasn't bankrupt in the 18th century.

Anyway, the lefties have had their day out and they lost. Tough.

Pross

diy wrote:

I know its not very PC, but the issue with the NHS is demand, not supply. We are growing at a fairly massive rate, we are living longer and importing huge numbers of unhealthy people.

The paradox for me is how much money is put into keeping people alive longer when we then say the ageing population is unsustainable and people will have to work longer to afford it.

rick_chasey

Mr Goo wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

diy wrote:

I know its not very PC, but the issue with the NHS is demand, not supply. We are growing at a fairly massive rate, we are living longer and importing huge numbers of unhealthy people.

Vast majority of immigrants contribute more than they consume because, unsurprisingly, the majority come to the UK for work. Usually get educated elsewhere, come to the UK to earn (and thus pay tax).

Living longer and rising cost of care is the only noticeable driver.

Rick. Does that mean that on the first day someone turns up in this country and gets a job flipping burgers at McBurgerChicken, that they should be entitled to FREE fully comprehensive medical care?

In the same way I get free healthcare in Europe when I go on holiday/work there, if I get ill, yeah.

It's a very small cost in the broader scheme of things.

Anti-Immigrant Brits would do well to put the fork down and eat less. That would save the country 10-15fold what a stricter immigration policy would do for the NHS (and that's before the tax receipts people who immigrate generate).

morstar

So Goo, would you swap all the young, working Eastern Europeans for having back the million oldies we've got living in Spain bleeding their health system dry?
All well and good taking a small piece of the argument in isolation but you have to take the rough with the smooth.
The problem with the NHS is it's expected to remain at the cutting edge of everything and a disproportional amount of resource gets directed to frontier medicine. Controversially, I'd argue we need to be more pragmatic and have the NHS provide established and affordable healthcare and the private sector do the developments stuff funded by the wealthy and the corporate world.
And yes, that is cold calculated decision made whilst in good health myself. I'd rather have a good health service 5 years behind the cutting edge of medicine but sustainable for years to come than one that implodes through trying to deliver the cutting edge on all fronts.

DesB3rd

At least Britain wasn't bankrupt in the 18th century.

Not quite, but that's not to say they didn't run massive debts - debt/GDP ratios 100-200% were par for the course. France was worse off mind, they ran similar debts but were far less systematic a nurturing lender confidence; ultimately the long on-off war of that century went Britain's way largely because they could borrow cheaply and their rival could not - something of an object lesson in the far reaching implications of fiscal policy.

Don't think that states trying to "square the fiscal circle" with imaginative uses of fiat (or quasi-representative) currency is anything new; just as today their were plenty who thought that some method or other would escape the inherent (albeit subject to temporary manipulation) nature of money as tied commodity value...

RideOnTime

Ballysmate wrote:

RideOnTime wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

RideOnTime wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Where did that own goal go?

Don't rub salt into bitter, bitter wounds.

If you voted for 'em you got 'em. You got 'em with a majority. We'll be Little England out of the Union and out of Europe in the blink of an eye. Wearing black starched clothes, riding horses and scrambling around in the dirt.

Out of the Union? Cameron can't do that, no politician can. Only the people can do that via another referendum. Even if it was within his gift, why should we down in England vote in a dreadful socialist government just so that our Scots brothers would stay? If they want to go, it is their choice.
Out of Europe? Again not in Cameron's power. The people will decide yea or nay. No idea how that vote will go, not even certain which way I'd vote. We will have to wait to see what is presented.

I think my disappointment is that I was hoping for some consensual politics. I don't fear Cameron as such but I do fear those right swingers and Euro-sceptics there's plenty of them. I doubt Cameron will last 5 years as leader or even wants to. Even though UKIP didn't get many seats there's a baying of 'Little Englanders' hell bent on putting us back into the 18th century.

So, as I said, it will be the people who will decide. Cameron will put forward the terms of our membership, not his terms mind you, but the terms of the EU and the people will decide. So you fear the voice of the British people?

yes









yes I do.

ballysmate

RideOnTime wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

RideOnTime wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

RideOnTime wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Where did that own goal go?

Don't rub salt into bitter, bitter wounds.

If you voted for 'em you got 'em. You got 'em with a majority. We'll be Little England out of the Union and out of Europe in the blink of an eye. Wearing black starched clothes, riding horses and scrambling around in the dirt.

Out of the Union? Cameron can't do that, no politician can. Only the people can do that via another referendum. Even if it was within his gift, why should we down in England vote in a dreadful socialist government just so that our Scots brothers would stay? If they want to go, it is their choice.
Out of Europe? Again not in Cameron's power. The people will decide yea or nay. No idea how that vote will go, not even certain which way I'd vote. We will have to wait to see what is presented.

I think my disappointment is that I was hoping for some consensual politics. I don't fear Cameron as such but I do fear those right swingers and Euro-sceptics there's plenty of them. I doubt Cameron will last 5 years as leader or even wants to. Even though UKIP didn't get many seats there's a baying of 'Little Englanders' hell bent on putting us back into the 18th century.

So, as I said, it will be the people who will decide. Cameron will put forward the terms of our membership, not his terms mind you, but the terms of the EU and the people will decide. So you fear the voice of the British people?

yes I do.

We are to be given a choice. They even invented a word for it - Democracy. Some people no doubt will be unhappy with the result.
On the subject of people being unhappy with a result, see the loony left were out yesterday rioting in London and defacing war memorials, branding people 'Scum' for having the temerity for voting Tory.
Even that political colossus, Charlotte Church was out protesting in Cardiff and has apparently lost faith in humanity following the election result.
If some of these people had their way, there would be only one name on every ballot paper.
Grow up, children!

RideOnTime

Ballysmate wrote:

RideOnTime wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

RideOnTime wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

RideOnTime wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Where did that own goal go?

Don't rub salt into bitter, bitter wounds.

If you voted for 'em you got 'em. You got 'em with a majority. We'll be Little England out of the Union and out of Europe in the blink of an eye. Wearing black starched clothes, riding horses and scrambling around in the dirt.

Out of the Union? Cameron can't do that, no politician can. Only the people can do that via another referendum. Even if it was within his gift, why should we down in England vote in a dreadful socialist government just so that our Scots brothers would stay? If they want to go, it is their choice.
Out of Europe? Again not in Cameron's power. The people will decide yea or nay. No idea how that vote will go, not even certain which way I'd vote. We will have to wait to see what is presented.

I think my disappointment is that I was hoping for some consensual politics. I don't fear Cameron as such but I do fear those right swingers and Euro-sceptics there's plenty of them. I doubt Cameron will last 5 years as leader or even wants to. Even though UKIP didn't get many seats there's a baying of 'Little Englanders' hell bent on putting us back into the 18th century.

So, as I said, it will be the people who will decide. Cameron will put forward the terms of our membership, not his terms mind you, but the terms of the EU and the people will decide. So you fear the voice of the British people?

yes I do.

We are to be given a choice. They even invented a word for it - Democracy. Some people no doubt will be unhappy with the result.
On the subject of people being unhappy with a result, see the loony left were out yesterday rioting in London and defacing war memorials, branding people 'Scum' for having the temerity for voting Tory.
Even that political colossus, Charlotte Church was out protesting in Cardiff and has apparently lost faith in humanity following the election result.
If some of these people had their way, there would be only one name on every ballot paper.
Grow up, children!

Charlotte of course one of the great philosophers of modern times.
Nice t1ts as well I recall.

Stevo_666

Ballysmate wrote:

We are to be given a choice. They even invented a word for it - Democracy. Some people no doubt will be unhappy with the result.
On the subject of people being unhappy with a result, see the loony left were out yesterday rioting in London and defacing war memorials, branding people 'Scum' for having the temerity for voting Tory.
Even that political colossus, Charlotte Church was out protesting in Cardiff and has apparently lost faith in humanity following the election result.
If some of these people had their way, there would be only one name on every ballot paper.
Grow up, children!

Quite.

Such is the unexpected enormity of the Conservative victory that the left of centre lot have been reduced to vandalism and rioting as they simply have run out of things to say. Even on here, the leftie arguments don't get any further than either:
a. The election wasn't fair/valid because we don't use PR/not enough people turned out to vote.
b. We're all doomed now the Tories are in (conveniently forgetting that they've been in for 5 years already)

The inconvenient truth is that the leftie message was not as good as the conservative message. Nor for that matter, is their record in running the country. Otherwise they would have won regardless of whether it's FPTP or PR.

finchy

Stevo 666 wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

We are to be given a choice. They even invented a word for it - Democracy. Some people no doubt will be unhappy with the result.
On the subject of people being unhappy with a result, see the loony left were out yesterday rioting in London and defacing war memorials, branding people 'Scum' for having the temerity for voting Tory.
Even that political colossus, Charlotte Church was out protesting in Cardiff and has apparently lost faith in humanity following the election result.
If some of these people had their way, there would be only one name on every ballot paper.
Grow up, children!

Quite.

Such is the unexpected enormity of the Conservative victory that the left of centre lot have been reduced to vandalism and rioting as they simply have run out of things to say. Even on here, the leftie arguments don't get any further than either:
a. The election wasn't fair/valid because we don't use PR/not enough people turned out to vote.
b. We're all doomed now the Tories are in (conveniently forgetting that they've been in for 5 years already)

The inconvenient truth is that the leftie message was not as good as the conservative message. Nor for that matter, is their record in running the country. Otherwise they would have won regardless of whether it's FPTP or PR.

Funny that, because every time one of us lefties point out that the Tories proposed exactly the same economic policies as Gordon Brown, all the conservatives go silent.

Stevo_666

johnfinch wrote:

Funny that, because every time one of us lefties point out that the Tories proposed exactly the same economic policies as Gordon Brown, all the conservatives go silent.

I'm not going quiet. Since you're making the claim, list out the policies you claim are exactly the same. Should be interesting...

For a start, I don't ever recall Tory policy of the day being to spend way more than we earn and leave the country in a financial mess

pblakeney

Stevo 666 wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

Funny that, because every time one of us lefties point out that the Tories proposed exactly the same economic policies as Gordon Brown, all the conservatives go silent.

I'm not going quiet. Since you're making the claim, list out the policies you claim are exactly the same. Should be interesting...

For a start, I don't ever recall Tory policy of the day being to spend way more than we earn and leave the country in a financial mess

It may not be policy but it looks like the net result with the National debt increasing.

ballysmate

PBlakeney wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

Funny that, because every time one of us lefties point out that the Tories proposed exactly the same economic policies as Gordon Brown, all the conservatives go silent.

I'm not going quiet. Since you're making the claim, list out the policies you claim are exactly the same. Should be interesting...

For a start, I don't ever recall Tory policy of the day being to spend way more than we earn and leave the country in a financial mess

It may not be policy but it looks like the net result with the National debt increasing.

There's a difference between debt and deficit.

pblakeney

Ballysmate wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

Funny that, because every time one of us lefties point out that the Tories proposed exactly the same economic policies as Gordon Brown, all the conservatives go silent.

I'm not going quiet. Since you're making the claim, list out the policies you claim are exactly the same. Should be interesting...

For a start, I don't ever recall Tory policy of the day being to spend way more than we earn and leave the country in a financial mess

It may not be policy but it looks like the net result with the National debt increasing.

There's a difference between debt and deficit.

There may be a difference but aren't they both higher now than they were in 2010?

mr_goo

EU.
On what planet does Cameron think he is, in thinking that when the UK has the presidency in late 2017 (the apparent EU IN/Out referendum, that will never happen) he will be in a position to re-negotiate terms. Herr Merkel and her poodle Hollande will simply tell him where to get off. So in summary. No point in wasting time Cameron. Do the referendum this autumn for England/Wales/NI. Scotland can go their own way as they should now be independent and we shouldn't be subsidising them so heavily through the Barnett formula. My kids would like to have gone to university free of charge!!!!

ballysmate

PBlakeney wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

Funny that, because every time one of us lefties point out that the Tories proposed exactly the same economic policies as Gordon Brown, all the conservatives go silent.

I'm not going quiet. Since you're making the claim, list out the policies you claim are exactly the same. Should be interesting...

For a start, I don't ever recall Tory policy of the day being to spend way more than we earn and leave the country in a financial mess

It may not be policy but it looks like the net result with the National debt increasing.

There's a difference between debt and deficit.

There may be a difference but aren't they both higher now than they were in 2010?

Deficit is lower, but of course with any deficit, the debt increases.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-25944653

pblakeney

I could point out that while those graphs look promising, they are 25-33% projections.
Reality could prove very different.
Everything was looking almost as promising in those charts prior to 2008.

But then again, my default position is lies, damned lies, and statistics.

Frank the tank

Over the last five years the tories have doubled the national debt, fact.

However the British public, well, one third of two thirds eligible to vote who bothered think that's alright. I like many others will have to accept it.

ballysmate

Frank the tank wrote:

Over the last five years the tories have doubled the national debt, fact.

However the British public, well, one third of two thirds eligible to vote who bothered think that's alright. I like many others will have to accept it.

Frank, please refer to my earlier post ref the difference between debt and deficit. Of course the debt has gone up, we are still running a deficit, albeit heading in the right direction.

finchy

stevo666 wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

Funny that, because every time one of us lefties point out that the Tories proposed exactly the same economic policies as Gordon Brown, all the conservatives go silent.

I'm not going quiet. Since you're making the claim, list out the policies you claim are exactly the same. Should be interesting...

For a start, I don't ever recall Tory policy of the day being to spend way more than we earn and leave the country in a financial mess

Here you go, Tories were promising to match Labour's spending as late as 2007.

Of course, sustainable increases in public spending is easy if you take the "shining example" of Ireland as a model for future growth. Oh, wait a minute, I think Ireland might have had a few troubles as well over these past few years.

Of course, with the disastrous deregulation of mortgage lending and the finance sector, it's nice to know that the Tories wanted to prevent that problem by... erm, deregulating it even further.

Daily Torygraph wrote:

A vast range of regulations on the financial services industry should either be abolished or watered down, including money-laundering restrictions affecting banks and building societies. Mr Redwood's group also sees "no need to continue" to regulate mortgage provision, saying it is the lender, not the client, who takes the risk.

This, Stevo, is why I have no faith in either of the big 2 parties when it comes to the economy.

BelgianBeerGeek

I wouldn't worry about the Tory party too much as they are usually their own worst enemies. It won't be long before they tear themselves apart over Europe. And when Cameron said he wouldn't be PM for a third term he shot himself in the foot. In 2020 the Tories will want to have a stable party leader/potential PM.
I don't know how long the honeymoon will last. I give Cameron 18 months, tops.

bompington

[quote="BelgianBeerGeek"I give Cameron 18 months, tops.[/quote]
I assume you're going to eat your hat if...

arthur_scrimshaw

Stevo 666 wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

Funny that, because every time one of us lefties point out that the Tories proposed exactly the same economic policies as Gordon Brown, all the conservatives go silent.

I'm not going quiet. Since you're making the claim, list out the policies you claim are exactly the same. Should be interesting...

For a start, I don't ever recall Tory policy of the day being to spend way more than we earn and leave the country in a financial mess

But that's one of the main reasons why Labour had no chance of winning this election, not because what you said is true (I don't think you believe it either - it's not that simple) but they didn't try to counter public perception that they were responsible for the financial meltdown which screwed most of the 1st world economies. for whatever reason Labour decided to let that go and try to move the argument on. Big mistake.

fredmac

Ballysmate wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

Over the last five years the tories have doubled the national debt, fact.

However the British public, well, one third of two thirds eligible to vote who bothered think that's alright. I like many others will have to accept it.

Frank, please refer to my earlier post ref the difference between debt and deficit. Of course the debt has gone up, we are still running a deficit, albeit heading in the right direction.

You could also mention that the UK has the third highest deficit in Europe, behind Spain and Cyprus, but hey we're heading in the right direction.

Stevo_666

johnfinch wrote:

stevo666 wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

Funny that, because every time one of us lefties point out that the Tories proposed exactly the same economic policies as Gordon Brown, all the conservatives go silent.

I'm not going quiet. Since you're making the claim, list out the policies you claim are exactly the same. Should be interesting...

For a start, I don't ever recall Tory policy of the day being to spend way more than we earn and leave the country in a financial mess

Here you go, Tories were promising to match Labour's spending as late as 2007.

A promise to match public spending three years before taking power is a long, long way from - as you claimed above - 'exactly the same economic policies'. Unless of course you believe that economic policy only consists of public spending - which would be a very left wing thing to do

I can point to many obvious differences in policies - like personal and corporate tax rates - which make nonsense of your claim.

finchy

Stevo 666 wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

stevo666 wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

Funny that, because every time one of us lefties point out that the Tories proposed exactly the same economic policies as Gordon Brown, all the conservatives go silent.

I'm not going quiet. Since you're making the claim, list out the policies you claim are exactly the same. Should be interesting...

For a start, I don't ever recall Tory policy of the day being to spend way more than we earn and leave the country in a financial mess

Here you go, Tories were promising to match Labour's spending as late as 2007.

A promise to match public spending three years before taking power is a long, long way from - as you claimed above - 'exactly the same economic policies'. Unless of course you believe that economic policy only consists of public spending - which would be a very left wing thing to do

I can point to many obvious differences in policies - like personal and corporate tax rates - which make nonsense of your claim.

OK, maybe not exactly the same policies. I've been under a lot of emotional stress these past 2 weeks and I don't read and re-read all of my posts to make sure they are 100% accurate, but the policies were similar enough to be able to say that whichever party was in power we would have had the same mess.

Stevo_666

johnfinch wrote:

OK, maybe not exactly the same policies. I've been under a lot of emotional stress these past 2 weeks and I don't read and re-read all of my posts to make sure they are 100% accurate, but the policies were similar enough to be able to say that whichever party was in power we would have had the same mess.

Finchy, I think you know me well enough to realise that I'll argue hard on stuff that I feel strongly about and have a reasonably well informed view on. But it's not personal and I'm not going to twist the knife when you've clearly got more important things to deal with.

Suggest we both let this one drop and fight another day when you're in the mood for it, eh?