Own Goal for the Tories

finchy

Stevo 666 wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

Rick, you'll have to forgive Stevo. As a downhill mountain biker, the only thing he understands is a race to the bottom.

I've been waiting to use that joke for ages now

You're such a wit finchy Now have a look at some of the facts about economic growth, job creation, low inflation and wage growth. It probably makes for uncomfortable reading for any leftie close to a general election, but let's not do Britain down when we are doing well

Wage growth is higher than inflation at the moment. That's against the backdrop of a MASSIVE fall in oil price over the past year. Good news, but again, one of those things which I don't believe to be sustainable.

Anyway, as I said on the General Election thread, I believe that this election or the next will be a bad one to win. The thing is, I'm in a bit of a quandary. I'd like to see the Tories win so that the next time the SHTF (and it will. Economic cycles don't just stop according to which party is in power) your mates will be in government and get the blame, but on the other hand I want them out before my boy gets to secondary school age. You see, all the secondary schools around here have converted to academy status, with dismal results (and I've tutored in 3 of the 4, so I can see just how bad they are). They are now able to employ anybody they feel like as a teacher. No need for qualifications, training or experience, the schools can just employ teachers on the cheap. In the worst example, the teaching assistants end up teaching classes on a regular basis, rather than getting proper supply teachers in for cover. I don't want this for my boys. In fact, if the situation hasn't changed by the time they get there, my wife and I have decided to leave England if the boys don't get into grammar school. We simply can't face the idea of having them taught in one of the local secondaries. That's the main reason I'd like the Tories booted out. Labour might not be much better, but at least there's a chance of some positive change with them in charge.

ballysmate

and I've tutored in 3 of the 4, so I can see just how bad they are)

Very noble of you to take your share of the blame.

mamba80

You ve deftly skipped the rich list point, an 8 fold increase in there?

fwiw, i like miss sturgeon, a real conviction politician.

as i said, how can one of the richest nations in the world really be in such an economic mess? we certainly dont seem to have any trouble attracting the super rich to the UK, why is that? and why has the so called trickle down effect not happened?
the libCon coalition, means that the tories never really implemented their agenda and yet, we are, according to Stevo, on the cusp of an economic boom? if he is correct, why is that? maybe extreme right wing policies are actually bad for the UK and little dose of liberalism ie left wing economics, good for the economy?

i am no card carrying socialist but i see great unfairness in this country and extremely rich people who could never spend their fortune if they lived to 500 and yet the moment anyone says they should pay a little more, its suddenly wrong but its perfectly ok to pay careers a pittance, cut benefits to the disabled, to allow corporations to pay a non living wage, whilst making huge profits (and in a nice socialist way, expect the tax payer to make up the difference!!) for the sick to sometimes die waiting for treatment, to give our kids a crxp education but so long as we pander to the super wealthy, thats ok.
Meanwhile of course, the rich can buy their out out of all of this, using private schooling, health and nursing care, oh and getting a nice socialist subsidy on their kids schooling by means of the charitable status afforded to private schools, you couldnt make it up.

rick_chasey

Stevo 666 wrote:

And what a great fact that is - that the UK is such a good place for entrepreneurs to come to, be successful, create jobs and wealth and tax revenues (which I have already demonstrated are rising, despite the recent cuts in income tax and corporate tax rates). Thanks for pointing that out.

You make things better for people by attracting business and investment, not just trying to extract ever larger amounts from the wealth creators because that ultimately has a counterproductive effect. I can show you the HMRC survey on the impact of the 50% rate if you want? (Which was naff all).

http://www.factandmyth.com/taxes/tax-de ... se-revenue

Stevo_666

Rick Chasey wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

And what a great fact that is - that the UK is such a good place for entrepreneurs to come to, be successful, create jobs and wealth and tax revenues (which I have already demonstrated are rising, despite the recent cuts in income tax and corporate tax rates). Thanks for pointing that out.

You make things better for people by attracting business and investment, not just trying to extract ever larger amounts from the wealth creators because that ultimately has a counterproductive effect. I can show you the HMRC survey on the impact of the 50% rate if you want? (Which was naff all).

http://www.factandmyth.com/taxes/tax-de ... se-revenue

Disagree. That is generic stuff from a US website that appears to have an agenda similar to yours.

Here are the facts related to the specific case I mentioned - the 50p rate rise - according to a study done by HMRC, so not from a biased source:
http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20140109143644/http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/budget2012/excheq-income-tax-2042.pdf

Summarised here in case it's TL:DR
https://fullfact.org/articles/top_rate_tax_50p_Treasury_revenue-27956
The answer is naff all in a national perspective and possibly negative because it is difficult to quantify part of what tax revenue was lost (e.g. decisions not to invest in/locate to the UK due to the high rate).

rick_chasey

Oxford economics professor's take on the recovery under current gov't:

http://mainlymacro.blogspot.in/2015/04/ ... ction.html

This cover-up is only part of the story. What I call ‘mediamacro’ continues to portray the economy as the Coalition’s strong card, yet all the data suggests this has been the worst recovery on record, with an unprecedented failure of living standards to rise. The combination of supposed competence and terrible outturns can only be sustained through a series of interlinked macroeconomic myths. Mediamacro - and particularly the political commentators who either perpetuate or fail to challenge these myths - have created an alternative reality, where a return to average growth rates during what should be a recovery period is treated as a triumph, and where stagnant productivity is either ignored or celebrated (by praising rapid employment growth).

ballysmate

Rick Chasey wrote:

Oxford economics professor's take on the recovery under current gov't:

http://mainlymacro.blogspot.in/2015/04/ ... ction.html

This cover-up is only part of the story. What I call ‘mediamacro’ continues to portray the economy as the Coalition’s strong card, yet all the data suggests this has been the worst recovery on record, with an unprecedented failure of living standards to rise. The combination of supposed competence and terrible outturns can only be sustained through a series of interlinked macroeconomic myths. Mediamacro - and particularly the political commentators who either perpetuate or fail to challenge these myths - have created an alternative reality, where a return to average growth rates during what should be a recovery period is treated as a triumph, and where stagnant productivity is either ignored or celebrated (by praising rapid employment growth).

I suppose it's a long winded way of repeating the old mantra of blaming th "Tory Press" :roll:

rick_chasey

Not really.

It's something I've heard other economists say.

Labour are just as guilty at pedalling the same line. As are lib dems, ukip etc.

RideOnTime

oh, bog off...

Stevo_666

RideOnTime wrote:

oh, bog off...

You'll need to vote then. I sent my postal vote off this morning, I've heard enough

RideOnTime

He's still banging on about that letter.

Is there nothing else in the hat.

I'm worried that the Lib Dems will be wiped out - no chance of a sensible coalition... :shock: :shock: :shock:

finchy

RideOnTime wrote:

He's still banging on about that letter.

Is there nothing else in the hat.

I'm worried that the Lib Dems will be wiped out - no chance of a sensible coalition... :shock: :shock: :shock:

Now that the BBC has reported on the letters written in support of the Tories (even though the second one was found to be written by Tory HQ and then signed by Conservative members/supporters), but didn't give coverage to the doctors' letter saying that a Conservative government would be a disaster for the NHS, can the Tories please, finally, stop going on about the imagined BBC left-wing bias?

Stevo_666

RideOnTime wrote:

He's still banging on about that letter.

Is there nothing else in the hat.

I'm worried that the Lib Dems will be wiped out - no chance of a sensible coalition... :shock: :shock: :shock:

To be fair to the Lib Dems, they have been part of a working coalition for 5 years and given the massively remote odds on either major party getting an outright majority, there is no other party that the Tories could or would go into coalition with and get a vaguely sensible outcome. Any other likely combination (i.e. Labour plus one or more other part/parties) will be a disaster IMO.

RideOnTime

I think Cameron needs to be kept away from the cameras. Last nights PP Broadcast was pathetic. We have no ideas, whatsoever, basically that's it vote Tory or Labour will F@ck the country over. But yes David vote Tory for what... what is the point you don't believe in the public sector and public services or the NHS, so why don't you just get a £2mk job in a corporate bank... and do one...

mamba80

RideOnTime wrote:

I think Cameron needs to be kept away from the cameras....

he just needs to be kept away full stop, he is the most nauseating politician ever to grace our parliament.

Guess who i am NOT voting for

bompington

mamba80 wrote:

RideOnTime wrote:

I think Cameron needs to be kept away from the cameras....

he just needs to be kept away full stop, he is the most nauseating politician ever to grace our parliament.

Guess who i am NOT voting for

..and there you have the problem with political discourse in this country, in a nutshell. Forget policies, principles, ideas: all you need to do is focus on visceral antipathy (aka tribalism) and throw in a good measure of absurd hyperbole to top it off.

mamba80

bompington wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

RideOnTime wrote:

I think Cameron needs to be kept away from the cameras....

he just needs to be kept away full stop, he is the most nauseating politician ever to grace our parliament.

Guess who i am NOT voting for

..and there you have the problem with political discourse in this country, in a nutshell. Forget policies, principles, ideas: all you need to do is focus on visceral antipathy (aka tribalism) and throw in a good measure of absurd hyperbole to top it off.

ha ha so its the voters fault now is it? if cameron had any polices, principles or ideas... other than rolling out his poor sons plight whenever challenged on the NHS.......

bompington

mamba80 wrote:

if cameron had any polices, principles or ideas

He does, and you know it, and so does everyone. This is my point. His policies may not be sensible or his ideas well worked out, his principles may be wrong, evil even, and of course you may disagree with them all.
So tell us what is wrong with them instead of the lazy option of throwing playground insults. You and every bleeding politician in the country.

RideOnTime

mamba80 wrote:

bompington wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

RideOnTime wrote:

I think Cameron needs to be kept away from the cameras....

he just needs to be kept away full stop, he is the most nauseating politician ever to grace our parliament.

Guess who i am NOT voting for

..and there you have the problem with political discourse in this country, in a nutshell. Forget policies, principles, ideas: all you need to do is focus on visceral antipathy (aka tribalism) and throw in a good measure of absurd hyperbole to top it off.

ha ha so its the voters fault now is it? if cameron had any polices, principles or ideas... other than rolling out his poor sons plight whenever challenged on the NHS.......

Yes that's one of his less than favourable lines makes me cringe.... Farage is the same trotting out how much he's used the NHS and how much he values it...

Stevo_666

bompington wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

if cameron had any polices, principles or ideas

He does, and you know it, and so does everyone. This is my point. His policies may not be sensible or his ideas well worked out, his principles may be wrong, evil even, and of course you may disagree with them all.
So tell us what is wrong with them instead of the lazy option of throwing playground insults. You and every bleeding politician in the country.

Or even better - they should tell us how they would do it if they were in charge. Not so easy, that.

mamba80

Stevo 666 wrote:

bompington wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

if cameron had any polices, principles or ideas

He does, and you know it, and so does everyone. This is my point. His policies may not be sensible or his ideas well worked out, his principles may be wrong, evil even, and of course you may disagree with them all.
So tell us what is wrong with them instead of the lazy option of throwing playground insults. You and every bleeding politician in the country.

Or even better - they should tell us how they would do it if they were in charge. Not so easy, that.

i am not setting myself up as suitable PM material, so its up to Cameron and the others to demonstrate why they deem themselves to be thus.
Cameron has said he needs 12bn of cuts yet cannot say where he will cut, therefore he has no public policy, he has no principle because he uses his dead son to stem debate on the nhs and he, from what i can see, has no ideas, preferring to rubbish the opposition rather than say what he will do.

diy

I know its not very PC, but the issue with the NHS is demand, not supply. We are growing at a fairly massive rate, we are living longer and importing huge numbers of unhealthy people.

Stevo_666

mamba80 wrote:

i am not setting myself up as suitable PM material, so its up to Cameron and the others to demonstrate why they deem themselves to be thus.
Cameron has said he needs 12bn of cuts yet cannot say where he will cut, therefore he has no public policy, he has no principle because he uses his dead son to stem debate on the nhs and he, from what i can see, has no ideas, preferring to rubbish the opposition rather than say what he will do.

So who is putting forward the good ideas? The ones that you will vote for?

rick_chasey

diy wrote:

I know its not very PC, but the issue with the NHS is demand, not supply. We are growing at a fairly massive rate, we are living longer and importing huge numbers of unhealthy people.

Vast majority of immigrants contribute more than they consume because, unsurprisingly, the majority come to the UK for work. Usually get educated elsewhere, come to the UK to earn (and thus pay tax).

Living longer and rising cost of care is the only noticeable driver.

pblakeney

Where did that own goal go?

chris_bass

PBlakeney wrote:

Where did that own goal go?

I think it was at villa, could have been West ham though.

Stevo_666

Rick Chasey wrote:

More likely to be in govt than Tories....

Rick, maybe it's time for you to join Paddy Pantsdown in a spot of hat eating

Stevo_666

mamba80 wrote:

bompington wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

More likely to be in govt than Tories....

Naturally. If you're prepared to get into bed with anyone, you're obviously increasing your chances...

well, the Tories certainly were and now it looks like they ll come a begging to the ULster lot this time 'round.

Really?

RideOnTime

PBlakeney wrote:

Where did that own goal go?

Don't rub salt into bitter, bitter wounds.

If you voted for 'em you got 'em. You got 'em with a majority. We'll be Little England out of the Union and out of Europe in the blink of an eye. Wearing black starched clothes, riding horses and scrambling around in the dirt.

ballysmate

RideOnTime wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Where did that own goal go?

Don't rub salt into bitter, bitter wounds.

If you voted for 'em you got 'em. You got 'em with a majority. We'll be Little England out of the Union and out of Europe in the blink of an eye. Wearing black starched clothes, riding horses and scrambling around in the dirt.

Out of the Union? Cameron can't do that, no politician can. Only the people can do that via another referendum. Even if it was within his gift, why should we down in England vote in a dreadful socialist government just so that our Scots brothers would stay? If they want to go, it is their choice.
Out of Europe? Again not in Cameron's power. The people will decide yea or nay. No idea how that vote will go, not even certain which way I'd vote. We will have to wait to see what is presented.