Own Goal for the Tories

Stevo_666

Rick Chasey wrote:

So what was Stevo saying about businesses loving the tories?

Not so bowled over having heard the manifesto. 'Lukewarm' is the standard response.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/468eba56-e2b5 ... z3XBKucKZT

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/econ ... ction.html

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... g-business

Not sure anyone is bowled over by the Lib Dems manifesto if your share of the vote is anything to go by (sourced from the sandal wearing rag of choice to avoid claims of bias):
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/apr/13/conservatives-six-point-lead-guardian-icm-poll-labour

Wonder if the Lib Dems are looking forward to returning to their traditional role as the 'Roger Irrelevant' of politics?

rick_chasey

More likely to be in govt than Tories....

bompington

Rick Chasey wrote:

More likely to be in govt than Tories....

Naturally. If you're prepared to get into bed with anyone, you're obviously increasing your chances...

mamba80

bompington wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

More likely to be in govt than Tories....

Naturally. If you're prepared to get into bed with anyone, you're obviously increasing your chances...

well, the Tories certainly were and now it looks like they ll come a begging to the ULster lot this time 'round.

finchy

The last time the Tories sold off loads of social housing has had such wonderful long-term effects that they've decided to do it again. I wonder if the public will be as fooled by this as they were in the 1980s.

Even the Torygraph thinks it's a terrible idea.

mamba80

we need social housing, for the disabled, mentally ill, people who just cant cope with life or we go back to the poor house..oh hang on, that was in the Tory manifesto.....

and anyway, what about all the people stuck in private rented? do they get the chance to buy their own home... no thought not.

i dislike like everything about the Tories, they deserted one nation conservatism decades ago and are now the party of the wealthy and why anyone who really needs to work for a living would vote for them is beyond me, they ll always screw you in favour of the rich and now, they cant even bring themselves to properly fund our defence forces.

RideOnTime

http://www.exposingnigel.uk/

This is quite entertaining. Trending on Twitter.

Stevo_666

bompington wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

More likely to be in govt than Tories....

Naturally. If you're prepared to get into bed with anyone, you're obviously increasing your chances...

They don't really have any choice.

RideOnTime

Stevo 666 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

So what was Stevo saying about businesses loving the tories?

Not so bowled over having heard the manifesto. 'Lukewarm' is the standard response.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/468eba56-e2b5 ... z3XBKucKZT

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/econ ... ction.html

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... g-business

Not sure anyone is bowled over by the Lib Dems manifesto if your share of the vote is anything to go by (sourced from the sandal wearing rag of choice to avoid claims of bias):
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/apr/13/conservatives-six-point-lead-guardian-icm-poll-labour

Wonder if the Lib Dems are looking forward to returning to their traditional role as the 'Roger Irrelevant' of politics?

You have to agree though that sandals are great for the summer.

Stevo_666

More good news for the Tories. Unemployment has just dropped to a record low. At the same time, the German finance minister Wolfganf Schauble has been quoted as saying 'The UK has done a very good job in the last few years and Osbourne has a very good plan for the future.' Some praise coming from a senior minister in a country often held up by the left of centre on here as the model of European economic success

finchy

Stevo 666 wrote:

Unemployment has just dropped to a record low.

Well, I suppose it has if your records only stretch back to 2008.

Stevo 666 wrote:

At the same time, the German finance minister Wolfganf Schauble has been quoted as saying 'The UK has done a very good job in the last few years and Osbourne has a very good plan for the future.' Some praise coming from a senior minister in a country often held up by the left of centre on here as the model of European economic success

German conservative supports British Conservatives shock. :roll:

Stevo_666

johnfinch wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Unemployment has just dropped to a record low.

Well, I suppose it has if your records only stretch back to 2008.

Stevo 666 wrote:

At the same time, the German finance minister Wolfgang Schauble has been quoted as saying 'The UK has done a very good job in the last few years and Osbourne has a very good plan for the future.' Some praise coming from a senior minister in a country often held up by the left of centre on here as the model of European economic success

German conservative supports British Conservatives shock. :roll:

Whichever way you try to look at it, falling unemployment is good - and it has been falling for some time. Add that to strong economic growth and inflation under control, plus real bouyancy and optimism that I see in the corporate sector: all good evidence that Tory policy is working.

As for Mr. Schauble? Seems to be a case of a conservative party running a successful european economy? Seems to be a pattern emerging here

mamba80

for the individual, falling unemployment is fantastic but i would like to look at the wages of these jobs, as i ve said before, if these people are now claiming more in working benefits than they were in non working benefits. it may not be the panacea you think.
ha ha ! Schauble is a fan of increased EU integration, indeed federalisation, believes immigration is good for Germany, that the UK should join the euro and Britians continued membership is good for Germany..... sound like a uk conservative???

Germany is run by a very fractured coalition of both right and left wing parties.

NeXXus

Yes but, has unemployment actually fell or are the stats being skewed by kicking people off benefits and into unpaid slave labour masquerading as "jobs"

Unemployment is reportedly down substantially in my town even with the biggest employer locally slashing many hundreds of jobs.

Stevo_666

mamba80 wrote:

for the individual, falling unemployment is fantastic but i would like to look at the wages of these jobs, as i ve said before, if these people are now claiming more in working benefits than they were in non working benefits. it may not be the panacea you think.
ha ha ! Schauble is a fan of increased EU integration, indeed federalisation, believes immigration is good for Germany, that the UK should join the euro and Britians continued membership is good for Germany..... sound like a uk conservative???

Germany is run by a very fractured coalition of both right and left wing parties.

He was commenting on Tory economic policy. And he is the guy in charge of German economic policy, no? If he isn't really a conservative then that's even more of a compliment

Stevo_666

NeXXus wrote:

Yes but, has unemployment actually fell or are the stats being skewed by kicking people off benefits and into unpaid slave labour masquerading as "jobs"

Unemployment is reportedly down substantially in my town even with the biggest employer locally slashing many hundreds of jobs.

Evidence for your first statement please?

Re your second point, the overall trend is down and has been for some time. There will always be local variations, but overall the medicine is working...

pinno

Well get those Tories to stop zero contract hours, the rise of part-time employment which pays zilch and rely on people receiving Working Tax Benefits/Housing benefit thereby contributing £0 to the tax pool.
Sort out the housing shortage. Fix the North South divide. Stop the back door privatisation of the NHS. Stop meddling with the Education system to suit political ends and provide one for the long term needs of the UK's future.
I am not saying Labour is capable of all that but the Tories will never do it. The SNP will be making decisions in a coalition with Millibland on your behalf and out of your control. He hee, live with it. Scotland ruling England, what a thought. What a f*cking mess caused by years of political apathy with no-one willing to make really hard long term decisions coupled with a Murdoch lead media driving public opinion (and no-one had the bollox to punish them for their shenanigans).

Stevo_666

pinarello001 wrote:

Well get those Tories to stop zero contract hours, the rise of part-time employment which pays zilch and rely on people receiving Working Tax Benefits/Housing benefit thereby contributing £0 to the tax pool.
Sort out the housing shortage. Fix the North South divide. Stop the back door privatisation of the NHS. Stop meddling with the Education system to suit political ends and provide one for the long term needs of the UK's future.
I am not saying Labour is capable of all that but the Tories will never do it. The SNP will be making decisions in a coalition with Millibland on your behalf and out of your control. He hee, live with it. Scotland ruling England, what a thought. What a f*cking mess caused by years of political apathy with no-one willing to make really hard long term decisions coupled with a Murdoch lead media driving public opinion (and no-one had the bollox to punish them for their shenanigans).

Regardless of what you think are laudable aims, if you can't manage the economy so that it can be funded, all this stuff is irrelevant as they will just run out of money to do it. Labour have shown on more than one occasion that they are incapable of doing that and we are now faced with a Labour party more left wing than it has been in a long time.

If a Miliband/SNP/other minor leftiebollox party coalition gets in it will only last as long as the next economic crisis which will inevitably ensue. It is a worrying prospect - as Boris said very recently, Milipede is theoretical socialist who thinks that the biggest problem with socialism is that it has never been given a proper chance. If we give him a chance we're screwed. The economy is motoring and things are getting noticeably better: let's not mess it up now.

I suppose I should look on the bright side. If he does get in, demand for the likes of me will go through the bloody roof. Supply and demand has its upsides

Frank the tank

Given that both the tories and labour are neck and neck in opinion polls who would the tories cosy up to?

Labour are not left of centre enough.

As for being better off, that depends totally on the social/financial demograph you are in.

Unemployment would be zero if we were all prepared to work for nowt, apparently some people are and a lot for not enough to even warrant paying tax. that's one reason why tax revenues are falling. Well folk working for next to nowt is all very well for their employers but not very good for the economy What is needed is investment in manufacturing and in developing a skilled workforce on proper money. High skill/ high wage economy is the way forward if the nation is to genuinely thrive.

mamba80

Stevo 666 wrote:

The economy is motoring and things are getting noticeably better: let's not mess it up now.

For whom? i dont see it and no one i know does either, and that includes professions as diverse at teachers, nurses, builders, shop workers and me, in IT.

what i do see is that the v wealthy have continued to buy more property, send their kids to private schools and support the private health and leisure sectors, whilst also bucking the trend and earning more than ever before :roll:

finchy

The CDU and the (modern) British Tory party, despite both being conservative, just cannot be compared.

The CDU support state intervention (rent control) in the housing market, meaning that houses are affordable to rent and buy, whereas the Tories simply want to get rid of social housing.

The CDU would never dream of letting untrained, unqualified teachers get jobs in the German state school system, unlike the Tories.

The CDU would try to undermine action taken to prevent neonicotinoids wiping out bee populations unlike the Tories.

The CDU would not appoint a climate change denier who won't even listen to the scientist as Secretary of State for the Environment.

I've got nothing against one nation conservatives and moderate continental conservatives, it's the neo-liberal cretins that come to power in Britain and other anglosphere countries that I can't stand.

Yes, falling unemployment is good, but it's part of an economic cycle. Look at any graph of unemployment history in Britain. Unemployment falls and rises under Labour, unemployment falls and rises under the Tories. IMO, the problem isn't who's in government, the problem is the economic consensus and the centre of economic power in the country, and that's not going to change. During the last economic boom the wealthy and powerful got wealthier and more powerful, and during the bust... exactly the same, this time using taxpayer bailouts. So who is going to stand up to the mega-powerful vested interests who do so well out of our unequal economy? Nobody. Not Labour, not the Tories, not the Lib Dems and certainly not UKIP.

At the start of the recession I saw an interview with Ken Clarke. Talking about the crisis, he was asked whether British economics would change forever. He said no, we'd make a few changes now, then in 50 or 60 years time, we'd forget the lessons we have learnt, just as from the 1980s to 2000s we forgot all about the lessons of the 1920s and go back to massive deregulation. Well, in a way he was wrong. We haven't made the necessary changes now. On the economic front, I really don't care who wins the election. I can't see anything other than long-term bust for this country and indebtedness for its people.

rick_chasey

It is very good news that unemployment is low.

The UK, as you would expect with more liberal labour laws, has a more flexible labour force who have been able to reduce their earnings per hour in order to keep their work - with plenty more working part time or 'zero' hour.

What would be good is an improvement in productivity.... That impacts average joe a lot more.

finchy

Rick, you'll have to forgive Stevo. As a downhill mountain biker, the only thing he understands is a race to the bottom.

I've been waiting to use that joke for ages now

Stevo_666

mamba80 wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

The economy is motoring and things are getting noticeably better: let's not mess it up now.

For whom? i dont see it and no one i know does either, and that includes professions as diverse at teachers, nurses, builders, shop workers and me, in IT.

what i do see is that the v wealthy have continued to buy more property, send their kids to private schools and support the private health and leisure sectors, whilst also bucking the trend and earning more than ever before :roll:

From the EY ITEM Club survey out recently:
- Economy expected to grow by 2.8% in 2015, rising to 3% in 2016 (2014 growth was 2.8%).
- Inflation near zero
- Pay growth forecast to be 2.1% in 2015 and 2.4% in 2016. So decent increases in real spending power after taking inflation into account.

Total unemployment has fallen by around 700,000 since the time that The Tories took power, with a similar reduction in theose on the jobseekers allowance.

I could offer anecdotal evidence of my own experience in work and of people I have contact with in other businesses which is positive. Clearly not everyone benefits but my own experience is it is not simply the rich who are benefitting. I am expanding my department by 10% this year - new jobs and not badly paid.

Another quote from the link below fyi:
"The conventional explanations, that all the new jobs are going to foreigners or are insecure part time jobs, are not backed up by the stats."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-32348353

Stevo_666

Frank the tank wrote:

Unemployment would be zero if we were all prepared to work for nowt, apparently some people are and a lot for not enough to even warrant paying tax. that's one reason why tax revenues are falling. Well folk working for next to nowt is all very well for their employers but not very good for the economy What is needed is investment in manufacturing and in developing a skilled workforce on proper money. High skill/ high wage economy is the way forward if the nation is to genuinely thrive.

Tax revenues are not falling:
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/hmrc-tax-and-nics-receipts-for-the-uk

See also the findings I mentioned above regarding the new jobs being created and real wage rises. Now stop talking down the success story of the UK economy Frank

Stevo_666

johnfinch wrote:

Rick, you'll have to forgive Stevo. As a downhill mountain biker, the only thing he understands is a race to the bottom.

I've been waiting to use that joke for ages now

You're such a wit finchy Now have a look at some of the facts about economic growth, job creation, low inflation and wage growth. It probably makes for uncomfortable reading for any leftie close to a general election, but let's not do Britain down when we are doing well

mamba80

The point is stevo, the eco boom (if it exists, outside of the v wealthy) is very limited in who and where it benefits, once you are outside of the SE.

the economy is always what wins elections and so far the Tories are struggling to convince the electorate that they are the ones to put £s in peoples pockets, so they ve resorted to bribery, lloyds shares, inheritance tax cuts and OAP benefit increases.
whilst refusing to say where the next round of cuts will fall.

We are apparently, still one of the richest nations on earth, yet we have no money for a decent health service, education system and councils have no money to fill pot holes, let alone make long term repairs and rebuilds.

In 1990 you needed 50m to make the Times 200 rich list, now it is 430m, meanwhile the gap between the rich and rest of us continues to grow and perhaps finally people are waking up to this, and that is Camerons problem.
You always bring up this left v right thing but your wrong, its between what is good for a country and what is bad and long term, what is happening in the UK is unsustainable, when the gap between rich and poor becomes too big, everyone suffers.

Stevo_666

mamba80 wrote:

The point is stevo, the eco boom (if it exists, outside of the v wealthy) is very limited in who and where it benefits, once you are outside of the SE.

the economy is always what wins elections and so far the Tories are struggling to convince the electorate that they are the ones to put £s in peoples pockets, so they ve resorted to bribery, lloyds shares, inheritance tax cuts and OAP benefit increases.
whilst refusing to say where the next round of cuts will fall.

We are apparently, still one of the richest nations on earth, yet we have no money for a decent health service, education system and councils have no money to fill pot holes, let alone make long term repairs and rebuilds.

In 1990 you needed 50m to make the Times 200 rich list, now it is 430m, meanwhile the gap between the rich and rest of us continues to grow and perhaps finally people are waking up to this, and that is Camerons problem.
You always bring up this left v right thing but your wrong, its between what is good for a country and what is bad and long term, what is happening in the UK is unsustainable, when the gap between rich and poor becomes too big, everyone suffers.

Apart from the 'Rich List' number, I see no facts there, just your opinions.

And what a great fact that is - that the UK is such a good place for entrepreneurs to come to, be successful, create jobs and wealth and tax revenues (which I have already demonstrated are rising, despite the recent cuts in income tax and corporate tax rates). Thanks for pointing that out.

You make things better for people by attracting business and investment, not just trying to extract ever larger amounts from the wealth creators because that ultimately has a counterproductive effect. I can show you the HMRC survey on the impact of the 50% rate if you want? (Which was naff all).

ballysmate

mamba80 wrote:

The point is stevo, the eco boom (if it exists, outside of the v wealthy) is very limited in who and where it benefits, once you are outside of the SE.

the economy is always what wins elections and so far the Tories are struggling to convince the electorate that they are the ones to put £s in peoples pockets, so they ve resorted to bribery, lloyds shares, inheritance tax cuts and OAP benefit increases.
whilst refusing to say where the next round of cuts will fall.

We are apparently, still one of the richest nations on earth, yet we have no money for a decent health service, education system and councils have no money to fill pot holes, let alone make long term repairs and rebuilds.

In 1990 you needed 50m to make the Times 200 rich list, now it is 430m, meanwhile the gap between the rich and rest of us continues to grow and perhaps finally people are waking up to this, and that is Camerons problem.
You always bring up this left v right thing but your wrong, its between what is good for a country and what is bad and long term, what is happening in the UK is unsustainable, when the gap between rich and poor becomes too big, everyone suffers.

After the last debacle which was a Labour administration, Mervyn King said that whoever won the 2010 election would make themselves so unpopular and unelectable for 20 years due to the measures they would need to take. So for the Tories to be in with a shout, they haven't done too badly.
It would almost be worth it to see a minority Labour government propped up by the toxic SNP. When the economy goes to ratshit, which it undoubtedly would, perhaps the Labour party would be cast to the wilderness where it belongs. Short term pain for long term gain. Almost.
Socialists can't grasp the basic tenet that you have to make money before you can spend it.
Do you really think that the Labour party is going to put any sort of money in people's pockets? First time for everything I suppose.

Frank the tank

Where would you sooner live, scandinavia or India?

For me, the former. The wealthy are happy to pay a decent amount of tax in order to sustain decent public services and general well being of the populous. India on the other hand!

We in the GB (or the tories at least) seem to believe that the way forward is to make the wealthy even more so and the have nots..... well, it's their own fault.

Massive disparities in the wealth of a nation is not good. The capitalists in the GB have a different outlook to capitalists in the scandinavian nations. Our captains of industry are totally all for themselves and f**k ev