Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

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  • -BJL--BJL- Posts: 3
    timothyw wrote:
    The comments above dont make much sense. measure to be sure but I suspect theres nothing wrong.
    To be clear, I don't think anything is wrong either - I think with another couple of rides brake wear the pattern will disappear as the last of the black coating is worn off.

    Certainly I don't think they're unsafe.

    And on that same note, I'm not saying there's anything wrong or unsafe here either. Just that it's prudent to keep an eye on it.

    This has also attracted my attention as I have a brand new wheelset with Archetype rims (also 32 spoke) sitting literally 2 feet away from me as I type as I've been riding my spare OEM wheelset over winter (Australia). Mine are polished silver so I wouldn't notice this but I'll keep an eye on mine over the next couple of years and try (to remember) to keep you all updated. Just in case H+Sons have had a bad batch of rims. The more people with these rims that comment good or bad, the better the picture we get. This is the first time I've heard of this issue with Archetype rims.
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,874
    It's not an issue though. Mountains are being made out of not even mile hills.

    I see this all the time. A rider sees something they don't understand and immediately they start thinking if all the reasons it could be. The reasons though are the most unlikely due to being the most complex.

    If it round and straight then there is no issue.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • -BJL--BJL- Posts: 3
    It's not an issue though. Mountains are being made out of not even mile hills.

    I see this all the time. A rider sees something they don't understand and immediately they start thinking if all the reasons it could be. The reasons though are the most unlikely due to being the most complex.

    If it round and straight then there is no issue.

    Okay then, I only commented based on my own experiences.

    And yes, you'll see there is a crack at one of the spoke holes. But the spoke tensions weren't that high. In fact, in order to dish the rim properly, the non drive spokes had to be almost detensioned, and spokes were coming loose during rides. And I could turn the nipples BY HAND. Turns out the spokes were too long. That's my fault for not measuring the ERD properly and letting LBS baby me. I'm just saying if you get markings like this, keep an eye on it. Don't be surprised if the OP comes back in a few months with cracked rims. But hopefully they don't.

    As I said earlier, Velocity had 'issues' with its rims around that time but any sort of rim deformation should be monitored.

    God only knows why I can't get the img tags to work but here's the link. :(

    (Okay, figured it out)

    fA3JC9o.jpg
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,874
    That's a crack though not related in any way to the way the brake thrack has worn. you are linking things that are not linked. Thats the issue here.

    Again riders see something they dont understand and come to conclusion based on assumptions and links they make without asking are these reasonable. Actually this happens because were are human.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • New to this forum and I'm only here for advise on a pair of wheels I intend to have built. I'm pretty sure I've done enough reading to have the basics down so here goes...
    I plan on having a pair of H+ Son Archetypes built up for the road bike. Few questions:

    1) Will a 20/24 spoke count work for me? I'm 170lbs and just ride casually, mostly just the weekends. Up hills, sometimes off the saddle. No plans of racing with the wheels. What lacing would accommodate this? What spoke length would work?
    2) The wheel builder offers the Novatec A271SB/F372SB. With a little more cash I could get the Bitex RAF13/RAR13 or the Novatec A291SB/F482SB. Will the extra splash be worth the upgrade?

    The advise would be much appreciated.
  • dgranada wrote:

    1) Will a 20/24 spoke count work for me? I'm 170lbs

    No...
  • dgranada wrote:

    1) Will a 20/24 spoke count work for me? I'm 170lbs

    No...


    What do you suggest?
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,874
    edited October 2018
    These rims in this spoke count only a page or two back where used by someone else if your weight. Spokes failed. I would echo ugo here somely no.

    First of all rims. The archetype rim is not that stiff. 28 spokes are needed for the rear with Sapim race or equivalents to provide a genuinely reliable wheel.

    The novatec hubs are o.k but that's it. The a271/f362 are nothing special. The a291/f482 hubs I no longer build with as bearings can and do fail quickly for the
    Rear hub. The front hub is normally fine. The bitex Rar12/RAF12 is a hub I use sometimes. Much more reliable than the light weight novatec. I guess bitex have got the tollerances in the axle shoulders right.

    If you are using a low spoke count pick a deeper rim but also one that's not v shaped. It's the v that the problem and v rims are not very stiff at all.

    Rims that work in order of suitability left to right. Right being more suitable.

    Pacenti Forza (it's a rounded profile but use Sapim race spokes or DT comps please), Ambrosio P20 ( 27mm deep but again Sapim race is a good idea), DT Swiss RR511 ( I'm not a fan but don't let that stop you using it) or the Kinlin XR31T. The last rim is 31mm deep 24mm eide, same weight as the archetype and if built with stiff spokes will provide you with a stiff reliable and a wonderfully ride. It's also an aero rim so you could even justify aero spokes but I think the rim benefits from stiffer spokes rear to limit or remove brake rub. Brake rub happens with stiff rims not sufficiently supported by spokes.

    I have started to write a detailed guide to wheel building which is generic. It will take a while but will summarise everything in this thread and get quite technical. It will cover the anatomy of hubs, hub geometry, rim selection lacing patterns. Brand recommendations are not given neither that's not the point. It will take a while to write. When it's done it will be posted here after it's been proof read.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • mrb123mrb123 Posts: 2,152
    dgranada wrote:
    New to this forum and I'm only here for advise on a pair of wheels I intend to have built. I'm pretty sure I've done enough reading to have the basics down so here goes...
    I plan on having a pair of H+ Son Archetypes built up for the road bike. Few questions:

    1) Will a 20/24 spoke count work for me? I'm 170lbs and just ride casually, mostly just the weekends. Up hills, sometimes off the saddle. No plans of racing with the wheels. What lacing would accommodate this? What spoke length would work?
    2) The wheel builder offers the Novatec A271SB/F372SB. With a little more cash I could get the Bitex RAF13/RAR13 or the Novatec A291SB/F482SB. Will the extra splash be worth the upgrade?

    The advise would be much appreciated.

    I'm a similar weight to you. 24/28 spokes have been good for me with the Bitex hubs (brass nips, D-lights).
  • These rims in this spoke count only a page or two back where used by someone else if your weight. Spokes failed. I would echo ugo here somely no.

    First of all rims. The archetype rim is not that stiff. 28 spokes are needed for the rear with Sapim race or equivalents to provide a genuinely reliable wheel.

    The novatec hubs are o.k but that's it. The a271/f362 are nothing special. The a291/f482 hubs I no longer build with as bearings can and do fail quickly for the
    Rear hub. The front hub is normally fine. The bitex Rar12/RAF12 is a hub I use sometimes. Much more reliable than the light weight novatec. I guess bitex have got the tollerances in the axle shoulders right.

    If you are using a low spoke count pick a deeper rim but also one that's not v shaped. It's the v that the problem and v rims are not very stiff at all.

    Rims that work in order of suitability left to right. Right being more suitable.

    Pacenti Forza (it's a rounded profile but use Sapim race spokes or DT comps please), Ambrosio P20 ( 27mm deep but again Sapim race is a good idea), DT Swiss RR511 ( I'm not a fan but don't let that stop you using it) or the Kinlin XR31T. The last rim is 31mm deep 24mm eide, same weight as the archetype and if built with stiff spokes will provide you with a stiff reliable and a wonderfully ride. It's also an aero rim so you could even justify aero spokes but I think the rim benefits from stiffer spokes rear to limit or remove brake rub. Brake rub happens with stiff rims not sufficiently supported by spokes.

    I have started to write a detailed guide to wheel building which is generic. It will take a while but will summarise everything in this thread and get quite technical. It will cover the anatomy of hubs, hub geometry, rim selection lacing patterns. Brand recommendations are not given neither that's not the point. It is simply everything I know. It will take a while to write. When it's done it will be posted here.

    Hey thanks for this. This puts things in a much better perspective. I think I've read the wrong or outdated threads regarding the Archetypes. People had a few good words to say about them some years ago.

    I'm not quite sure if the rims you've mentioned are readily available in my side of the world. The DT Swiss and Kinlin might be around. If the equivalent of the Sapim race is the DT Comp, I might as well go with that. I've seen those in circulation too. And I guess I have to go with the Bitex hubs too.

    If I really had to go with the Archetypes due to the lack of availability of the rims you've mentioned, 20 or 24/28 laced to Bitex hubs with DT Comps would suffice?
  • mrb123 wrote:
    I'm a similar weight to you. 24/28 spokes have been good for me with the Bitex hubs (brass nips, D-lights).

    Yeah, pretty sure the intended 20/24 is out of the question. Not quite sure what the equivalent of the D-lights are here. The common ones around are DT Swiss and Pillars.
  • mrb123mrb123 Posts: 2,152
    dgranada wrote:
    These rims in this spoke count only a page or two back where used by someone else if your weight. Spokes failed. I would echo ugo here somely no.

    First of all rims. The archetype rim is not that stiff. 28 spokes are needed for the rear with Sapim race or equivalents to provide a genuinely reliable wheel.

    The novatec hubs are o.k but that's it. The a271/f362 are nothing special. The a291/f482 hubs I no longer build with as bearings can and do fail quickly for the
    Rear hub. The front hub is normally fine. The bitex Rar12/RAF12 is a hub I use sometimes. Much more reliable than the light weight novatec. I guess bitex have got the tollerances in the axle shoulders right.

    If you are using a low spoke count pick a deeper rim but also one that's not v shaped. It's the v that the problem and v rims are not very stiff at all.

    Rims that work in order of suitability left to right. Right being more suitable.

    Pacenti Forza (it's a rounded profile but use Sapim race spokes or DT comps please), Ambrosio P20 ( 27mm deep but again Sapim race is a good idea), DT Swiss RR511 ( I'm not a fan but don't let that stop you using it) or the Kinlin XR31T. The last rim is 31mm deep 24mm eide, same weight as the archetype and if built with stiff spokes will provide you with a stiff reliable and a wonderfully ride. It's also an aero rim so you could even justify aero spokes but I think the rim benefits from stiffer spokes rear to limit or remove brake rub. Brake rub happens with stiff rims not sufficiently supported by spokes.

    I have started to write a detailed guide to wheel building which is generic. It will take a while but will summarise everything in this thread and get quite technical. It will cover the anatomy of hubs, hub geometry, rim selection lacing patterns. Brand recommendations are not given neither that's not the point. It is simply everything I know. It will take a while to write. When it's done it will be posted here.

    Hey thanks for this. This puts things in a much better perspective. I think I've read the wrong or outdated threads regarding the Archetypes. People had a few good words to say about them some years ago.

    I'm not quite sure if the rims you've mentioned are readily available in my side of the world. The DT Swiss and Kinlin might be around. If the equivalent of the Sapim race is the DT Comp, I might as well go with that. I've seen those in circulation too. And I guess I have to go with the Bitex hubs too.

    If I really had to go with the Archetypes due to the lack of availability of the rims you've mentioned, 20 or 24/28 laced to Bitex hubs with DT Comps would suffice?

    https://thecycleclinic.co.uk/collection ... lset-black
    https://thecycleclinic.co.uk/collection ... -archetype

    Some rather more positive views on the Archetype rims, on Malcolm's own website!
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,874
    edited October 2018
    The archetype is fine in higher spoke could NTS. The problem the archetype has the DT Swiss r460 and the kinlin xr22t exist. The kinlin is the better rim in my view as it's lighter than the DT Swiss rim and tubeless tyres are a tighter fit meaning less tape needed to get them too seal, the rim also retains a tubeless tyre at zero pressure, they might unseat on the DT Swiss rim. both rims are cheaper and no less stiff than the archetype. However the archetype looks good and is still a decent rim if your using tubes. It's also perfect for 120kg riders.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • The archetype is fine in higher spoke could NTS. The problem the archetype has the DT Swiss r460 and the kinlin xr22t exist. The kinlin is the better rim in my view as it's lighter than the DT Swiss rim and tubeless tyres are a tighter fit meaning less tape needed to get them too seal, the l join also retains s team beless tyre at zero pressure, they might unseat on the DT Swiss rim. both rims are cheaper and no less stiff than the archetype. However the archetype looks good and is still a decent rim if your using tubes. It's also perfect for 120kg riders.

    Appreciate it a lot. I'll have to check if there are R460's and/or XR22T's around here. But for now the Archetype 24/28 on Bitex hubs is what's readily available. What DT Swiss spokes would you recommend?
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,874
    Revs front comps rear or comps all round as it's easier.

    Where the hell are you?
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • Revs front comps rear or comps all round as it's easier.

    Where the hell are you?

    Philippines, kind sir.
  • bobonesbobones Posts: 979
    dgranada wrote:
    The archetype is fine in higher spoke could NTS. The problem the archetype has the DT Swiss r460 and the kinlin xr22t exist. The kinlin is the better rim in my view as it's lighter than the DT Swiss rim and tubeless tyres are a tighter fit meaning less tape needed to get them too seal, the l join also retains s team beless tyre at zero pressure, they might unseat on the DT Swiss rim. both rims are cheaper and no less stiff than the archetype. However the archetype looks good and is still a decent rim if your using tubes. It's also perfect for 120kg riders.

    Appreciate it a lot. I'll have to check if there are R460's and/or XR22T's around here. But for now the Archetype 24/28 on Bitex hubs is what's readily available. What DT Swiss spokes would you recommend?
    You should also consider the Mavic Open Pro UST rim - it's wide (19mm internal), light (~430g), stiff and looks great IMO. I recently built up a 24F/28R set on Bitex RAF10/RAR9 super-light hubs with Sapim Laser (DT Revolution equiv.) front and Sapim D-Light (DT Supercomp equiv.) rear that came in sub 1400g with brass nipples. I'm really impressed with the ride quality and the Bitex hubs have held up well so far in the wet.

    Despite what Malcolm says, I also rate the DT Swiss R460 rim: it's a bit heavier (and cheaper) than the Mavic, but I've never had any problems with tyres unseating or being difficult to mount. A few other users here like them too.
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,874
    Nothing against the r460 except the kinlin is generally a nice rim to build with.they are also cheaper to buy trade than the r460 rim. Also if I have to warranty a r460 for not being round I have to spend a bit of money (£8) to get the rim to tf tuned and hope they warranty. I won't get my shipping back do it's not really worth it. The last warranty ( a DT Swiss freehub that was too short) with tf tuned got lost there. That my problem with DT Swiss. (Madison sell them but they don't do the warranty). With kinlin I call JD whiskers with a kinlin warranty and it does happen ocassionally. and they say o.k you can have a new rim. If I bought it of kinlin I let Katherine at kinlin know and I get a new rim.

    My other issue with the r460 rim is getting the wheel under 0.5mm radial trueness takes too long.

    If the R460 rim was £30 retail and £15 trade I would like it alot more.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • bobonesbobones Posts: 979
    r2-bike sell the R460s for €29.75 which for two with delivery to UK works out at around £30.50 each. They're a nice looking rim with tasteful decals, but they vary quite a bit in weight and tend to be over the advertised 460g.

    The one thing that puts me off Kinlin rims for my own builds is that they look a bit boring without decals.
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,874
    edited October 2018
    As I said you would have to buy them for £15 ( that's what bike 24 are paying from DT Swiss) to sell at £30 but Madison though sell at £23 + VAT so because it is not always as round as I would like it to be, suddenly it becomes the worst rim in the world.

    I judge a rims worth on its specification and consistency not how it looks. The kinlin is wider, lighter, as stiff, often rounder and has better tubeless compatibility in particular for wide cross or gravel tubeless tyres running low pressures. These have a higher chance of burping on the the DT Swiss rim.

    So what is the advantage of the DT rim except saving a few quid if buying of bike 24. However compared to the archetype the R460 is not a bad choice.

    Where the R460 is better is for tubed tyres. Tyre fitting is easier. For tubeless tyres the kinlin has the edge and if tubeless tape is used tubed tyre fitting is not hard. Even schwalbe marathons slip on.

    I think the last R460 I fitted a tubeless tyre to needed 4 wraps of stans like tape to enable it to inflate. That's two to many in my book. I am fussy.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • Agree the decals on a DT 460 are very tasteful for a 30-35 quid rim. It is a sleeve joint rim, so perfect roundness can be an issue, as well as seamless joint. Neither of them seem to be a real world problem.

    It fits all my basic requirements of robustness, wide availability, good choice of hole counts, reasonable weight, foolproof wear indicator and decent width.
  • bobonesbobones Posts: 979
    So what is the advantage of the DT rim except saving a few quid if buying of bike 24.
    Better looks, wear indicator, brand awareness ...

    Apart from buying Borg badged Kinlins, are there any decent decals to jazz up their looks a bit?
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,874
    You can make some decals. The out of roundness is generally not at the join. It rarely over a mm so you can true most of it out.

    Yes the r460 looks fine but that's not a a reason for me to pick a rim. I get request for unlogoed kinlins often. So decals are not for everyone. I don't care about brand awareness or I would be building with the R460.

    I can tell when a rim is worn without a wear indicator. I use my eyes sorry to be facisous but it should be obvious when a rim is worn. Wear indicators tend to show a worn rim about early which is why I have not had them put on the kinlins.

    I don't think the R460 is a bad rim it's just my proporities are different to yours. I.e you care about things that are irrelevant to me.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • bobones wrote:
    You should also consider the Mavic Open Pro UST rim - it's wide (19mm internal), light (~430g), stiff and looks great IMO. I recently built up a 24F/28R set on Bitex RAF10/RAR9 super-light hubs with Sapim Laser (DT Revolution equiv.) front and Sapim D-Light (DT Supercomp equiv.) rear that came in sub 1400g with brass nipples. I'm really impressed with the ride quality and the Bitex hubs have held up well so far in the wet.

    Despite what Malcolm says, I also rate the DT Swiss R460 rim: it's a bit heavier (and cheaper) than the Mavic, but I've never had any problems with tyres unseating or being difficult to mount. A few other users here like them too.

    Hey, thanks. I'll definitely look into it.
  • svettysvetty Posts: 1,900
    However compared to the archetype the R460 is not a bad choice.

    Has the quality of the Archetype gone down? Until relatively recently most people - including me - found that it was a reasonably priced robust, easy to build, reasonably wide rim.
    FFS! Harden up and grow a pair :D
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,874
    I think you need to look at rims specifications over brand names and price. This is what I have been getting at all along. The brand is not relevant the rim profile, wall thicknesses...

    What does quality even mean. Id be dammed if I know.

    The kinlin and r460 are wider, tubeless compatible, at least as stiff, same weight or lower depending on the rim.....

    So if your comparing specifications then it is quite clear the archetype needs an update.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • timothywtimothyw Posts: 2,468
    And the killer is that the Archetype is more expensive. No way is it worth near twice the cost of a dt r460.

    Which is where reasonably priced falls down.
  • DimpseyDimpsey Posts: 12
    Hi
    Looking for a wide-ish rim for CX, with potential to run narrow XC tyres and 28mm road tyres.
    Would the Kinlin TL-21 with it's 21mm internal width be suitable?
    Or am I asking for too much of a rim to cover such a range of widths?
    Cheers
  • DimpseyDimpsey Posts: 12
    Double post
  • bobonesbobones Posts: 979
    19c seems to be the maximum recommended width for 28mm tyres, and that will do up to 62mm wide tyres.

    See here https://bikerumor.com/2016/08/12/tech-s ... t-results/
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