LSD (zone 1/2) winter training has wrecked my riding

jermas

This winter after reading articles with titles like "slow is the new fast" and the "importance of winter base training" I decided for the first time to train the traditional way - ie lots of long disciplined zone 1/2 rides- avoiding z4 .
My weekly mileage range was 200-300 miles, almost exclusively 50-80 mile rides in hilly Wales. After about 10 weeks of this, I started "building" for the last 5 weeks.
Anyway after this period, my form has been the worst it's been for as long as I can remember. My speed is dire, hill climbing poor, and even endurance isn't great. Easy rides are no longer easy as my fitness has plummeted.
I think it'll take some time/effort to get back.

So has anyone else experienced such losses with a traditional winter training approach?

dilatory

I thought it was upper Z2 / tempo for long hours that was the new cool, not just pootling about half arsed like. And solid at that, not an average at Z2 but staying there no matter what.

peddlingmadness

Did 12 weeks base training over winter, if anything I looked at it as a break. Struggled on the first few clubs runs, Felt like Sh&t. Now 3 weeks into Steady state and power intervals and regaining fitness fast. Time will tell if the Endurance Miles did the trick into making my body use more fat than carbs but, its early days,

imposter2.0

jermas wrote:

This winter after reading articles with titles like "slow is the new fast" and the "importance of winter base training" I decided for the first time to train the traditional way - ie lots of long disciplined zone 1/2 rides- avoiding z4 .
My weekly mileage range was 200-300 miles, almost exclusively 50-80 mile rides in hilly Wales. After about 10 weeks of this, I started "building" for the last 5 weeks.
Anyway after this period, my form has been the worst it's been for as long as I can remember. My speed is dire, hill climbing poor, and even endurance isn't great. Easy rides are no longer easy as my fitness has plummeted.
I think it'll take some time/effort to get back.

So has anyone else experienced such losses with a traditional winter training approach?

The 's' in LSD stands for 'steady' - not 'slow'. Big difference. If all you do is twiddle around in zone 1, of course you will lose form.

jermas

Yes my S was steady not slow (mostly zone 2) but after 10 weeks, steady turned to slow.

imposter2.0

But if you did 10 weeks of only riding 'slow' - why did you think that would make you 'faster' ? If it was a simple as that, we'd all be crawling around at 10mph on every training ride.

smiley_boy2501

I've done the same. Only now after 4 weeks of tempo, sweet spot and lactate threshold have I started to feel that 'zing' again.
Hopefully everyone above is wrong about your training....

Tom Dean

peddlingmadness wrote:

Time will tell if the Endurance Miles did the trick into making my body use more fat than carbs but, its early days,

How will you know?

alihisgreat

jermas wrote:

This winter after reading articles with titles like "slow is the new fast" and the "importance of winter base training" I decided for the first time to train the traditional way - ie lots of long disciplined zone 1/2 rides- avoiding z4 .
My weekly mileage range was 200-300 miles, almost exclusively 50-80 mile rides in hilly Wales. After about 10 weeks of this, I started "building" for the last 5 weeks.
Anyway after this period, my form has been the worst it's been for as long as I can remember. My speed is dire, hill climbing poor, and even endurance isn't great. Easy rides are no longer easy as my fitness has plummeted.
I think it'll take some time/effort to get back.

So has anyone else experienced such losses with a traditional winter training approach?

So you haven't done any hard efforts over the winter, and now you're finding it hard to do hard efforts? Are you surprised?

Surely the judgement of whether your winter training has worked should be made after you've got your form back?

mamba80

jermas wrote:

Yes my S was steady not slow (mostly zone 2) but after 10 weeks, steady turned to slow.

You need to build either distance or intensity, say every 3 or 4 weeks, just riding around for months on end, doing the same thing doesn't work.

If this was the case then the CTC would be where all the fast racers would come from.

wavefront

jermas wrote:

This winter after reading articles with titles like "slow is the new fast" and the "importance of winter base training" I decided for the first time to train the traditional way - ie lots of long disciplined zone 1/2 rides- avoiding z4 .
My weekly mileage range was 200-300 miles, almost exclusively 50-80 mile rides in hilly Wales. After about 10 weeks of this, I started "building" for the last 5 weeks.
Anyway after this period, my form has been the worst it's been for as long as I can remember. My speed is dire, hill climbing poor, and even endurance isn't great. Easy rides are no longer easy as my fitness has plummeted.
I think it'll take some time/effort to get back.

So has anyone else experienced such losses with a traditional winter training approach?

I think it's easy to panic this time of year, especially if you're doing something different. Your gains will come after base riding, and even then I'd ask what are you comparing this years fitness to? This time last year when you were doing a different training regime, or your summer peak? What evidence do you have?

Speed you can account for (every one is slower in winter - assuming that's why you said steady turned to slow?), climbing you can account for (takes more effort and you haven't been doing those sort of intensities recently, and you may be heavier?). Your apparent suffering of endurance may be due to weeks of lots and lots of hours so you're now fatigued especially if you've been adding intensity recently. (if you were doing 15hrs a week you could easily achieve a weekly TSS of 650+ which for some people for 10 weeks may be too much?)

Fitness takes time, alot of it. Even after 5 weeks build it may be too soon to see any real gains, but they should come. Unless you were 'pottering' around those weeks will have done you some good.

bernithebiker

I tried low level Z 1 and 2 training a bit in November and December - didn't work for me in that;

a) i would return home more tired and achey than usual - weird but true...

b) i started finding it difficult and hard work to up the pace and sprint up short hills etc.

I see the logic behind the idea, but I fear that your body 'forgets' how to work hard. I ride with many older (50+) ex racers that are still very fit, but they tend to be 'diesels' - good at steady pace, not so good at pace changes.

As with so many things, it depends on you. Does it work for you or not? It might for others, but not necessarily for you.

My winter rides now tend to be Z 1 to 3, with several short sharp efforts of 1 to 10 minutes (Z 4 to 5).

jermas

^^ Similar to my experience. Thanks for your replies!

saftlad

I thought the majority of the riding should be Zone 2, but still mix in sessions with higher intensity/shorter duration work as well. The body is great at adapting to workload so if you've only worked for 3 months at a low level, then that's what your body will be good at.

napoleond

My base training is one day z2, one day sweetspot intervals, 1day z2, day off. Repeat.
My z2 is actually pretty tough! The zones are got from lab testing, my z2 is the level just below the point at which I start burning primarily glycogen.

jgsi

My zone splits over winter include a lot of Zone 1 and 2 but I think I have been careful to slot in higher intensities.

matt-h

NapoleonD wrote:

My base training is one day z2, one day sweetspot intervals, 1day z2, day off. Repeat.
My z2 is actually pretty tough! The zones are got from lab testing, my z2 is the level just below the point at which I start burning primarily glycogen.

I think this is the important bit.
I have never seen how pottering about in winter works.

I have upped my intensity on the turbo this winter andam at the best i have ever been.
Whether i can carry that through the rest of the year remains to be seen

Its trial and error for me as the low intensity winter stuff didn't work for me last year

sloppyschleckonds

jermas wrote:

This winter after reading articles with titles like "slow is the new fast" and the "importance of winter base training" I decided for the first time to train the traditional way - ie lots of long disciplined zone 1/2 rides- avoiding z4 .

May be you should have asked the question on the internet before making this decision.

jermas

^^ A lot of wisdom indicates that the above approach is a good way to winter train, so I thought I'd give it a try. Sometimes you have to try things for yourself.

peddlingmadness

Tom Dean wrote:

peddlingmadness wrote:

Time will tell if the Endurance Miles did the trick into making my body use more fat than carbs but, its early days,

How will you know?

#
did a lactate threshold test back in early November, my RQ levels showed I was burning carbs way too quickly. The advice given was going long and slow keeping my heart rate between 123 and 133 (not easy to do on the road) will go back in May and do the same test again. More importantly I've quite a few distance events that I did last year and will see how I do in comparison this year.

AK_jnr

Until my crash in mid Jan I had been doing alot of 3/4 hour rides in mid to upper Z2. There is no way I could ride in Z1 which for me is below 108bpm or so.

The Z2 rides were quite taxing by the end as I believe they should be. I was very rarely just pootling about.
I was also doing quite a few efforts at sweetspot and 2 x 20's on the road during these longer rides.
I just tried to stay away from threshold on the climbs unless I was doing an effort.

lochindaal

I have done this using quarterly lab tests a few years ago. I was switching to burning carbs at a low intensity so did a lot of low intensity to improve it.
To roughly define the zones; Zone 0 - recovery, Zone 1 - base endurance , Zone 2 - aerobic conditioning, Zone 3 aerobic conditioning, Zone 4 threshold, etc

I was doing one long ride a week of 3hrs+ at Zone 1 and 2 rides at Zone 2 of about 1 hr+. After 12 weeks not surprisingly all my max numbers had dropped but I was burning fat more efficiently (lab tested)

In the next 12 weeks the 1hr rides became Z2 and Z3, one each/week.

Finally I moved to 4 rides/week 1 progressed from Z3 to Z5 intervals, One at Z6/7 intervals, one @Z2 and a long one at Z1/2

By the end I had my max numbers back and had a better fat burning profile as well. It had regressed from the initial 12 week test but was better than when I started.

So I can say yes I did see the benefit and have data to back it up but this was done over a 9 month time frame, not a few weeks

stueys

Interesting, could you not achieve the same thing by mixing intervals and long rides together? So currently I'm doing sweetspot/threshold intervals in the week on the turbo and then a long ride (4hrs +) at the weekend. The long ride I will climb at either SS/threshold and stay in z2/lower z3 on the flat, so I get a mix of base and intensity on the ride. Looking at the zone breakup on the long ride I'm getting a lot of base time with a good sprinkling of intensity.

Isn't this going to achieve much the same result without losing the top end?

lochindaal

This was a specific program as I switched from burning fat to cards at a very low intensity. As like any proper coaching program it comes down to the individual. What works for some.....

I was just saying to the OP the low intensity approach can work but a drop in form would be expected. Maybe more importantly is the time frame was quite long for me overall.

In contrast this year I have done a complete reverse periodisation as I will be doing some sprint triathlons in May and the Etape in July. Over the winter I have focused on leg strength sessions and high intensity intervals. From end of May onwards this will progress to the longer rides. There is a consideration that this may actually be a better approach in the northern hemisphere as you are doing shorter sessions when the days are short and then getting longer.

More than anything I would say have a plan you are comfortable with and stick with it. If you don't believe in it you'll start to mix things up randomly and get nowhere.

cswitch

The low steady training has likely built a very good endurance base. Now you need to have faith in your build program and stick with it - assuming its well thought out. No doubt the intensity is now painful as you're joints, tendons, muscles (brain!) are just no longer use to those efforts & forces being applied. What sessions are you now doing? Have you lowered your training miles to reflect the increase in intensity? If riding very easy at other times then maybe not necessary to lower mileage much. Are you getting enough rest? Are you ramping up intensity week on week rather than just throwing yourself into it from day 1? This can be a big shock to the body when you haven't done intensity for a while and you will really notice the loss of performance compared to the end of last season. This can be demotivating especially if you are expecting instant results.

Plenty of negative comments on here but I would stay positive. Plenty of time to get the speed back and once you do you might be surprised how much longer you can hold those harder efforts. I've just done a 6 week block with plenty of intensity. Its only the last week or two that Ive really started to notice the benefits.

Personally I keep some intensity in the winter as I don't like the big shock to the system come Feb / March when intensity ramps up. Having said that Ive also had very good seasons after following a similar winter program to what you are doing. Stay positive, it will come together.

jermas

My main reasons for trying a (very disciplined) low intensity winter were -1 to avoid summer burnout as I tend to do quite high mileages.
2 to improve efficiency/speed at lower heart rates (Z1/Z2). Then build on this in spring/summer.

I was certainly expecting to lose "top end speed", but was surprised to lose cruising speed too - the very thing as was trying to improve!
I'm not too worried as I'm sure in a few weeks form will improve.

Cheers for all your input.

Tom Dean

lochindaal wrote:

I have done this using quarterly lab tests a few years ago. I was switching to burning carbs at a low intensity so did a lot of low intensity to improve it.
To roughly define the zones; Zone 0 - recovery, Zone 1 - base endurance , Zone 2 - aerobic conditioning, Zone 3 aerobic conditioning, Zone 4 threshold, etc

I was doing one long ride a week of 3hrs+ at Zone 1 and 2 rides at Zone 2 of about 1 hr+. After 12 weeks not surprisingly all my max numbers had dropped but I was burning fat more efficiently (lab tested)

In the next 12 weeks the 1hr rides became Z2 and Z3, one each/week.

Finally I moved to 4 rides/week 1 progressed from Z3 to Z5 intervals, One at Z6/7 intervals, one @Z2 and a long one at Z1/2

By the end I had my max numbers back and had a better fat burning profile as well. It had regressed from the initial 12 week test but was better than when I started.

So I can say yes I did see the benefit and have data to back it up but this was done over a 9 month time frame, not a few weeks

This is part of your wider tri training presumably? Worth stating as it looks a bit weird otherwise.

edit: also, what system of zones is this / how many zones?

lochindaal

Actually at the time it wasn't based around triathlon, it was training for L'Etape. I was aiming to finish it well but I wasn't training to race.
I was travelling a lot with work and had limited time so I committed to do 3 sessions/week that I could guarantee.

There were 7 zones based around Anaerobic HR tested threshold
7 Force Tolerance NA max effort 10s
6 Force Production NA max effort 10-20s
5 Aerobic Power AT+4 - AT+14
4 Threshold AT-3-> AT+3
3 Aerobic Conditioning 2 AT-14 -> AT-4
2 Aerobic Conditioning 1 AT-30 -> AT-15
1 Aerobic Base AT-51 -> AT-31

I've given you the info as you asked the question but I wouldn't over analyse it as it was an individual plan that worked for me (though even looking at it now it is a progressed balanced plan).

What I can say to the OP though is I have had a positive experience of the base training method working though as said before I did this over 9 months not a few weeks.

Tom Dean

You mentioned level 0 which confused me, I'll assume the zones are analogous to the Coggan 7 levels and the numbers are HR related. The descriptions aren't very helpful.

Your training may have worked for you but compared to what? IMO you could have worked much harder in those first 24 (!) weeks.

Base does not mean slow riding.

LSD is about volume. You get the benefit from the L, not the S.

Gav888

I was worried about my winter miles a few years back, ended up emailing Joe Friel for some advice, and for the weekly hours I do (7 or 8 typically) Joe said I shouldn't really be doing any Z2 apart from long rides and stick to Z3 for the bulk of my training. Once you have adapted to that training load progress to harder stuff, ie intervals. This has worked well for me in the past and I will return to it, but unfortuntely I have gone through a period of injury and bike fit issues - pro bike fit booked in for 2 weeks time though and physio has been great at getting me back on the bike....

term1te

Interestingly, but completely off topic, LSD was first synthesised in one of the buildings I occasionally work in. Albert Hofmann, who first synthesised it, used to live in a neighbouring village. The company records don't say if he was a keen cyclist, I suspect not, but there are some great climbs out of the village where he used to live.