Lungs are fine, legs are shot - what's wrong?

mamba80

NorvernRob wrote:

Thanks for the reply, but it doesn't seems like you've read my first post. This isn't normal for me. My legs are fatiguing much quicker than they were just a few weeks ago.

I also had a bike fit with Adrian Timmis 6 weeks ago so I'm happy there's nothing wrong with my position, though I may still be getting used to using muscles slightly differently.

I run because I enjoy it, loads of people do both. I won't be doing any for the next 8 weeks though as I won't have time due to following the training plan on TR.

As I read your first post, you seem to have had 14days off at xmas and then a further 10 days off later on? plus you are doing 3 x 1hr super hard turbo sessions per week? you ve taken up running and have a new riding position?
your body can only handle so much stress, esp has you ve so little endurance volume, so if you read the time crunched cyclist, Carmichael states that after 8 to 11 weeks of progressive vo2 max sessions, the avg rider will need 4 weeks plus of just riding around recovery before starting again.
If it were possible to become a good cyclist on a 4 or 5 hrs per week, we d all be doing it.

norvernrob

mamba80 wrote:

NorvernRob wrote:

Thanks for the reply, but it doesn't seems like you've read my first post. This isn't normal for me. My legs are fatiguing much quicker than they were just a few weeks ago.

I also had a bike fit with Adrian Timmis 6 weeks ago so I'm happy there's nothing wrong with my position, though I may still be getting used to using muscles slightly differently.

I run because I enjoy it, loads of people do both. I won't be doing any for the next 8 weeks though as I won't have time due to following the training plan on TR.

As I read your first post, you seem to have had 14days off at xmas and then a further 10 days off later on? plus you are doing 3 x 1hr super hard turbo sessions per week? you ve taken up running and have a new riding position?
your body can only handle so much stress, esp has you ve so little endurance volume, so if you read the time crunched cyclist, Carmichael states that after 8 to 11 weeks of progressive vo2 max sessions, the avg rider will need 4 weeks plus of just riding around recovery before starting again.
If it were possible to become a good cyclist on a 4 or 5 hrs per week, we d all be doing it.

Yes, a couple of weeks off at Xmas but right through December I was still doing decent 3-5hr rides on Sundays as the weather was pretty good. Jan and Feb I didn't do much road riding as we had a lot of snow and ice here.

I had a 10 day break in that 2 month period whilst I was on holiday, but other than that I was doing roughly 3hrs per week hard turbo sessions (or I'd substitute a 6k run for one of the sessions) and the odd ride on Sunday when I could get out. And yes a new position too.

I just didn't think I was doing enough to be over training, but I suppose I did change quite a few things at once.

napoleond

I'm pretty sure Mr Timmis will have told you to do at least a couple of weeks of easy rides to adjust to your new position then gradually ramp it up...

OfficerDigby

As always complicated to differentiate between effects from a multitude of potential causes, e.g. changing position and training regime/fatigue, and or leg fatigue from running.

Cant get away from fact that changing saddle forwards backwards changes relative amounts of quad/glute activation in normal peddling that is most noticeable during climbing. So you could be fatiguing one over the other more than before. You check if it was this by moving the saddle back to old position

Should take a while to get used to new position, might take longer for you as you don't do much time just more intensity.

(Caution the bullshit is in full from now!)
OR the could be because you don't do much base, your intervals send you up to peak that inevitably you descend down, the answer have to go slow at least some of the time.

norvernrob

Thanks for the replies, plenty of food for thought there. It's just frustrating that as recently as December I felt really good towards the end of very hilly rides, I've done some hard training (and what I thought were a couple of decent rest periods) and my legs just don't seem to have it these last few weeks. My cv feels pretty good, it's certainly capable of far more than my legs at the moment.

So my options are:

Put it down to changing position/running - Have a rest week this week, start the TR program next week and see what happens.

Put it down to going too hard when I train plus the above - keep going on the turbo but at a steadier effort and for longer (what bothers me about that is, im not struggling with steady efforts out on the road, but fatiguing quickly after bigger efforts and it gets worse with each effort until I'm on my arse by the end of a ride).

Give up cycling and take up running, my legs feel fine when running and I'll never get a mechanical

Taking it easy on rides is really difficult, the terrain around Sheffield is at it flattest 50-60ft of climbing per mile so there are always efforts involved. Anything in the Peak District where I usually ride is more than that.

sloppyschleckonds

NorvernRob wrote:

start the TR program next week and see what happens.

Put it down to going too hard when I train plus the above - keep going on the turbo but at a steadier effort and for longer (what bothers me about that is, im not struggling with steady efforts out on the road, but fatiguing quickly after bigger efforts and it gets worse with each effort until I'm on my ars* by the end of a ride).

How are you measuring your efforts on the turbo? Is it the 'virtual power' Trainerroad method or actual power?

norvernrob

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

NorvernRob wrote:

start the TR program next week and see what happens.

Put it down to going too hard when I train plus the above - keep going on the turbo but at a steadier effort and for longer (what bothers me about that is, im not struggling with steady efforts out on the road, but fatiguing quickly after bigger efforts and it gets worse with each effort until I'm on my ars* by the end of a ride).

How are you measuring your efforts on the turbo? Is it the 'virtual power' Trainerroad method or actual power?

Normally I go by the power readings on the turbo head unit (calculated power), I do intervals based on this. I hadn't done an ftp test until recently but was working off an ftp of around 200. Generally I'd do 3 to 12 minute intervals ranging between 220 and 260w, I do a lot of climbs these kind of lengths so figured those efforts would benefit sustained power. I haven't done any specific program over a number of weeks yet, just my own thing really.

I joined TR last week and did an ftp test using VP with a speed sensor, I had the turbo head unit on at the same time to compare power readings from the turbo itself and they were within 2-3% of eachother. My FTP was 196, 2.88w/kg which was pretty much bang on what I was expecting.

Obviously it isn't real power, but as long as its repeatable I'm not bothered. At least the two sources read pretty much the same!

napoleond

You are better pushing up your ftp from below than dragging it up from efforts above.
Start off with sweet spot intervals of 3-20 mins at about 180-190w then each session add 2-4w and build from there.
When you are doing your intervals comfortably above ftp, retest.

norvernrob

NapoleonD wrote:

You are better pushing up your ftp from below than dragging it up from efforts above.
Start off with sweet spot intervals of 3-20 mins at about 180-190w then each session add 2-4w and build from there.
When you are doing your intervals comfortably above ftp, retest.

Thanks. This is why I joined TR, to do something structured rather than just winging it with hard sessions. I have considered getting a power meter, I don't race and never will but I like numbers!

mrwibble

perhaps you are just not strong enough yet? strength comes with years of cycling. I have been cycling for 10 years and a gym goer for 20 years and last year I was averaging 300w in time trials. buy a power meter by the way, its the only way to gauge your efforts

norvernrob

^^^^^That would be ok if it had been happening all along, it hasn't. Just the last 4-6 weeks.

I've had a rest this week and am going out on Sunday for a 50 miler in the Peak District so will see how it goes. Decent weather forecast, best bike out, not trussed up like a kipper in winter gear so no excuses!

the_jackalcp

I have had similar experiences to you over the past couple of years for reasons that aren't clear. I have some theories that are based on observations of my performance and general health but they are only theories ( although I do have a sports science and medical background so not completely baseless).

I don't subscribe to the not fit enough/strong enough theory as I have been cycling for many years however that doesn't mean it might not be right for you, although I doubt it having read your posts. I don't really have much advise other than don't let it get you down and if it persists consider some medical advice.

stu-bim

More than likely you just have tired hamstrings

Pushing the seat back will usually place more emphasis on hamstrings than quads,

Running is more hamstring dominant than quads, even though your quad swill be burning when you start running

And climbing will put more pressure on your hamstrings if you raise into a more upright position

Maybe give your hamstrings some time to adjust to the new level of work you are putting on them

Might just be one muscle group that is bring 'over worked' and will catch up soon enough

mrwibble

Treat yourself to a sports massage and maybe do some simple yoga/stretching (agree about the hamstrings comment) just to get everything stretched. Some people swear also about juicing and the benefits of micro nutrients from fruits and vegetables to feed your body.

Newlife

The thing that seems obvious to me is the bike fit. I had a bike fit last year and had my saddle raised and moved back a notable amount too and for weeks after it was like my legs needed retraining from scratch. It wasn't really that bad of course but the different bike position will employ your muscles in a different way. The time for the muscles to adjust could be the reason for all the problems stated.

I know we have many differing views even in this one thread but I for one would rule out even overreaching let alone overtraining. The load just does not sound that high.

norvernrob

Well, just back from a 53 mile/4800ft Peak District ride - and I was back to normal. The telling thing was that I got a PB on the 3.6km Grindleford Hill climb which was after 40 miles, and we did a couple of new tough climbs including the Curbar Edge which is 1.8km at 10.2% average. The first 20 miles were into a ripping headwind too so if I was going to be fatigued any day it was today.

On the last 10 miles home my mate was struggling to hang on, we stopped at some lights and he said how knackered he was. My legs feel as they should now, slightly aching but not massively fatigued.

I still don't know exactly what's been happening though, whether it was the running or something else, a virus maybe? I haven't run for 10 days, but I had the same break when I went on holiday and was wrecked after a 30 miler with half the climbing we did today.

reds99

Sounds like a virus to me. Slap cheek virus what kids get, adults can get, no obvious symptoms but tire easy. I suffered that a couple years back, took 6 weeks before it was clear. Not saying you had slap cheek, but it does sound like a virus. Word of warning if it is a virus, the next time you ride and start suffering, certain virus can recur as you are not completely recovered, if that makes sense.