Lungs are fine, legs are shot - what's wrong?

norvernrob

Morning all

Just back from another frustrating ride. Basically my legs are getting fatigued really quickly (within 60-90 minutes) to the point where as soon as I have to put in an effort uphill it feels like they instantly flood with lactic acid. Up the last few hills today I could have held a conversation all the way up but it felt like I was pedalling through treacle and my legs were on fire top to bottom.

I was with my usual riding buddy and we havent been pushing any harder than normal, our average speed is actually down by about 2mph on last summer/autumn speeds. Hes leaving me on hills we'd usually ride up together, and he hasn't even done any turbo work over the winter.

The two obvious things that have happened since this started are: I had a bike fit with Adrian Timmis at the end of January - my saddle was too high, too far forward, bars were adjusted, cleats adjusted. The new position feels great and I don't have any specific niggles whatsoever.

I started running about 6 weeks ago. Obviously my legs were stiff after the first few runs but they feel generally ok now. Before last weekends ride (where I also had to grovel the last couple of miles home) I'd been on holiday so hadn't done any running or turbo training for 10 days, so I don't think it's down to that.

I started riding last January, by May I'd done a 100 miler at 17mph average, and through the year did loads of Peak District rides with 5,000+FT of climbing, on the longer hillier rides I'd have the best legs at the end.

It feels like I've gone completely backwards at the minute and it's so frustrating - my fitness is the best it's ever been but my legs just haven't got it. The only time I had off the bike was 2 weeks over Christmas, I was on the turbo throughout Jan and Feb doing 2-3hrs per week of hard sessions, usually intervals.

I signed up with Trainer Road this week and did my first ftp test on Friday, 196w which is 2.88w/kg. The strange thing is I feel fine on the turbo but I suppose I'm not on there any longer than an hour at a time.

Could it be just that Im still getting used to the new position?

Thanks for any replies

Rob

norvernrob

I forgot cadence, I spin at 90+ and spin uphill too with an 11-28 cassette. Never had any issues until the last 5/6 weeks.

kmanchester

Are you getting enough rest? Perhaps you're just doing too much or too many hard sessions and overtraining (or under-recovering).

imposter2.0

The running seems the obviousl place to start looking. When are you running in relation to your riding?

DKay

Work stress and lack of sleep is usually why my cycling performance plummets.

norvernrob

kmanchester wrote:

Are you getting enough rest? Perhaps you're just doing too much or too many hard sessions and overtraining (or under-recovering).

Yeah I'd say plenty. I've been training 2-3 times per week, usually one of those being a 6k run. I've done 3 sessions when the weather is bad and been unable to get out, and 2 plus a Sunday ride if the weathers been ok. Before last Sunday i'd had 10 days rest and was still pretty rubbish.

Imposter wrote:

The running seems the obviousl place to start looking. When are you running in relation to your riding?

I've been running on Wednesdays usually. I did 6k this Wed then my ftp test on Friday, my quads were definitely sore during it but I didn't feel particularly weak and 196 is around the figure I expected to hit. I agree with you though that it looks suspect I started struggling around the same time I started running.

DKay wrote:

Work stress and lack of sleep is usually why my cycling performance plummets.

I'm a postie and find it pretty easy so definitely no stress, I tend to get 7-8hrs every night too so I can rule out lack of that. Work is relatively quiet at the moment too.

My mate pointed out today that I fatigue a lot quicker on my Cube than I do on my Foil, I was fitted on both bikes and they feel exactly the same when I'm riding but he's definitely right. Last week on a 6 mile straight, flattish road I managed to drop him and make about 25 seconds, but by the end of the ride I was absolutely on my chinstrap and it was only 40 miles. Normally I'd be fine at that kind of pace, today he just left me up the hills and we weren't pushing hard.

I'm starting an 8 week program on TR this week so I won't have time for any running until I've finished that anyway. At least if things don't improve I'll know for certain it's not the running.

jgsi

I take it that your riding partner does not bother with running?

mercia_man

Sounds to me like overtraining. Are you going flat out in all your turbo sessions and runs? Pushing yourself hard in your aim of getting stronger and fitter? Busting a gut to get maximum power output? It's a good idea to have steady cycle rides in your programme to develop a general base level which will improve your endurance. As a newcomer to running, it's doubly important to show a little restraint and gradually build up speed and distance. Whether you are cycling or running, hard intervals, hill reps and sprints should be introduced gradually to allow your body to recover, adapt and get stronger.

JayKosta

My guess is that your leg muscles are more fatigued than you realize, and that results in decreased endurance.
I'd do additional 'rest/recovery' days that don't include any hard muscle efforts - easy to medium to increase blood flow but not stress the muscles.
And be careful to not jump too hard into the new TR program until you have really recovered.

Depending on the amount of position change from the bike fitting, you might also be using muscles in a different manner than prior.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USE

Dodger747

Mercia Man wrote:

Sounds to me like overtraining.

Not a chance on 2-3 hours per week on the turbo! I know the majority of people on here have day jobs also, but unless you're riding like a pro [circa 40 hours per week], it just won't be over-training.

Manc33

You're better off with it this way around than the other way trust me.

mercia_man

Dodger747 wrote:

Mercia Man wrote:

Sounds to me like overtraining.

Not a chance on 2-3 hours per week on the turbo! I know the majority of people on here have day jobs also, but unless you're riding like a pro [circa 40 hours per week], it just won't be over-training.

I disagree. If you work flat out in your desire to push yourself to better strength and fitness, even for a relatively few times per week, you risk over-doing it with the result that your legs feel tired when you go out for a longer ride. Don't forget Rob has recently taken up running and I know, as a competitive runner, how much strain and stress running can put on the body of a novice.

TheXenolith

It's interesting that you mentioned 60-90 mins, that is about the time you will likely run out of glycogen if you maintained a high effort without taking any food. Have you tried taking power gels every 45 mins?

sloppyschleckonds

Mercia Man wrote:

Dodger747 wrote:

Mercia Man wrote:

Sounds to me like overtraining.

Not a chance on 2-3 hours per week on the turbo! I know the majority of people on here have day jobs also, but unless you're riding like a pro [circa 40 hours per week], it just won't be over-training.

I disagree. If you work flat out in your desire to push yourself to better strength and fitness, even for a relatively few times per week, you risk over-doing it with the result that your legs feel tired when you go out for a longer ride. Don't forget Rob has recently taken up running and I know, as a competitive runner, how much strain and stress running can put on the body of a novice.

Do you mean over-reaching rather than over-training?

mercia_man

I think I do, Sloppy. I'd not heard of over-reaching so I've just googled it. As I understand it, over-reaching is a term used by sports scientists to describe short-term overload without proper recovery that can ultimately develop into over-training.

Whatever the technical terms used, my theory is that Rob's enthusiasm means he is pushing himself a bit too hard. He's relatively new to both running and cycling and is really keen to improve his performance. I know from a previous forum discussion with Rob about running that he found a steady pace boring and increased his speed too much too soon, with the result that he suffered fatigue afterwards.

My experience would suggest that mixing steady runs or rides along with high intensity intervals, speed work and hill reps, plus rest days and easier recovery weeks, is the way to go. You can't have peak fitness 52 weeks a year. It's important to increase gradually.

ozzzyosborn206

does anything feel tight or sore? specifically since the bike fit or you started running? Possible the bike fit closed up your hip angle or changed position in such a way it is stressing you in a different way to before meaning you struggle to climb as when front end is higher it closes hip angle up further?

norvernrob

Thanks for the replies, it does sound as though I'm maybe going to hard in my sessions. All my turbo sessions are intervals of various lengths, usually lasting an hour including warm up/down. My run on Wed was 6.2k in 28-something on a hilly course and I was working pretty hard there too. Plus I walk between 6 and 10 miles per day, but that's nothing new and it hasnt affected me before.

Throughout last spring/summer/autumn I was doing one or two 20 mile local loops during the week, ridden as hard as I could, then a longer 40-70 miler on Sundays. This seemed to work fine and I progressed a lot over the year, I'm just looking to really push on now.

I don't think it's fuelling, I'm not doing anything different to what I normally would for a relatively short 30/40 mile local loop and I've always been fine.

ozzzyosborn206 wrote:

does anything feel tight or sore? specifically since the bike fit or you started running? Possible the bike fit closed up your hip angle or changed position in such a way it is stressing you in a different way to before meaning you struggle to climb as when front end is higher it closes hip angle up further?

No, the position feels great. It's just pure fatigue throughout my legs that I can still feel now - I didnt feel like this even after doing the peaks epic course which is close to 7,500ft of climbing. In fact I felt great for the last 20 miles of that and the last time I did the course was only in December.

Running made my legs pretty sore the first time, then less each time after that but I can still feel it for a couple of days after. My quads were pretty sore during my ftp test on Friday but I didn't feel particularly fatigued, obviously it was under an hour though so shorter than the point at which I'm struggling.

hostman

What's your nutrition like after workouts?

It's not for everyone, but I drink this after rides: http://www.wiggle.co.uk/science-in-spor ... very-16kg/. I've tried a few others, including forgoodness shakes, chocolate milk is also supposed to be good after workouts, it has the right balance of carbs / protein and has been shown to outperform premium recovery drinks.

imposter2.0

I think his problems are during the ride, not afterwards.

hostman

Imposter wrote:

I think his problems are during the ride, not afterwards.

Sure but with the additional training I would want to be sure I'm giving my body everything it needs to repair muscles before hitting another ride.

frisbee

Are you sure your riding buddy hasn't been doing some sneaky training?

Dodger747

NorvernRob wrote:

Thanks for the replies, it does sound as though I'm maybe going to hard in my sessions. All my turbo sessions are intervals of various lengths, usually lasting an hour including warm up/down.

I wouldn't say you're going too hard personally - i.e to the point of over-reaching or over-training. Your training load seems quite small, so I'd continue to keep it at your current intensity.

In the principle of keeping it simple, it sounds like you had a bad day on the bike and need more [cycling] base fitness

ddraver

Sports Science is fun isnt it! Nearly as wishy washy as Geology!

Rob, sounds like over done a tad too much recently and have overtrained/overeached. I did a 175km ride last weekend and at a track session yesterday my legs were STILL shot. I suggest having a week off doing anything much. (Ok you can do slow gentle rides but ask yourself if you actually will be gentle ). Take some time off, clean/service the bike, go shopping, watch that film you ve not got around to watching yet etc

Probably when you start again next week you ll feel like you ve been borrowing Vino's EPO

norvernrob

hostman wrote:

Imposter wrote:

I think his problems are during the ride, not afterwards.

Sure but with the additional training I would want to be sure I'm giving my body everything it needs to repair muscles before hitting another ride.

I always have a recovery shake after riding or training, no idea whether it does much good or not but it can't hurt.

frisbee wrote:

Are you sure your riding buddy hasn't been doing some sneaky training?

No, he does the odd turbo session but nothing else. Im not just measuring myself against him, I know how quickly I should be doing these rides and how I should feel, and I'm nowhere near 'normal'.

Dodger747 wrote:

NorvernRob wrote:

Thanks for the replies, it does sound as though I'm maybe going to hard in my sessions. All my turbo sessions are intervals of various lengths, usually lasting an hour including warm up/down.

I wouldn't say you're going too hard personally - i.e to the point of over-reaching or over-training. Your training load seems quite small, so I'd continue to keep it at your current intensity.

In the principle of keeping it simple, it sounds like you had a bad day on the bike and need more [cycling] base fitness

If it was one day I'd agree, but it's been the same for around 4 weeks and it only started happening at that point. I'm fatiguing much quicker than I was, my legs anyway. I trained all through January and February, plus running, so if anything I should be better. CV wise I'm not struggling at all.

I'm going to have a rest this week, probably not go out Sunday either then start the TR plan next Monday.

norvernrob

ddraver wrote:

Sports Science is fun isnt it! Nearly as wishy washy as Geology!

Rob, sounds like over done a tad too much recently and have overtrained/overeached. I did a 175km ride last weekend and at a track session yesterday my legs were STILL shot. I suggest having a week off doing anything much. (Ok you can do slow gentle rides but ask yourself if you actually will be gentle ). Take some time off, clean/service the bike, go shopping, watch that film you ve not got around to watching yet etc

Probably when you start again next week you ll feel like you ve been borrowing Vino's EPO

I wouldn't be gentle - whether I'm walking, cycling, running or driving I can't just potter along. I'll have a rest this week and see how it goes!

styxd

NorvernRob wrote:

ddraver wrote:

Sports Science is fun isnt it! Nearly as wishy washy as Geology!

Rob, sounds like over done a tad too much recently and have overtrained/overeached. I did a 175km ride last weekend and at a track session yesterday my legs were STILL shot. I suggest having a week off doing anything much. (Ok you can do slow gentle rides but ask yourself if you actually will be gentle ). Take some time off, clean/service the bike, go shopping, watch that film you ve not got around to watching yet etc

Probably when you start again next week you ll feel like you ve been borrowing Vino's EPO

I wouldn't be gentle - whether I'm walking, cycling, running or driving I can't just potter along. I'll have a rest this week and see how it goes!

There's your problem; poor base fitness.

also, why are you bothering with running if you want to get quicker at cycling? I'd knock it on the head unless you really enjoy it.

And finally, if your quads are always "burning" it suggests to me that perhaps your cycling position isn't quite right. Ideally you want to be recruiting your glutes and hamstrings aswell.

crikey

Decide what you would like to be; the best cyclist you can? Then ride your bike.
The best runner that you can? Then run.

If you want to do both, you need to accept that you'll never be as good as you can be at both.

Cycling can allow runners to get more CV training without injury, but cycle training requires specificity above all else.

tubaonwheels

I'd just like to say that my legs are fine but my lungs are less so.
Working on it though.

norvernrob

styxd wrote:

NorvernRob wrote:

ddraver wrote:

Sports Science is fun isnt it! Nearly as wishy washy as Geology!

Rob, sounds like over done a tad too much recently and have overtrained/overeached. I did a 175km ride last weekend and at a track session yesterday my legs were STILL shot. I suggest having a week off doing anything much. (Ok you can do slow gentle rides but ask yourself if you actually will be gentle ). Take some time off, clean/service the bike, go shopping, watch that film you ve not got around to watching yet etc

Probably when you start again next week you ll feel like you ve been borrowing Vino's EPO

I wouldn't be gentle - whether I'm walking, cycling, running or driving I can't just potter along. I'll have a rest this week and see how it goes!

There's your problem; poor base fitness.

also, why are you bothering with running if you want to get quicker at cycling? I'd knock it on the head unless you really enjoy it.

And finally, if your quads are always "burning" it suggests to me that perhaps your cycling position isn't quite right. Ideally you want to be recruiting your glutes and hamstrings aswell.

Thanks for the reply, but it doesn't seems like you've read my first post. This isn't normal for me. My legs are fatiguing much quicker than they were just a few weeks ago.

I also had a bike fit with Adrian Timmis 6 weeks ago so I'm happy there's nothing wrong with my position, though I may still be getting used to using muscles slightly differently.

I run because I enjoy it, loads of people do both. I won't be doing any for the next 8 weeks though as I won't have time due to following the training plan on TR.

sloppyschleckonds

How much adaptation time are you allowing switching from turbo to road?

styxd

NorvernRob wrote:

styxd wrote:

NorvernRob wrote:

ddraver wrote:

Sports Science is fun isnt it! Nearly as wishy washy as Geology!

Rob, sounds like over done a tad too much recently and have overtrained/overeached. I did a 175km ride last weekend and at a track session yesterday my legs were STILL shot. I suggest having a week off doing anything much. (Ok you can do slow gentle rides but ask yourself if you actually will be gentle ). Take some time off, clean/service the bike, go shopping, watch that film you ve not got around to watching yet etc

Probably when you start again next week you ll feel like you ve been borrowing Vino's EPO

I wouldn't be gentle - whether I'm walking, cycling, running or driving I can't just potter along. I'll have a rest this week and see how it goes!

There's your problem; poor base fitness.

also, why are you bothering with running if you want to get quicker at cycling? I'd knock it on the head unless you really enjoy it.

And finally, if your quads are always "burning" it suggests to me that perhaps your cycling position isn't quite right. Ideally you want to be recruiting your glutes and hamstrings aswell.

Thanks for the reply, but it doesn't seems like you've read my first post. This isn't normal for me. My legs are fatiguing much quicker than they were just a few weeks ago.

I also had a bike fit with Adrian Timmis 6 weeks ago so I'm happy there's nothing wrong with my position, though I may still be getting used to using muscles slightly differently.

I run because I enjoy it, loads of people do both. I won't be doing any for the next 8 weeks though as I won't have time due to following the training plan on TR.

I did read it. Do you think Wiggo or Froomo do every ride like it's a stage up the Alpe?

No, of course not; at some point, their bodies would crash and they wouldn't be able to perform.