How hard is the hour record?

2

Comments

  • bernithebiker
    bernithebiker Posts: 4,148
    Imposter wrote:
    bernithebiker wrote:
    My point was to clarify what 'creating your own wind resistance' meant.

    I can only assume that in some way he meant you're creating your own headwind.

    Not saying it's going to do anything for your average speed, but I would imagine you could measure air movement within the stadium, created by bike and rider.

    Unless you ride in a vacuum (as okgo pointed out), there will be air resistance, obviously - but there are lots of equations for this already. Air will obviously move as you ride through it, but you will not create some kind of whirlwind effect by riding around a 250m track at 50kph. That would be bizarre.

    OK, still doesn't explain what 'creating your own wind resistance' means but not to worry.

    No one said whirlwind, but there is a difference in totally still air and air that has been disturbed by a moving object. For the air in a velodrome to be TOTALLY still, no significant object should move in it for some time.

    But the main advantages of being a velodrome are;
    a) almost totally still air compared to outside where there will be much more air movement and turbulence, even on a still day
    b) very low rolling resistance
    c) higher temperatures inside (often deliberately so) to reduce air density
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    bernithebiker wrote:
    OK, still doesn't explain what 'creating your own wind resistance' means but not to worry.

    The air is 'still' inside a velodrome - but you still have to move it out the way as you ride through it - and the faster you go, the harder that becomes - ie the air is still a resisting force. You get that, don't you? I suspect that is what was meant.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,317
    Bar Shaker wrote:
    Alex Dowsett is in serious training for The Hour, this year. I'm pretty sure he is doing it at the Stratford Velodrome.

    I wouldn't bet against him.

    Isn't Bobridge doing it before him? The Aussie seems a more credible candidate. On a world stage Dowsett has been outclassed by many you would bet against
    left the forum March 2023
  • markhewitt1978
    markhewitt1978 Posts: 7,614
    What would happen if all of the air was pumped out of the velodrome and the cyclist was outfitted with some sort of pressure suit to survive? I suspect they might need to change to airless tyres too? But would still go super fast?
  • bernithebiker
    bernithebiker Posts: 4,148
    Imposter wrote:
    bernithebiker wrote:
    OK, still doesn't explain what 'creating your own wind resistance' means but not to worry.

    The air is 'still' inside a velodrome - but you still have to move it out the way as you ride through it - and the faster you go, the harder that becomes - ie the air is still a resisting force. You get that, don't you? I suspect that is what was meant.

    Maybe, but kind of stating the obvious isn't it?
  • bernithebiker
    bernithebiker Posts: 4,148
    markhewitt1978 wrote:
    What would happen if all of the air was pumped out of the velodrome and the cyclist was outfitted with some sort of pressure suit to survive? I suspect they might need to change to airless tyres too? But would still go super fast?

    If you could create a vacuum in the velodrome, the only limiting factor to your speed would be rolling resistance.

    Therefore your average speed would be extremely high, without doing any calcs, I would guess something like 80km/h or more. Especially if the rider were breathing oxygen rich air from his 'aqualung'...... :D
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    bernithebiker wrote:
    Imposter wrote:
    bernithebiker wrote:
    OK, still doesn't explain what 'creating your own wind resistance' means but not to worry.

    The air is 'still' inside a velodrome - but you still have to move it out the way as you ride through it - and the faster you go, the harder that becomes - ie the air is still a resisting force. You get that, don't you? I suspect that is what was meant.

    Maybe, but kind of stating the obvious isn't it?

    Yes it is. But we still seem to be discussing it...
  • desweller
    desweller Posts: 5,175
    Maybe aerodynamic losses from rotating wheels & cranks? They are unlikely to resolve as a function of your airspeed.

    I wonder if a rider can find an advantage by training to develop power at low cadence?
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  • graeme_s-2
    graeme_s-2 Posts: 3,382
    DesWeller wrote:
    I wonder if a rider can find an advantage by training to develop power at low cadence?
    I think some testers already do this. Didn't Obree generally grind a massive gear with a low cadence?
  • desweller
    desweller Posts: 5,175
    If anyone would have found a gain there it would have been him.

    I think these aero losses have been quantified in a wind tunnel but can't be bothered to look...that's how I would read 'making your own wind resistance', anyway.
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  • ai_1
    ai_1 Posts: 3,060
    edited January 2015
    "making your own air resistance" is clearly gibberish, no offence. I presume the poster mis-spoke and had something else in mind?
    Whether you're indoors or outdoors has no impact on fluid mechanics. It only effects the ambient conditions.

    However, regarding the hypothetical of doing this in a vaccum: You can be sure the hour would be much higher than 80km/h. Rolling resistance on a smooth surface would be very low and with all other losses removed from the equation the max speed would be extremely high. I suspect tyre grip would be the limiting factor unless you made the velodrome steeper and stresses on the rider due to riding the turns at high speeds may become a problem if thereafter. If these issues were addressed I'm quite sure the max speed would be a lot higher than the 80km/h suggested. Don't aerodynamic (faired) bikes already achieve in excess of 90km/h for the hour? (not sure if this is in a velodrome or not)
  • MountainMonster
    MountainMonster Posts: 7,423
    Ai_1 wrote:
    "making your own air resistance" is clearly gibberish, no offence. I presume the poster mis-spoke and had something else in mind?
    Whether you're indoors or outdoors has no impact on fluid mechanics. It only effects the ambient conditions.

    Wouldn't the fluid mechanics be at a considerably lower scale of effect within the velodrome though, as you wouldn't have to battle the wind quite as much?
    My London Road
  • ai_1
    ai_1 Posts: 3,060
    MountainMonster wrote:
    Ai_1 wrote:
    "making your own air resistance" is clearly gibberish, no offence. I presume the poster mis-spoke and had something else in mind?
    Whether you're indoors or outdoors has no impact on fluid mechanics. It only effects the ambient conditions.

    Wouldn't the fluid mechanics be at a considerably lower scale of effect within the velodrome though, as you wouldn't have to battle the wind quite as much?
    The effect of air in producing drag, propulsion or any other effects will depend on the movement, density and composition of the ambient air but the rules governing these (i.e. fluid mechanics) will not change. So still air at a given density and composition outdoors will be the same as still air at the same density and composition outdoors.
  • HebdenBiker
    HebdenBiker Posts: 787
    I love this thread. It's both completely stupid and highly informative, all at the same time :D
    My Blog
  • Daz555
    Daz555 Posts: 3,976
    markhewitt1978 wrote:
    What would happen if all of the air was pumped out of the velodrome and the cyclist was outfitted with some sort of pressure suit to survive? I suspect they might need to change to airless tyres too? But would still go super fast?
    Hour record for faired recumbents is over 91km. This alone illustrates that it's all about hitting less air.
    You only need two tools: WD40 and Duck Tape.
    If it doesn't move and should, use the WD40.
    If it shouldn't move and does, use the tape.
  • devhads
    devhads Posts: 236
    The air is 'still' inside a velodrome - but you still have to move it out the way as you ride through it - and the faster you go, the harder that becomes - ie the air is still a resisting force. You get that, don't you? I suspect that is what was meant.

    This. Apologies for talking gibberish before but it's been a 25 years since I did my Physics GCSE.
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,435
    Ai_1 wrote:
    However, regarding the hypothetical of doing this in a vaccum: You can be sure the hour would be much higher than 80km/h. Rolling resistance on a smooth surface would be very low and with all other losses removed from the equation the max speed would be extremely high. I suspect tyre grip would be the limiting factor unless you made the velodrome steeper and stresses on the rider due to riding the turns at high speeds may become a problem if thereafter. If these issues were addressed I'm quite sure the max speed would be a lot higher than the 80km/h suggested. Don't aerodynamic (faired) bikes already achieve in excess of 90km/h for the hour? (not sure if this is in a velodrome or not)

    http://what-if.xkcd.com/116/

    Similar-ish situation (car round longer track instead of bike round shorter track) and covers the G-force type issues. I'm sure you could apply the same physics to a bicycle rider :D
  • devhads
    devhads Posts: 236
    bernithebiker wrote:
    Imposter wrote:
    bernithebiker wrote:
    OK, still doesn't explain what 'creating your own wind resistance' means but not to worry.

    The air is 'still' inside a velodrome - but you still have to move it out the way as you ride through it - and the faster you go, the harder that becomes - ie the air is still a resisting force. You get that, don't you? I suspect that is what was meant.

    Maybe, but kind of stating the obvious isn't it?

    I know it is stating the obvious but the original poster made a point of saying that being in a velodrome you wouldn't have to cope with the blustery winds. I just wanted to make a point that there is still air in the velodrome that you have to push through. So I mis-spoke as someone kindly pointed out but the fact is that anyone who's ridden in a velodrome knows that you do get a feeling of 'wind' when cycling at 50kmh even though there is no wind inside.

    As to the original point, assuming he's not gone in a 19 mile straight line on an industrial estate he would have had a tailwind at some point and have been freewheeling at some point, two things you wouldn't get or do on a track. I race cyclocross for an hour and that's very hard work but after doing a flying lap at that speed I doubt if I could do another one at the same speed nevermind another 204
  • bernithebiker
    bernithebiker Posts: 4,148
    devhads wrote:
    bernithebiker wrote:
    Imposter wrote:
    bernithebiker wrote:
    OK, still doesn't explain what 'creating your own wind resistance' means but not to worry.

    The air is 'still' inside a velodrome - but you still have to move it out the way as you ride through it - and the faster you go, the harder that becomes - ie the air is still a resisting force. You get that, don't you? I suspect that is what was meant.

    Maybe, but kind of stating the obvious isn't it?

    I know it is stating the obvious but the original poster made a point of saying that being in a velodrome you wouldn't have to cope with the blustery winds. I just wanted to make a point that there is still air in the velodrome that you have to push through. So I mis-spoke as someone kindly pointed out but the fact is that anyone who's ridden in a velodrome knows that you do get a feeling of 'wind' when cycling at 50kmh even though there is no wind inside.

    As to the original point, assuming he's not gone in a 19 mile straight line on an industrial estate he would have had a tailwind at some point and have been freewheeling at some point, two things you wouldn't get or do on a track. I race cyclocross for an hour and that's very hard work but after doing a flying lap at that speed I doubt if I could do another one at the same speed nevermind another 204

    OK fair enough. There is indeed still air in the velodrome, so air resistance is the overriding issue.

    As already suggested, the only way to avoid it would be to create a vacuum inside.

    But to do that you would need;

    a) a really very big and powerful pump
    b) an airtight velodrome
    c) extremely strong reinforced walls and roof to stop them collapsing from external air pressure.
    d) breathing apparatus for the rider.

    So not gonna happen really. Shame.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    bernithebiker wrote:
    d) breathing apparatus for the rider.

    and the UCI timekeeper, + media, support crew, etc. Or they could just open a window....
  • bernithebiker
    bernithebiker Posts: 4,148
    Imposter wrote:
    bernithebiker wrote:
    d) breathing apparatus for the rider.

    Or they could just open a window....

    Inadvisable. The sudden dramatic re-compression of the interior would most likely pop their eyeballs out.
  • wishitwasallflat
    wishitwasallflat Posts: 2,927
    Do it on the moon and careful control over diet pre ride should stop any
    feeling of 'wind
    - although one end would lead to
    'creating your own wind resistance'
    while the other would propel.

    Depending on digestive transit maybe sprouts are go?
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,317
    bernithebiker wrote:
    devhads wrote:
    bernithebiker wrote:
    Imposter wrote:
    bernithebiker wrote:
    OK, still doesn't explain what 'creating your own wind resistance' means but not to worry.

    The air is 'still' inside a velodrome - but you still have to move it out the way as you ride through it - and the faster you go, the harder that becomes - ie the air is still a resisting force. You get that, don't you? I suspect that is what was meant.

    Maybe, but kind of stating the obvious isn't it?

    I know it is stating the obvious but the original poster made a point of saying that being in a velodrome you wouldn't have to cope with the blustery winds. I just wanted to make a point that there is still air in the velodrome that you have to push through. So I mis-spoke as someone kindly pointed out but the fact is that anyone who's ridden in a velodrome knows that you do get a feeling of 'wind' when cycling at 50kmh even though there is no wind inside.

    As to the original point, assuming he's not gone in a 19 mile straight line on an industrial estate he would have had a tailwind at some point and have been freewheeling at some point, two things you wouldn't get or do on a track. I race cyclocross for an hour and that's very hard work but after doing a flying lap at that speed I doubt if I could do another one at the same speed nevermind another 204

    OK fair enough. There is indeed still air in the velodrome, so air resistance is the overriding issue.

    As already suggested, the only way to avoid it would be to create a vacuum inside.

    But to do that you would need;

    a) a really very big and powerful pump
    b) an airtight velodrome
    c) extremely strong reinforced walls and roof to stop them collapsing from external air pressure.
    d) breathing apparatus for the rider.

    So not gonna happen really. Shame.

    People used to travel to Mexico city to reduce the air drag... obviously they also needed to inject bags of blood to increase the hematocrit and be able to breath at that altitude during an hour of intense effort... Moser was one of the first to use transfusions, as supervised by Conconi... at the time they weren't even illegal... go figure!
    left the forum March 2023
  • Wunnunda
    Wunnunda Posts: 214
    wishitwasallflat wrote:
    Do it on the moon and careful control over diet pre ride should stop any
    feeling of 'wind
    - although one end would lead to
    'creating your own wind resistance'
    while the other would propel.

    Depending on digestive transit maybe sprouts are go?
    Surely there is a UCI rule about this kind of performance enhancement?
  • desweller
    desweller Posts: 5,175
    'Bringing the sport into disrepute' ought to cover it.
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  • ai_1
    ai_1 Posts: 3,060
    bernithebiker wrote:
    devhads wrote:
    bernithebiker wrote:
    Imposter wrote:
    bernithebiker wrote:
    OK, still doesn't explain what 'creating your own wind resistance' means but not to worry.

    The air is 'still' inside a velodrome - but you still have to move it out the way as you ride through it - and the faster you go, the harder that becomes - ie the air is still a resisting force. You get that, don't you? I suspect that is what was meant.

    Maybe, but kind of stating the obvious isn't it?

    I know it is stating the obvious but the original poster made a point of saying that being in a velodrome you wouldn't have to cope with the blustery winds. I just wanted to make a point that there is still air in the velodrome that you have to push through. So I mis-spoke as someone kindly pointed out but the fact is that anyone who's ridden in a velodrome knows that you do get a feeling of 'wind' when cycling at 50kmh even though there is no wind inside.

    As to the original point, assuming he's not gone in a 19 mile straight line on an industrial estate he would have had a tailwind at some point and have been freewheeling at some point, two things you wouldn't get or do on a track. I race cyclocross for an hour and that's very hard work but after doing a flying lap at that speed I doubt if I could do another one at the same speed nevermind another 204

    OK fair enough. There is indeed still air in the velodrome, so air resistance is the overriding issue.

    As already suggested, the only way to avoid it would be to create a vacuum inside.

    But to do that you would need;

    a) a really very big and powerful pump
    b) an airtight velodrome
    c) extremely strong reinforced walls and roof to stop them collapsing from external air pressure.
    d) breathing apparatus for the rider.
    e) cooling apparatus for the rider

    So not gonna happen really. Shame.
  • class5700
    class5700 Posts: 65
    I'm with the OP. really don't think it's a big deal.

    all you have to do is find a long enough hill.

    and start at the top. :D
  • keezx
    keezx Posts: 1,322
    Ther are lots of ordinary cyclists who struggle to do 51 KM/h average on a decent.....
  • timothyw
    timothyw Posts: 2,482
    Anyone interested in having a go might want to start by trying to match/best David Millar's unofficial Richmond Park one lap record:
    http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/lat ... cord-51396
    13 minutes 35 seconds/47.63kmh.

    And remember he did that as a one off bit of fun, rather than the months of preparation that go into an actual hour attempt.

    The pro's are on a different planet to us mere mortals.
  • bernithebiker
    bernithebiker Posts: 4,148
    TimothyW wrote:
    Anyone interested in having a go might want to start by trying to match/best David Millar's unofficial Richmond Park one lap record:

    Watch out, if you're any good, you'll get a speeding fine.*



    *True!

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