Charlie Hebdo

Frank the tank

Ballysmate wrote:

Koran or Bible.

Both Bollox

Bloody hell Bally we agree again.

ballysmate

Who said lightning couldn't strike twice?

mamba80

Joelsim wrote:

What it boils down to is a total lack of tolerance or understanding by extremists on both sides. It's disgusting.

what extremists on the "other side" ? LePen and Farage or even more right wing elements are not going around Shooting, bombing, beheading, summary executions, kidnap of school children or anything like it.

there is no such thing as a moderate muslim, such a person is NOT a muslim, the Koran is not like the bible with a new and old testament, with entirely different teachings, the Koran offers no such comprimise.
Look at Israel, Hamas does not wish to live along side Israel, their sole aim is its destruction and like wise the west, they despise and hate us and the sooner the west wakes up to this the better.

mr_goo

It is very telling about the state of western politics and its attitude to Islam, when the Obama administration did not even acknowledge that the attack on Charlie Hebdo offices was committed by Islamic terrorists. They were simply labelled terrorists. There is a great fear amongst western leaders in tackling Islam/Muslims and it is starting to drive some of the politics and policies that we have to live under.

With the continuation of attacks on western society by the 'extreme element' of Muslims, where is the uprising of peaceful/moderate muslims? Those that decry the atrocities and state that the attacks have nothing to do with Islam are still silent and cower for fear of offending their religion. Why have they not taken to the streets in their thousands/10s thousands/100s thousands/millions and formed their own sect within the religion? To me this is very telling of the mind set of followers of Islam.

slowmart

mamba80 wrote:

Joelsim wrote:

What it boils down to is a total lack of tolerance or understanding by extremists on both sides. It's disgusting.

what extremists on the "other side" ? LePen and Farage or even more right wing elements are not going around Shooting, bombing, beheading, summary executions, kidnap of school children or anything like it.

there is no such thing as a moderate muslim, such a person is NOT a muslim, the Koran is not like the bible with a new and old testament, with entirely different teachings, the Koran offers no such comprimise.
Look at Israel, Hamas does not wish to live along side Israel, their sole aim is its destruction and like wise the west, they despise and hate us and the sooner the west wakes up to this the better.

Wow, you seem to have a clear grasp of the facts. :roll:

slowmart

Mr Goo wrote:

It is very telling about the state of western politics and its attitude to Islam, when the Obama administration did not even acknowledge that the attack on Charlie Hebdo offices was committed by Islamic terrorists. They were simply labelled terrorists. There is a great fear amongst western leaders in tackling Islam/Muslims and it is starting to drive some of the politics and policies that we have to live under.

With the continuation of attacks on western society by the 'extreme element' of Muslims, where is the uprising of peaceful/moderate muslims? Those that decry the atrocities and state that the attacks have nothing to do with Islam are still silent and cower for fear of offending their religion. Why have they not taken to the streets in their thousands/10s thousands/100s thousands/millions and formed their own sect within the religion? To me this is very telling of the mind set of followers of Islam.

One of the police officers who was killed was Muslim.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehous ... -shooting/

And ISIS are killing Muslims just as quickly as christians or anyone who doesn't submit to their rule.

mr_goo

mamba80 wrote:

Joelsim wrote:

What it boils down to is a total lack of tolerance or understanding by extremists on both sides. It's disgusting.

what extremists on the "other side" ? LePen and Farage or even more right wing elements are not going around Shooting, bombing, beheading, summary executions, kidnap of school children or anything like it.

there is no such thing as a moderate muslim, such a person is NOT a muslim, the Koran is not like the bible with a new and old testament, with entirely different teachings, the Koran offers no such comprimise.
Look at Israel, Hamas does not wish to live along side Israel, their sole aim is its destruction and like wise the west, they despise and hate us and the sooner the west wakes up to this the better.

I agree entirely. Western governments need to acknowledge that the religion of Islam is not moderate and that it's core belief systems are at total odds with those of evolved, modern, civilised democracies. How can the UK for example promote, tolerance, equality of sexes and sexual orientation, yet accept into the fold of it's democracy a religion that promotes the subjugation of females, to the extent that it is written in the Quran that it is acceptable to beat your wife. Or accept a religion that encourages the execution of homosexuals, yet this country has made incredible strides in this area. I just do not understand what is going on with Western democracy and the current stand point it is taking with Islam.

The Quran was written by one person alone The Prophet Mohammed, unlike the Bible (Old/New Testament) or the Torah. This is why muslims take offence to cartoons lampooning Mohammed. They see it as a slight on the author of their beliefs and way of life. Mohammed did write passages extolling the virtues of peace/goodwill. However he also states that any contradictory passages should abrogate those. Therefore that is why there is a rise in extremism and terror attacks. They may have been fomented by geopolitical activity ie Iraq/Afghanistan/Israel, but really they are just enacting what the teachings of the Quran tell them. Which is intolerance to non believers which is ultimately paid for with our lives.

Je Suis Charlie. (I will be looking on with great interest to see what happens on Monday night in Germany)

ddraver

I got off the train and the big screen in the Station in The Hague just had this up



Fair Play Netherlands!

thegreatdivide

Judaism is also a load of old bollocks and Isreal is just as fuxked up as Hamas. Oh hang on, I'm not allowed to say that because it makes me anti Semetic and a Hollocaust denyer. What a load of tosh. It's anothet fantasy belief based round a different style of hat.

rick_chasey

ddraver wrote:

I got off the train and the big screen in the Station in The Hague just had this up



Fair Play Netherlands!

Runs deeper there because of Theo van Gogh.

ddraver

Yup, I have to say I think that the Europe Press has dealt with this much better than the UK

(as far as I can tell from looking at the front pages on the newstands)

rick_chasey

ddraver wrote:

Yup, I have to say I think that the Europe Press has dealt with this much better than the UK

(as far as I can tell from looking at the front pages on the newstands)

Is also a bit of a cultural thing. It's about the only thing that really is sacred in Holland - the right to voice your opinion.

Can be as simple as getting a new haircut and your co-worker saying straight faced ' i preferred your old haircut' (because they do) , to giving your opinion on faith and multiculturalism.

Sure you've been at the receiving end of some of that Dutch opinion .

mr_goo

ddraver wrote:

Yup, I have to say I think that the Europe Press has dealt with this much better than the UK

(as far as I can tell from looking at the front pages on the newstands)

I reckon that the UK press have been suppressed. Though they have to strongly deny this and claim that the freedom of speech, gives them the freedom to choose what to publish.

ddraver

Rick Chasey wrote:

ddraver wrote:

Yup, I have to say I think that the Europe Press has dealt with this much better than the UK

(as far as I can tell from looking at the front pages on the newstands)

Is also a bit of a cultural thing. It's about the only thing that really is sacred in Holland - the right to voice your opinion.

Can be as simple as getting a new haircut and your co-worker saying straight faced ' i preferred your old haircut' (because they do) , to giving your opinion on faith and multiculturalism.

Sure you've been at the receiving end of some of that Dutch opinion .

Tinder is brutal over here man!

mr_goo

I shall sleep soundly tonight in the knowledge that nearly every front page of the Friday UK papers have the headlines that MI5 predicts an imminent attack and there is nothing they can do to stop it.

pinno

Shouldn't the 5m peaceful Muslims in France oust those who advocate violence?

ballysmate

pinarello001 wrote:

Shouldn't the 5m peaceful Muslims in France oust those who advocate violence?

You would hope so

finchy

pinarello001 wrote:

Shouldn't the 5m peaceful Muslims in France oust those who advocate violence?

That would mean co-operating with the state. And distrust of the police among France's ethnic minorities runs very, very high.

ballysmate

'There is a very strong argument that says that what happened in Paris today is a result - and we've seen it in London too - is a result I'm afraid of now having a fifth column living within these countries.
'We've got people living in these countries, holding our passports, who hate us.'

Nigel Farage



Not a Farage supporter but difficult to argue otherwise.

ddraver

Ballysmate wrote:

'There is a very strong argument that says that what happened in Paris today is a result - and we've seen it in London too - is a result I'm afraid of now having a fifth column living within these countries.
'We've got people living in these countries, holding our passports, who hate us.'

Nigel Farage



Not a Farage supporter but difficult to argue otherwise.

It's a nice quote but as with everything from Farage it's a good articulation of a minor problem but with absolutely no realistic SOLUTION to actually solving it

It's like the Bill Bailey routine about the "Are you a terrorist" question on a US immigration form

ballysmate

ddraver wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

'There is a very strong argument that says that what happened in Paris today is a result - and we've seen it in London too - is a result I'm afraid of now having a fifth column living within these countries.
'We've got people living in these countries, holding our passports, who hate us.'

Nigel Farage



Not a Farage supporter but difficult to argue otherwise.

It's a nice quote but as with everything from Farage it's a good articulation of a minor problem but with absolutely no realistic SOLUTION to actually solving it



It's like the Bill Bailey routine about the "Are you a terrorist" question on a US immigration form

Minor problem????!!!
Ostrich, head, sand.

ddraver

wow, adult debate indeed

pblakeney

joe2008 wrote:

Lyrics

The The 1989

Matt Johnson - Pure class.

mamba80

ddraver wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

'There is a very strong argument that says that what happened in Paris today is a result - and we've seen it in London too - is a result I'm afraid of now having a fifth column living within these countries.
'We've got people living in these countries, holding our passports, who hate us.'

Nigel Farage

Not a Farage supporter but difficult to argue otherwise.

It's a nice quote but as with everything from Farage it's a good articulation of a minor problem but with absolutely no realistic SOLUTION to actually solving it

It's like the Bill Bailey routine about the "Are you a terrorist" question on a US immigration form

Given the on going situation in france, which appears to now be a hostage situation, i doubt anyone can say it is a minor problem for them.
For the UK.... the disaffection of muslim communities, the apparently ease in which 1000's of men can come and go to syria etc, their training in the use of military weapons and an unarmed Police force plus an ever decreasing standing Army.... minor problem?
As for Farage, he is of course making political hay BUT he and others have long been saying mass immigration wont work, the mainstream have gone along with this experiment, which by most measures doesnt work anywhere in europe.
We in the west and esp in the UK have given into Islam and their sensibilities but its not working, the majority still dont integrate, Europe has changed beyond recognition in the last 20 years...for the better? no.

ddraver

It's all thems foreigners fault, could nt possibly be ours

no no no no no no no...

( :roll: )

mamba80

ddraver wrote:

It's all thems foreigners fault, could nt possibly be ours

no no no no no no no...

( :roll: )

wow adult debate indeed

we are where we are, we cannot undo 2 ridiculous wars BUT neither can we carry on importing the worlds eco refugees, who dont want to embrace a somewhat normal european way life into Europe.

ddraver

Meh, if you can't beat them join them. I can be a d1ck too...

Have a look - http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicd ... ly-chart-2

5% of the population is the problem? It doesnt have anything to do with the other 95%?

hmmm.....

cornerblock

PBlakeney wrote:

joe2008 wrote:

Lyrics

The The 1989

Matt Johnson - Pure class.

Great song and quite prophetic really, loved The The. Coincidentally given the horrific events in Paris , Matt Johnson's brother Tom is/was a cartoonist.

tangled_metal

A lot of islamophobia and hatred going on with this thread. hysteria that will die down sooner or later. As terrible as the attack on Hebdo was (and others too) they are the work of extremists within a very small sector of the population of France. It is not the mainstream Islam that does these but usually disaffected outsiders created by the country they are attacking. They are dropouts who want to belong somewhere and that is what those who radicalized them look for. I have no answers for all this just like this thread evidently shows you lot have no answers that have a realist chance of succeeding. I do have one question, what would happen if we changed the lot of those disaffected, disenfranchised people such that they had a future they are happy with? Would the extremists be able to recruit cannon fodder for their petty wars to claim power. That is what is happening, a grasp for power by those at the head or heart of extremist islam. They want power and control and use misinterpretation of the Quran to get it. With these cannon fodder going to fight with IS/ISIS it is about giving them purpose, the same with those terrorists carrying out attacks in the west.

These attackers were dropouts involved in drugs and the edge of mainstream culture. They were weak in many ways and were exploited. I am not justifying them I think they should be hunted down and the full extent of the law applied (not into death penalty but fully expect at least one to die). I do however have an interest in understanding them. Perhaps with a view to the west finding a long term solution. In the UK the security services and police are into re-radicalisation within the young muslim sections of our society. They are working with moderate muslims and former jihadis who have been de-radcalised. This could work if moved forward with social changes perhaps and a better lot for those at the peripheries or bottom of oucr society. Jeez! I sound like a socialist, I'll be advocating distribution of wealth next!!!

Seriously though, does anyone else think that demonising one of the biggest, most established and fastest growing religions is likely to end well? The majority are not the problem only the minority. That and the western created and backed arabic nations with questionable support for islamic groups.

bernithebiker

Tangled Metal wrote:

A lot of islamophobia and hatred going on with this thread. hysteria that will die down sooner or later. As terrible as the attack on Hebdo was (and others too) they are the work of extremists within a very small sector of the population of France. It is not the mainstream Islam that does these but usually disaffected outsiders created by the country they are attacking. They are dropouts who want to belong somewhere and that is what those who radicalized them look for. I have no answers for all this just like this thread evidently shows you lot have no answers that have a realist chance of succeeding. I do have one question, what would happen if we changed the lot of those disaffected, disenfranchised people such that they had a future they are happy with? Would the extremists be able to recruit cannon fodder for their petty wars to claim power. That is what is happening, a grasp for power by those at the head or heart of extremist islam. They want power and control and use misinterpretation of the Quran to get it. With these cannon fodder going to fight with IS/ISIS it is about giving them purpose, the same with those terrorists carrying out attacks in the west.

These attackers were dropouts involved in drugs and the edge of mainstream culture. They were weak in many ways and were exploited. I am not justifying them I think they should be hunted down and the full extent of the law applied (not into death penalty but fully expect at least one to die). I do however have an interest in understanding them. Perhaps with a view to the west finding a long term solution. In the UK the security services and police are into re-radicalisation within the young muslim sections of our society. They are working with moderate muslims and former jihadis who have been de-radcalised. This could work if moved forward with social changes perhaps and a better lot for those at the peripheries or bottom of oucr society. Jeez! I sound like a socialist, I'll be advocating distribution of wealth next!!!

Seriously though, does anyone else think that demonising one of the biggest, most established and fastest growing religions is likely to end well? The majority are not the problem only the minority. That and the western created and backed arabic nations with questionable support for islamic groups.

Is it really such a minority though?

If you polled the citizens of Saudi, Iran, Yemen, etc. as to; 'Do you feel the Charlie attacks were justified?", what response do you think you would have?

I would suggest that a large proportion would be in favour of the attacks, or at least not condemn them, because the Islam in those countries is somewhat extreme.

Whilst such extreme Islam is being practised COUNTRY wide, then for me Islam is indeed part of the problem, as these countries are nurturing extremists bent on attacking us.

IMO Islam needs to modernise and become less extreme, which is happening to an extent in Europe, but not elsewhere.