WTB Cross Wolf

ugo.santalucia

Inner tubes too fat? Mine really went up trouble free (without inner tubes)

luv2ride

Don't think so, have used the same tubes on some Vittoria Randoneur 32's ((which come up small) and Schwalbe Sammy Slicks in 35mm. I did notice the rim tape had "rucked up" a bit so maybe that's getting in the way on the tyre bead seating properly?

EDIT: so riding on them didn't make them sit any better on the rims, both have pronounced humps and the tyre also pulls off centre, despite repeated deflating and pinching of the tyre in order to try and coax the bead to a uniform height above the rim. The rear is worse, and I've also seen that the wheel is well out of true (surely not connected?). The tyres seems to grip brilliantly in the mud, but riding on roads was accompanied with a most unwelcome "bounce" front and back :oops:

In other news, I also completely lost rear braking from my TRP Spyre discs - is it possible the pads got worn out with the mud, grit and water I rode through? They're the original pads (so unsure if organic, sintered, or what). Rear disc also seems not to run true.... annoying.

Tempted to buy another set of the tyres to see if I've got a bad pair?

JoostG

I tested the WTB's today and I'm happy with them. Currently I'm running them at 2.5 bar on my Campa Eurus 2-way fit. After a couple of rides I will try to mount them on some Pacenti SL 23 rims (already tried that but without success).

luv2ride

I emailed Kinesis earlier today about my problem. They confirmed the TCS version on the Crosswolf can be difficult to mount on the CX Disc V3 wheelset (now both OE for their full Crosslight Pro6 full build), and recommended changing the rim tape and/or using washing up liquid on the bead, inflating to 85 psi, then deflating to a more regular pressure. Will give the washing up liquid trick a try. Put my Spesh Tracer Pro's on last night, fitted easily and uniformly :shock: :?

ugo.santalucia

Luv2ride wrote:

I emailed Kinesis earlier today about my problem. They confirmed the TCS version on the Crosswolf can be difficult to mount on the CX Disc V3 wheelset (now both OE for their full Crosslight Pro6 full build), and recommended changing the rim tape and/or using washing up liquid on the bead, inflating to 85 psi, then deflating to a more regular pressure. Will give the washing up liquid trick a try. Put my Spesh Tracer Pro's on last night, fitted easily and uniformly :shock: :?

They are tubeless tyres... use them tubeless and they'll be fine. If you really need to fit an inner tube, try using a tiny road one... but why do you want to use inner tubes?

tgotb

Whatever you do, *don't* use a road inner tube with a CX tyre. One guy in our club couldn't work out why he was getting so many more punctures than anyone else; turned out he was using road inner tubes. In a CX tyre they're stretched too thin to be robust enough.

Latex tubes are reckoned to be more robust, but if my experience of fitting them to road wheels is anything to go by they're a pain to fit, especially if the tyre is a tight fit anyway.

Tubeless is a faff, but definitely worth the effort. In the meantime, stick with proper CX tubes, and try the soapy water tricks instead.

ugo.santalucia

TGOTB wrote:

Whatever you do, *don't* use a road inner tube with a CX tyre. One guy in our club couldn't work out why he was getting so many more punctures than anyone else; turned out he was using road inner tubes. In a CX tyre they're stretched too thin to be robust enough.

Once an object has pierced through the tyre carcass, it will puncture the inner tube, regardless of how stretched or not it is. The hole might end up being bigger, more like a tear than a pin prick, I give you that... the net result is the same. A road inner tube rated for 28 works absolutely fine on a 32 tyre... I have used one for years.

TGOTB wrote:

Latex tubes are reckoned to be more robust, but if my experience of fitting them to road wheels is anything to go by they're a pain to fit, especially if the tyre is a tight fit anyway.

I have tubular with latex inners... do they puncture less than other tyres? Not really, if you go out in the wet you have more than 50% chances of puncturing a road tubular with latex inner just as well. They might resist snake bite better, but for intrusion they are neither better nor worse. They are indeed harder to fit without pinching, hence not advisable to the OP

TGOTB wrote:

Tubeless is a faff, but definitely worth the effort. In the meantime, stick with proper CX tubes, and try the soapy water tricks instead.

It is a faff because you use non tubeless rims and tyres, but a tubeless tyre on a tubeless rim goes up in zero time and it's generally air tight even without sealant, which is only added as a precaution for punctures and to improve air-tightness. The WTB in question gave me zero grief... I think the all fitting process including sealant took me 15 minutes. The soapy water trick is indeed very useful, just make sure you don't leave a pint of water inside the tyre as it might make your sealant ineffective

tgotb

ugo.santalucia wrote:

TGOTB wrote:

Whatever you do, *don't* use a road inner tube with a CX tyre. One guy in our club couldn't work out why he was getting so many more punctures than anyone else; turned out he was using road inner tubes. In a CX tyre they're stretched too thin to be robust enough.

Once an object has pierced through the tyre carcass, it will puncture the inner tube, regardless of how stretched or not it is. The hole might end up being bigger, more like a tear than a pin prick, I give you that... the net result is the same. A road inner tube rated for 28 works absolutely fine on a 32 tyre... I have used one for years.

TGOTB wrote:

Latex tubes are reckoned to be more robust, but if my experience of fitting them to road wheels is anything to go by they're a pain to fit, especially if the tyre is a tight fit anyway.

I have tubular with latex inners... do they puncture less than other tyres? Not really, if you go out in the wet you have more than 50% chances of puncturing a road tubular with latex inner just as well. They might resist snake bite better, but for intrusion they are neither better nor worse. They are indeed harder to fit without pinching, hence not advisable to the OP

:roll:

If you ride with an inner tube at typical CX pressures, the vast majority of your punctures are going to be pinch flats. You can avoid this by running a higher pressure than everyone else, but if you do this you will have less grip and either go slowly or fall off more frequently. Using either a thicker butyl tube or a latex tube will increase your resistance to pinch flats.

ugo.santalucia wrote:

TGOTB wrote:

Tubeless is a faff, but definitely worth the effort. In the meantime, stick with proper CX tubes, and try the soapy water tricks instead.

It is a faff because you use non tubeless rims and tyres

Erm... No I don't. I race primarily on tubs, and train (and occasionally race) on tubeless clincher rims that are specifically designed to be used tubeless. I find them very reliable, and have ridden them well below 20psi on occasion. However they *are* more of a faff to set up than conventional inner tubes, and even the best setups can be susceptible to burps at low pressures.

ugo.santalucia

TGOTB wrote:

Erm... No I don't. I race primarily on tubs, and train (and occasionally race) on tubeless clincher rims that are specifically designed to be used tubeless. I find them very reliable, and have ridden them well below 20psi on occasion. However they *are* more of a faff to set up than conventional inner tubes, and even the best setups can be susceptible to burps at low pressures.

If I understood correctly from previous posts, you don't run tubeless tyres, but normal clinchers converted (Clement, Michelin etc...). I did try these too and work OK, but not as well as tyres which are designed to be tubeless. Admittedly I have never used pressures below 20 PSI, but the WTB in question at 25 PSI or so are a doddle to set up and run.
The faff is sometimes due to collaterals, like leaking valves and ruptured tape... the process of going tubeless itself is very simple. Remember I was a skeptic up to 18 months ago...

luv2ride

Interesting comments guys. The washing up liquid was largely successful, but there is a still a portion of one side of the tyre where the bead fouls the rim tape, and won't sit properly. Replacement Velox rim tape has now been ordered as recommended by Kinesis. Tempted to go for a proper tubeless wheelset but finances are likely to prevent this for some months yet, hence why I need to run these with inner tubes first. I can then use the CX disc wheelset as road wheels shod with Sammy slicks or Randoneur Pros. That was the plan anyhows...

ugo.santalucia

The Kinesis have tubeless rims I seem to recall... if you use a tight fit tyre you do need a tubeless rim tape, whether you use an inner tube or not. Fit Stans... I think Velox will just make things worse

tgotb

ugo.santalucia wrote:

The Kinesis have tubeless rims I seem to recall... if you use a tight fit tyre you do need a tubeless rim tape, whether you use an inner tube or not. Fit Stans... I think Velox will just make things worse

^ this. You just need a wrap of the yellow Stan's tape, or equivalent. Velox will also make it harder to lever the tyre onto the rim.

luv2ride

:shock:
Cheers, any recommendation on the width of Stan's tape to use? The Velox tape I ordered was 22mm I think (as recommended by Kinesis :? )

ugo.santalucia

Measure the internal width with a Vernier (or read the measurement on the rim is present... something along the lines of 19 x 622) ... I would say if it is >19 mm use 25 mm Stans, if it is <19 mm, then use the 21 mm

luv2ride

Based on the above advice (internal rim width = 20mm, external = 35mm) I've ordered some Stans 25mm rim tape, 1 x pint of sealant, and also a pair of valves. All arrived today so wish me luck! Can see me going for a second set of disc wheels for road duties at some point though. cheers

karldh

I also bought a pair of 32c Cross Wolf and intend to go tubeless very soon with them on archetype and a kinlin xr270 rim, thought I would just put the tyres on with tubes in on these rims just as a short term measure and to put them into shape.
I have had a hell of a job to get the tyres on the rims and had to resort to tyre levers and brute force, now have bruised palms! Looked at technique videos online and used a bit of washing up liquid on bead but hardest tyres to fit I have ever come across.pushed tyre into centre of rim all way round to gain slack but still incredibly hard
Am I doing something wrong

JoostG

karldh wrote:

I also bought a pair of 32c Cross Wolf and intend to go tubeless very soon with them on archetype and a kinlin xr270 rim, thought I would just put the tyres on with tubes in on these rims just as a short term measure and to put them into shape.
I have had a hell of a job to get the tyres on the rims and had to resort to tyre levers and brute force, now have bruised palms! Looked at technique videos online and used a bit of washing up liquid on bead but hardest tyres to fit I have ever come across.pushed tyre into centre of rim all way round to gain slack but still incredibly hard
Am I doing something wrong

Haha, no one told you it would be easy.

I'm still struggling with the WTB's. I have a set Pacenti to mount the WTB's on. First try I immediately realized that it was going to be a though one. So I decided to mount them on another set tubeless rims, to try later again. And tonight I did..... the front rim wasn't a problem, but the back, ahhhhh. So this weekend I will ride different wheels and give it afterwards another shot. Pffff....

ugo.santalucia

I fitted mine no problem... I fitted a pair to a friend and one went on no problem but the other was a bit too loose to go tubeless... so opposite issue really... could not build pressure

I am surprised you find them hard to fit, they seem pretty casual fit as tubeless tyres go

karldh

Well on the bright side mine should seal up as tubeless easily!!

JoostG

ugo.santalucia wrote:

I fitted mine no problem... I fitted a pair to a friend and one went on no problem but the other was a bit too loose to go tubeless... so opposite issue really... could not build pressure

I am surprised you find them hard to fit, they seem pretty casual fit as tubeless tyres go

I've done a fair portion of tubeless set ups, so I'm getting better. In this particular case the front wasn't a problem at all, but the back. Why? That will be because of a combination of a couple of things: not a single tyre is the same, so a mm less or more will make a difference. The pacenti's are wider than the tubeless rims I used before, and are more shallow. I guess the combination of all, makes it hard. I'm confident that a couple of rides with the WTB on a different rim is going to make the difference.

And I know that in the end all the hardship offers me great benefits while riding the bike

luv2ride

A quick update. First chance this morning to try and convert my CXDs to tubeless. First wrap of rim tape = quite a few air bubbles. However, tyre seated fine and inflated to 85psi no problems, although air escaped when I dropped to normal pressures. A mate said he left his at higher pressure overnight, so decided to try that. Second wrap of rim tape went on much better, very few air bubbles. But, tyre sat much looser on the rear wheel and was difficult to get seated initially. Got it up to 85psi though and currently hoping the sealant is doing its thing after lots of tumbling, tapping and shaking!

One thing I noticed was that the tape I got (Stan's 9,14m x 25mm) was just about long enough for two wraps of a front and rear 700cc wheel, not the four it was advertised as being sufficient for (Stans video recommended going round the rim twice.

Here's hoping it works! How long should I leave the wheels until i drop to a more normal 30psi?

ugo.santalucia

Luv2ride wrote:

A quick update. First chance this morning to try and convert my CXDs to tubeless. First wrap of rim tape = quite a few air bubbles. However, tyre seated fine and inflated to 85psi no problems, although air escaped when I dropped to normal pressures. A mate said he left his at higher pressure overnight, so decided to try that. Second wrap of rim tape went on much better, very few air bubbles. But, tyre sat much looser on the rear wheel and was difficult to get seated initially. Got it up to 85psi though and currently hoping the sealant is doing its thing after lots of tumbling, tapping and shaking!

One thing I noticed was that the tape I got (Stan's 9,14m x 25mm) was just about long enough for two wraps of a front and rear 700cc wheel, not the four it was advertised as being sufficient for (Stans video recommended going round the rim twice.

Here's hoping it works! How long should I leave the wheels until i drop to a more normal 30psi?

Sounds right... the tape is 9 metres, a wrap is just over 2, so you get 2 x 2 wheels and a bit of extra for repairs. If you got the tyre on and inflated, your only enemy is the valve... sometimes valves leak air... I would tighten the ring with a pair of pliers (just one quarter of a turn or you won't be able to get it off without the pliers). The longer the sealant stays in, the more airtight they become... typically it takes a couple of days to get optimal seal... but you can ride them after 12-24 hours if they haven't lost too much.

luv2ride

went out for short spin last night and they seem to hold air ok. Going out shortly on mix of off and on road, so will drop the pressures a little whilst crossing fingers. Like the tip about tightening the valve with pliers, but would be better done at e int of installation rather than risk disturbing the present seal? if so will do that next time.

Taking tubes and levers with me just in case :oops:

ugo.santalucia

I hope you rate not running them at 85 PSI... :shock:

luv2ride

Ran them at 35-40 psi in the end. Held pressure ok and were very impressive over varied terrain. Going to buy another pair if CRC still have them at that price. Had a great ride over to Avebury, Wiltshire, although did finally run out of daylight on return leg and it turned bloomin' cold. Very impressed with the tubeless set up I have to say, more so than my TRP Spyres which weren't great again despite having the pads out for cleaning / deglazing before setting out. Will try new rotors and pads next, as would be nice to have at least some braking power now I know they tyres are ok!

ugo.santalucia

Glad you like them...

andyp

Luv2ride wrote:

Very impressed with the tubeless set up I have to say, more so than my TRP Spyres which weren't great again despite having the pads out for cleaning / deglazing before setting out. Will try new rotors and pads next, as would be nice to have at least some braking power now I know they tyres are ok!

Are you running compressionless cabling? It makes a noticeable difference to the performance of cable discs.

luv2ride

andyp wrote:

Luv2ride wrote:

Very impressed with the tubeless set up I have to say, more so than my TRP Spyres which weren't great again despite having the pads out for cleaning / deglazing before setting out. Will try new rotors and pads next, as would be nice to have at least some braking power now I know they tyres are ok!

Are you running compressionless cabling? It makes a noticeable difference to the performance of cable discs.

I think so, yes. They are the brake outers and cables that came with my SRAM Rival levers. That is, I thought they were compressionless, unless anyone knows any different? Interestingly my riding buddy was on his CAADX with, I think, Promax mechanical disc brakes which seemed to perform flawlessly (lucky him!).

bendertherobot

Something not quite right there. The Spyre are very highly rated so they should be ok!

luv2ride

bendertherobot wrote:

Something not quite right there. The Spyre are very highly rated so they should be ok!

yup, that's why I bought them over BB7's. Have also posted under "Workshop" to see if anyone has any ideas...

bike hasn't had tonnes of off-road use so cables shouldn't be that crudded up yet, but rear braking has always needed the lever up against the bar (with the pads only a millimetre each side of the rotor), to the extent that the shift lever sometimes fouls the bar tape. With it being super tacky Lizard Skins DSP the lever can "stick" to the bar after braking :shock: :?

EDIT: On closer inspection, I see the long run of rear brake cable outer is actually Shimano M series housing (I remember the LBS saying the SRAM outer that came with the OE cable and shifters wasn't long enough for a single run). The LBS clearly supplied their own. I take it this outer isn't ideal for mechanical disc brakes?