Factory wheels v H Plus Son Archetype hand built

2

Comments

  • type:epyt wrote:
    Crikey, folks make this complicated ... OP has a lower end (but still very good frame) bike and wants a cheap(ish) wheel upgrade to sort out the (obviously) weakest link on his bike. Solution, buy a set of factory built wheels which he likes the look of, have decent reviews and can be bought at a discount which gives him bang for his £200.

    Unless weight is an issue (human or carried load) there's no need to go 'bespoke' at that level of bike/price.

    That is very true... however, a decent set of wheels can be re-used on a new bike... given mid to high end bikes are fitted with bog standard wheels anyway these days. The idea is that something bespoke is bound to last longer and therefore make this possible
    left the forum March 2023
  • ^ I agree, but at the price point the OP is talking he's already compromising on the hubs and likely the spokes too so would likely want more when moving up the bike chain (so to speak) ...
    Life is unfair, kill yourself or get over it.
  • type:epyt wrote:
    ^ I agree, but at the price point the OP is talking he's already compromising on the hubs and likely the spokes too so would likely want more when moving up the bike chain (so to speak) ...

    yes, 200 is on the low side... 300 is good
    left the forum March 2023
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    A wheelbuilders repuation is based on how long the wheels last, build comprimises in to hit a £200 budget and there goes the reputation.

    If you want to save a few penny's the the Kinlin XC-279 on novatec A171/F172 hubs and silver double butted spokes is about as cheap as you are going to get without comprimising on parts and still using a wide rim.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • A wheelbuilders repuation is based on how long the wheels last, build comprimises in to hit a £200 budget and there goes the reputation.

    If you want to save a few penny's the the Kinlin XC-279 on novatec A171/F172 hubs and silver double butted spokes is about as cheap as you are going to get without comprimising on parts and still using a wide rim.

    I think most appreciate the distinction. My original budget was to cover factory wheels also. I'm happy to pay more for a hand built wheel, I expect to.

    I also understand that if I want a good wide rim, hand built to a decent hub I may have to save for a bit longer :)
  • secretsam
    secretsam Posts: 5,058
    IMHO any wheels (including chocolate Wagon Wheels) would be better than the awful Maddux wheels that Cannondale inflict on purchasers. I had a pair and they were utter sh17. All rides were accompanied by the "twang" of a broken spoke. I bought some cheap Racing 7s (fewer spokes than the Maddux, mind) which were (and are) excellent.

    Personally some Archetypes on Miche sounds excellent, might be tempted myself...Paolo?

    It's just a hill. Get over it.
  • SecretSam wrote:
    IMHO any wheels (including chocolate Wagon Wheels) would be better than the awful Maddux wheels that Cannondale inflict on purchasers. I had a pair and they were utter sh17. All rides were accompanied by the "twang" of a broken spoke. I bought some cheap Racing 7s (fewer spokes than the Maddux, mind) which were (and are) excellent.

    Personally some Archetypes on Miche sounds excellent, might be tempted myself...Paolo?

    When I bought the bike Evans Victoria warned me I would break spokes, so far I've been lucky and they've stayed pretty true. They just feel like the weak link, the frame is super refined. The wheels not so much.
  • When I bought the bike Evans Victoria warned me I would break spokes, so far I've been lucky and they've stayed pretty true. They just feel like the weak link, the frame is super refined. The wheels not so much.

    Isn't it great that retailers these days are happy to sell something that they themselves rate as shxt... ? Sign of the times? You get what you pay for?
    I think it's perfectly possible to sell an 800 quid bike which doesn't fall apart... but they prefer to brand a crap one as entry level, so they can come back to you and say "I told you the 2 grand one was better, you should have got that one"

    Oh dear... :roll:
    left the forum March 2023
  • When I bought the bike Evans Victoria warned me I would break spokes, so far I've been lucky and they've stayed pretty true. They just feel like the weak link, the frame is super refined. The wheels not so much.

    Isn't it great that retailers these days are happy to sell something that they themselves rate as shxt... ? Sign of the times? You get what you pay for?
    I think it's perfectly possible to sell an 800 quid bike which doesn't fall apart... but they prefer to brand a crap one as entry level, so they can come back to you and say "I told you the 2 grand one was better, you should have got that one"

    Oh dear... :roll:

    I know. I think it's quite common now that below say 1500 quid the wheels stay cheap and cheerful.
  • I know. I think it's quite common now that below say 1500 quid the wheels stay cheap and cheerful.

    mmhh.. yeah, it's got even worse recently... even the most basic 70 quid Shimano model has become an upgrade.
    Basically they put a pair of wheel shaped objects as otherwise they wouldn't be able to brand it as a bicycle, but the idea is to get rid of them ASAP... as you remove bell and reflectors, you put the wheels in the skip as well... what a wasteful society... :wink::lol:
    left the forum March 2023
  • ai_1
    ai_1 Posts: 3,060
    When I bought the bike Evans Victoria warned me I would break spokes, so far I've been lucky and they've stayed pretty true. They just feel like the weak link, the frame is super refined. The wheels not so much.

    Isn't it great that retailers these days are happy to sell something that they themselves rate as shxt... ? Sign of the times? You get what you pay for?
    I think it's perfectly possible to sell an 800 quid bike which doesn't fall apart... but they prefer to brand a crap one as entry level, so they can come back to you and say "I told you the 2 grand one was better, you should have got that one"

    Oh dear... :roll:

    I know. I think it's quite common now that below say 1500 quid the wheels stay cheap and cheerful.
    The thing is, there's "cheap and cheerful" which I'd take to mean they're cheap, not fancy but they'll do the job and keep you happy. I have no problem with cheap and cheerful products although it's a pain when they're a mismatch with the rest of the package. however there's also "cheap and substandard" which is stuff that's never worth buying because it just doesn't properly do the job it's supposedly designed for. i.e. being a wheel and not falling apart without undue wear and abuse. Cheap and substandard never belongs.
  • Ai_1 wrote:
    When I bought the bike Evans Victoria warned me I would break spokes, so far I've been lucky and they've stayed pretty true. They just feel like the weak link, the frame is super refined. The wheels not so much.

    Isn't it great that retailers these days are happy to sell something that they themselves rate as shxt... ? Sign of the times? You get what you pay for?
    I think it's perfectly possible to sell an 800 quid bike which doesn't fall apart... but they prefer to brand a crap one as entry level, so they can come back to you and say "I told you the 2 grand one was better, you should have got that one"

    Oh dear... :roll:

    I know. I think it's quite common now that below say 1500 quid the wheels stay cheap and cheerful.
    The thing is, there's "cheap and cheerful" which I'd take to mean they're cheap, not fancy but they'll do the job and keep you happy. I have no problem with cheap and cheerful products although it's a pain when they're a mismatch with the rest of the package. however there's also "cheap and substandard" which is stuff that's never worth buying because it just doesn't properly do the job it's supposedly designed for. i.e. being a wheel and not falling apart without undue wear and abuse. Cheap and substandard never belongs.

    Very true. Cheap and just about functional is probably about right for these.
  • paxington wrote:
    Talking about something and actually doing it often require completely different skill sets... I'll leave you to play to your obvious strengths....

    What's that supposed to mean? The way I read it, in light of the previous comment, is "if you can't press the buy it now button, then it doesn't exist"... to which I would reply: think again, the world was doing fine even before internet and its "massive discounts".

    I did a bit of reading about wheel building machines lately, stimulated by the discussion with Mr SS. The thing that stands out for me is that spoke tension is measured by torque: in simple words the torque required to tighten the nipple is a function of the tension. The "is a function" bit is the key, as thread friction is another important parameter. If you build wheels, you will find that the torque can be inconsistent even among the same batch of spokes + nipples.
    In even simpler words, if T (torque) = A (tension) + B (friction) the machines measure T, which is not a relevant wheel building parameter, while a person would have a device to measure A directly, being that a 3 point tension gauge or some sort of acoustic device.
    The result is that IME machine built wheels are often under tensioned as the robot underestimates friction and consistently inconsistent, because tolerance of the threads is not good enough to discard friction differences from the above relationship...

    This is my take, give or take... :wink:
    What it means is that if you were half as busy building wheels as you are talking about the subject you'd be a very busy man.... I sincerely hope I've couched that in simple enough terms for you.
  • paxington wrote:
    paxington wrote:
    Talking about something and actually doing it often require completely different skill sets... I'll leave you to play to your obvious strengths....

    What's that supposed to mean? The way I read it, in light of the previous comment, is "if you can't press the buy it now button, then it doesn't exist"... to which I would reply: think again, the world was doing fine even before internet and its "massive discounts".

    I did a bit of reading about wheel building machines lately, stimulated by the discussion with Mr SS. The thing that stands out for me is that spoke tension is measured by torque: in simple words the torque required to tighten the nipple is a function of the tension. The "is a function" bit is the key, as thread friction is another important parameter. If you build wheels, you will find that the torque can be inconsistent even among the same batch of spokes + nipples.
    In even simpler words, if T (torque) = A (tension) + B (friction) the machines measure T, which is not a relevant wheel building parameter, while a person would have a device to measure A directly, being that a 3 point tension gauge or some sort of acoustic device.
    The result is that IME machine built wheels are often under tensioned as the robot underestimates friction and consistently inconsistent, because tolerance of the threads is not good enough to discard friction differences from the above relationship...

    This is my take, give or take... :wink:
    What it means is that if you were half as busy building wheels as you are talking about the subject you'd be a very busy man.... I sincerely hope I've couched that in simple enough terms for you.

    That comes across as a bit of an arsey reply tbh...that's my take, may be wrong :)
  • paxington wrote:
    paxington wrote:
    Talking about something and actually doing it often require completely different skill sets... I'll leave you to play to your obvious strengths....

    What's that supposed to mean? The way I read it, in light of the previous comment, is "if you can't press the buy it now button, then it doesn't exist"... to which I would reply: think again, the world was doing fine even before internet and its "massive discounts".

    I did a bit of reading about wheel building machines lately, stimulated by the discussion with Mr SS. The thing that stands out for me is that spoke tension is measured by torque: in simple words the torque required to tighten the nipple is a function of the tension. The "is a function" bit is the key, as thread friction is another important parameter. If you build wheels, you will find that the torque can be inconsistent even among the same batch of spokes + nipples.
    In even simpler words, if T (torque) = A (tension) + B (friction) the machines measure T, which is not a relevant wheel building parameter, while a person would have a device to measure A directly, being that a 3 point tension gauge or some sort of acoustic device.
    The result is that IME machine built wheels are often under tensioned as the robot underestimates friction and consistently inconsistent, because tolerance of the threads is not good enough to discard friction differences from the above relationship...

    This is my take, give or take... :wink:
    What it means is that if you were half as busy building wheels as you are talking about the subject you'd be a very busy man.... I sincerely hope I've couched that in simple enough terms for you.

    That comes across as a bit of an arsey reply tbh...that's my take, may be wrong :)

    Yes, all rather unnecessary. Let's keep it on subject or not at all.
  • paxington wrote:
    paxington wrote:
    Talking about something and actually doing it often require completely different skill sets... I'll leave you to play to your obvious strengths....

    What's that supposed to mean? The way I read it, in light of the previous comment, is "if you can't press the buy it now button, then it doesn't exist"... to which I would reply: think again, the world was doing fine even before internet and its "massive discounts".

    I did a bit of reading about wheel building machines lately, stimulated by the discussion with Mr SS. The thing that stands out for me is that spoke tension is measured by torque: in simple words the torque required to tighten the nipple is a function of the tension. The "is a function" bit is the key, as thread friction is another important parameter. If you build wheels, you will find that the torque can be inconsistent even among the same batch of spokes + nipples.
    In even simpler words, if T (torque) = A (tension) + B (friction) the machines measure T, which is not a relevant wheel building parameter, while a person would have a device to measure A directly, being that a 3 point tension gauge or some sort of acoustic device.
    The result is that IME machine built wheels are often under tensioned as the robot underestimates friction and consistently inconsistent, because tolerance of the threads is not good enough to discard friction differences from the above relationship...

    This is my take, give or take... :wink:
    What it means is that if you were half as busy building wheels as you are talking about the subject you'd be a very busy man.... I sincerely hope I've couched that in simple enough terms for you.

    That comes across as a bit of an arsey reply tbh...that's my take, may be wrong :)

    Yes, all rather unnecessary. Let's keep it on subject or not at all.

    Absolutely. Have you decided what wheels you're going for then Gus??
  • graememacd wrote:
    paxington wrote:
    paxington wrote:
    Talking about something and actually doing it often require completely different skill sets... I'll leave you to play to your obvious strengths....

    What's that supposed to mean? The way I read it, in light of the previous comment, is "if you can't press the buy it now button, then it doesn't exist"... to which I would reply: think again, the world was doing fine even before internet and its "massive discounts".

    I did a bit of reading about wheel building machines lately, stimulated by the discussion with Mr SS. The thing that stands out for me is that spoke tension is measured by torque: in simple words the torque required to tighten the nipple is a function of the tension. The "is a function" bit is the key, as thread friction is another important parameter. If you build wheels, you will find that the torque can be inconsistent even among the same batch of spokes + nipples.
    In even simpler words, if T (torque) = A (tension) + B (friction) the machines measure T, which is not a relevant wheel building parameter, while a person would have a device to measure A directly, being that a 3 point tension gauge or some sort of acoustic device.
    The result is that IME machine built wheels are often under tensioned as the robot underestimates friction and consistently inconsistent, because tolerance of the threads is not good enough to discard friction differences from the above relationship...

    This is my take, give or take... :wink:
    What it means is that if you were half as busy building wheels as you are talking about the subject you'd be a very busy man.... I sincerely hope I've couched that in simple enough terms for you.

    That comes across as a bit of an arsey reply tbh...that's my take, may be wrong :)

    Yes, all rather unnecessary. Let's keep it on subject or not at all.

    Absolutely. Have you decided what wheels you're going for then Gus??

    Definitely a 23mm wide rim. Erring towards the Archetype rim, but the velocity and pacenti variants also look good.

    It's clear that there's more saving to be done, to get my budget up around the 300 mark and give me more options :)
  • paxington wrote:
    What it means is that if you were half as busy building wheels as you are talking about the subject you'd be a very busy man.... I sincerely hope I've couched that in simple enough terms for you.

    Very clear.
    The way I see it is: if we both spoke from our back side (which we might well be doing), your posts would be just gas with no substance, while mine would be more like turds... like them or not, you can't ignore them, as they are full of substance.... :wink:
    left the forum March 2023
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    Good saving. If this is a bike you ride alot why buy a comprimise.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    Good saving. If this is a bike you ride alot why buy a comprimise. You can tell how many A23 rims are sold by the fact the range the distributor does keeps on shrinking. Most people prefer the archetype rim for good reasons. The Pacenti SL23 rim is a racing rim really and a bit pricey, a good rim though. The archetype is far more robust. If you want to run tubeless tyres the PAcenti is perfect although the archetype can be run with tubeless tyres apparantly.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • mercia_man
    mercia_man Posts: 1,431
    I have some Archetype wheels from the Cycle Clinic. A great buy and good personal service and advice from Malcolm. They are stiffer than my Campag factory wheels, good looking and really do seem to handle better than narrower rims. They feel more planted on the road and I run them at lower pressures for a bit more comfort. Tyres (Schwalbe Ones in my case) are very easy to fit and remove.

    Pacentis are an excellent tubeless rim but fitting regular clinchers on them can be very tricky, according to what I've read on the Internet. They are slightly lighter but more expensive than Archetypes.
  • DKay
    DKay Posts: 1,652
    Mercia Man wrote:
    I have some Archetype wheels from the Cycle Clinic.

    Me too. I agree that the 23mm width does make a noticeable improvement in handling and my cornering confidence has definately increased with them.

    I'm running them quite happily with tubeless 23mm Schwalbe Ones.
  • DKay wrote:
    Mercia Man wrote:
    I have some Archetype wheels from the Cycle Clinic.

    Me too. I agree that the 23mm width does make a noticeable improvement in handling and my cornering confidence has definitely increased with them.

    I'm running them quite happily with tubeless 23mm Schwalbe Ones.

    Thinking about running mine tubeless, is it just a case of buying one of the tubeless kits and specific tyre or is there more to it??
  • paxington wrote:
    What it means is that if you were half as busy building wheels as you are talking about the subject you'd be a very busy man.... I sincerely hope I've couched that in simple enough terms for you.

    Very clear.
    The way I see it is: if we both spoke from our back side (which we might well be doing), your posts would be just gas with no substance, while mine would be more like turds... like them or not, you can't ignore them, as they are full of substance.... :wink:

    Superb Ugo - May I nominate this reply for post of the month (or possibly even of the year) ?
  • secretsam
    secretsam Posts: 5,058
    paxington wrote:
    What it means is that if you were half as busy building wheels as you are talking about the subject you'd be a very busy man.... I sincerely hope I've couched that in simple enough terms for you.

    Very clear.
    The way I see it is: if we both spoke from our back side (which we might well be doing), your posts would be just gas with no substance, while mine would be more like turds... like them or not, you can't ignore them, as they are full of substance.... :wink:

    In other words you talk sh17?!?!?!??!?!?!?

    On another matter, Maddux wheels - they're crap. Cannondale, shame on you.

    It's just a hill. Get over it.
  • SecretSam wrote:
    On another matter, Maddux wheels - they're crap.

    If you were making something good, would you call your company Maddux?

    Dux is latin for "Leader, General, head of state or army"... Benito Mussolini wanted to be referred to as "Dux" during his 20 years dictatorship in Italy... Mussolini of course inspired Hitler, who during his ascent to power saw him as a role model... On these grounds, is Mad-dux a good name for a company? I think not... :roll:

    Mind you, I like a bad name and when they asked to vote for a name for the 8 piece band on th X-Factor, I voted for 2-acts, because it does sound good if you say it fast and well represents a double bunch of kids wanting to make it big in music... :wink:
    left the forum March 2023
  • DKay
    DKay Posts: 1,652
    graememacd wrote:
    DKay wrote:
    Mercia Man wrote:
    I have some Archetype wheels from the Cycle Clinic.

    Me too. I agree that the 23mm width does make a noticeable improvement in handling and my cornering confidence has definitely increased with them.

    I'm running them quite happily with tubeless 23mm Schwalbe Ones.

    Thinking about running mine tubeless, is it just a case of buying one of the tubeless kits and specific tyre or is there more to it??

    Two runs of 21mm Stans Yellow Tape each wheel, a pair of Stans tubeless valves and sealant if you want the puncture protection. That's all you need to run tubeless on the Archetypes.
  • paxington wrote:
    What it means is that if you were half as busy building wheels as you are talking about the subject you'd be a very busy man.... I sincerely hope I've couched that in simple enough terms for you.

    Very clear.
    The way I see it is: if we both spoke from our back side (which we might well be doing), your posts would be just gas with no substance, while mine would be more like turds... like them or not, you can't ignore them, as they are full of substance.... :wink:

    I am glad that you understand. I wasn't for a moment suggesting that you talk sh+t but I'll have to take you at your own estimation on that point.
    My point was that you talk a lot but don't appear to actually DO very much, whilst appering extremely keen to devalue the efforts of more productive and accomplished members of society .My guess would have to be that jealously might be one of several motivating factors for that.
    If I ever want someone adept at puerile responses I'll beat a path to your door. However, if I was ever in the market for a well built set of wheels something tells me you're probably not the person to contact. The way you shied away from a previous posters enquiry for a price speaks volumes on that score.
    You make my point about you being a talker and not a DOer better than I ever could do without your help by your prolific post rate and relentlessly childish and petty responses; all the time shying away from addressing or even acknowledging (perhaps it's too painful) the point that is actually being put across. I'm certain that if you were busier with things more productive, you wouldn't be able to find time to post dross mid-morning on a weekday.
    There are lots of armchair experts in the world who find it preferable to seek their facile gratifications by criticising those who actually DO things. Presumably this as they lack the drive and ability to get out there and actually DO their own thing.
    It's interesting that you chose the word "turds" to describe your words, Your choice of word entirely. I'm really going to have make this my last word on this lest I become hypocritical by doing the very that I find so distasteful about people like yourself .
    As an aside have you ever considered a career as a writer ? I feel almost certain that that is where your true skills might be best realised. The Beano or the The Sun perhaps....
    I have to say in contrast to yourself I take my hat off to guys like the guys at Superstar who have the drive, ambition and ability to get out in the world and actually contribute to the party.
  • paxington wrote:
    really going to have make this my last word on this

    Oh please don't I've really been enjoying this thread and your contribution is vital.
  • paxington wrote:
    paxington wrote:
    What it means is that if you were half as busy building wheels as you are talking about the subject you'd be a very busy man.... I sincerely hope I've couched that in simple enough terms for you.

    Very clear.
    The way I see it is: if we both spoke from our back side (which we might well be doing), your posts would be just gas with no substance, while mine would be more like turds... like them or not, you can't ignore them, as they are full of substance.... :wink:

    I am glad that you understand. I wasn't for a moment suggesting that you talk sh+t but I'll have to take you at your own estimation on that point.
    My point was that you talk a lot but don't appear to actually DO very much, whilst appering extremely keen to devalue the efforts of more productive and accomplished members of society .My guess would have to be that jealously might be one of several motivating factors for that.
    If I ever want someone adept at puerile responses I'll beat a path to your door. However, if I was ever in the market for a well built set of wheels something tells me you're probably not the person to contact. The way you shied away from a previous posters enquiry for a price speaks volumes on that score.
    You make my point about you being a talker and not a DOer better than I ever could do without your help by your prolific post rate and relentlessly childish and petty responses; all the time shying away from addressing or even acknowledging (perhaps it's too painful) the point that is actually being put across. I'm certain that if you were busier with things more productive, you wouldn't be able to find time to post dross mid-morning on a weekday.
    There are lots of armchair experts in the world who find it preferable to seek their facile gratifications by criticising those who actually DO things. Presumably this as they lack the drive and ability to get out there and actually DO their own thing.
    It's interesting that you chose the word "turds" to describe your words, Your choice of word entirely. I'm really going to have make this my last word on this lest I become hypocritical by doing the very that I find so distasteful about people like yourself .
    As an aside have you ever considered a career as a writer ? I feel almost certain that that is where your true skills might be best realised. The Beano or the The Sun perhaps....
    I have to say in contrast to yourself I take my hat off to guys like the guys at Superstar who have the drive, ambition and ability to get out in the world and actually contribute to the party.

    I'm sure you can't believe ugo is not a 'doer', do you not read this forum regularly?

    Or are you a Superstar employee?