Factory wheels v H Plus Son Archetype hand built

freestyle_gus

With a budget between £200-£250 I'm looking to upgrade from my functional but not particularly involving Maddux R3.0's (I ride a Cannondale Synapse 8 ).

I find myself in that common situation of tenaciously reading every review, every blog and now I can't see the wood for the trees! I can't make a decision!

I'm looking for a wheel set that is more involving, lightish (the maddux are about 2kg a pair) and comfortable... "you can't have it all" I hear you shout!

Anyway, here's roughly where I'm at. It would be great to have thoughts on the options... It will help me make a decision

Here are my findings- feel free to poo poo them!

Fulcrum Quattro V H Plus Son on Tiagra from Spa Cycles. http://www.spacycles.co.uk/products.php ... 0s178p3190

Fulcrum - Lightish, stiff, harsh, some good tech, good looking, a speedy involving ride.

H Plus - Heavy-ish, fairly comfortable, improved handling use to wide rim, very good looking, not the fastest, great value.


Campag Zonda V H Plus Son on 105 from Spa Cycles.

Campag - Pretty light, very stiff, quite harsh, interesting spoke pattern(!), a speedy ride.

H Plus - As above, if very slightly lighter. http://www.spacycles.co.uk/products.php ... 0s178p3188

Morally, I'm drawn towards the H Plus Son's, hand built wheels just sounds right. But will I have more fun on the Fulcrum/Campags? Which seem to be highly respected factory wheels?

Can of worms!

ugo.santalucia

Obviously I am biased... having built a few Archetype the overwhelming feedback is that they handle better than a narrow rim. In my opinion handling trumps any other feature, like aerodynamics or low weight. If you can enjoy a twisty descend, that is fun that going 0.2 mph faster is not going to give you. There is an element of safety as well. A bike that handles better is less likely to end up in a ditch.

For 300 or just over you can normally get the Archetype built at 1600 grams or just over, which is a competitive weight with similarly priced factory wheels, there isn't just SPA. Virtually any builder in the country (with a couple of exceptions) will build the Archetype as over the past couple of years it has become the benchmark for quality and performance at a reasonable price.

darkhairedlord

If you are going handbuilt don't use the tiagra hubs as they won't be 11sp compatible, 5800 hubs aren't that much more. OK so you might not have 11sp at the moment, but you don't want to re-hub if you decide to go that way in the future.
Other than that you shouldn't expect any wheelset to make any appreciable difference to your ride.
Except if you are of the portly persuasion or your existing wheels a bit flexy, as in rubbing on the brake blocks when going up hill.
Aero may help you go a bit faster on the way down-hill but not by much. Choice is mostly about durability, serviceability and good old bling factor.

graememacd

I recently built some wheels with Novatec hubs and Archetype rims, they feel very light/stiff and look great. I would certainly recommend them to anyone.
you could always have a go at building your own Archetype wheels?? mine came to about £230 ish

freestyle_gus

Interesting stuff, thanks!

These responses have me leaning towards the H Plus Son.

I'm not sure I'd want to build my own (buying the kit to do it is prohibitive i'd imagine).

As I'm fairly light (a shade under 70kg) I guess I can entertain the idea of the lower spoke counts too?

Thanks all

ugo.santalucia

freestyle_gus wrote:

As I'm fairly light (a shade under 70kg) I guess I can entertain the idea of the lower spoke counts too?

Thanks all

24/28 for something durable or 20/24 to save a few extra grams

matt-h

Highly recommend the Archetypes. Ugo built me a pair on Miche hubs, DT Spokes.
I took them to the Alps in the summer and was not left wanting for a lighter set.
In fact, i think they were faster as i was able to corner and brake more effectively.

Try to put some nice summer rubber on though. I use Vittoria Corsa CX - beautiful!

Matt

kingofthetailwind

Unless I'm missing something, Spa don't seem to be using the Archetype rim? All it says on each build is that they are H Plus Son rims, no mention of Archetype. And if they are Archetype rims they seem ultra cheap - £279 for a set with Ultegra hubs?

freestyle_gus

That's a good shout KingoftheTailwind.

I'l have to ask them. I guess it's more likely to be the TB14?

kingofthetailwind

The TB14 is around the same price I think?

ugo.santalucia

KingOfTheTailwind wrote:

Unless I'm missing something, Spa don't seem to be using the Archetype rim? All it says on each build is that they are H Plus Son rims, no mention of Archetype. And if they are Archetype rims they seem ultra cheap - £279 for a set with Ultegra hubs?

At SPA they use Alpina DB spokes, which are very cheap compared to DT or Sapim. In terms of quality they are nearly there though.
That should account for the price.

Rims 110
Hubs 110
Build 40
Spokes 19

there you go...

kingofthetailwind

OK, that makes sense then. I thought for a minute I had been ripped off by my local builder for my set with Zenith hubs/Sapim spokes! (£300)

ugo.santalucia

KingOfTheTailwind wrote:

OK, that makes sense then. I thought for a minute I had been ripped off by my local builder for my set with Zenith hubs/Sapim spokes! (£300)

Well, it's not Wiggle that you can do price match... it would be sad if price was the only thing that matters... some charge 40, some charge 60 to build a set of wheels. Sapim Race spokes are generally twice as much as Alpina and the laser are even more.

freestyle_gus

ugo.santalucia wrote:

KingOfTheTailwind wrote:

OK, that makes sense then. I thought for a minute I had been ripped off by my local builder for my set with Zenith hubs/Sapim spokes! (£300)

Well, it's not Wiggle that you can do price match... it would be sad if price was the only thing that matters... some charge 40, some charge 60 to build a set of wheels. Sapim Race spokes are generally twice as much as Alpina and the laser are even more.

Price certainly isn't the only thing that matters, but everyone has a budget.

Generally reading here, people rave about two things - the Archetype rim and Ugo's wheels!

Care to quote me Ugo?

ugo.santalucia

freestyle_gus wrote:

Generally reading here, people rave about two things - the Archetype rim and Ugo's wheels!

Care to quote me Ugo?

... and rightly so...

I am only building locally, I'm the man with the Jig in SW London... I'm no Wiggle, I'm a blogger... although last summer I was asked to build wheels for Wiggle...

freestyle_gus

ugo.santalucia wrote:

freestyle_gus wrote:

Generally reading here, people rave about two things - the Archetype rim and Ugo's wheels!

Care to quote me Ugo?

... and rightly so...

I am only building locally, I'm the man with the Jig in SW London... I'm no Wiggle, I'm a blogger... although last summer I was asked to build wheels for Wiggle...

Does South East London (well North Kent really) count as local?

ugo.santalucia

freestyle_gus wrote:

Does South East London (well North Kent really) count as local?

It's not to me to decide where is local, I'm not the one doing the driving... The guy with the Jig in SE London is Arup Sen... you see, London is divided into zones... step over someone else's zone and you get stabbed... alright... admittedly that's fiction...

paxington

These have to be worth a look : http://www.superstarcomponents.com/en/p ... e-deal.htm
there ia a whole other thread on them on here along with a £30 discount code.( I think it's cwsl23 but check T'other thread to be sure )
Very impressive switched on company to my mind.

ugo.santalucia

paxington wrote:

These have to be worth a look : http://www.superstarcomponents.com/en/p ... e-deal.htm
there ia a whole other thread on them on here along with a £30 discount code.( I think it's cwsl23 but check T'other thread to be sure )
Very impressive switched on company to my mind.

As long as the OP is aware they are not hand built and despite the owner's claims of greatness they don't have the same build quality and tolerances of a well hand built set... then of course they should be considered

paxington

ugo.santalucia wrote:

paxington wrote:

These have to be worth a look : http://www.superstarcomponents.com/en/p ... e-deal.htm
there ia a whole other thread on them on here along with a £30 discount code.( I think it's cwsl23 but check T'other thread to be sure )
Very impressive switched on company to my mind.

As long as the OP is aware they are not hand built and despite the owner's claims of greatness they don't have the same build quality and tolerances of a well hand built set... then of course they should be considered

I think representing opinion as quantifiable fact is fine if one is prepared to demonstrate the validity of what's being said. " a well hand built set " is, after all, a pretty vague and generic term. Built by who ? At what price? In what time frame would these hypothetical wheels be built and delivered.
Comparing a set of wheels that are on offer in the real world to some notional Ideal seems to be to be at best preposterous, at worst downright churlish in it's obvious, and frankly unfair, bias.
We are talking about a set of wheels that net @£169 delivered next day here.

ugo.santalucia

paxington wrote:

Comparing a set of wheels that are on offer in the real world to some notional Ideal seems to be to be at best preposterous, at worst downright churlish in it's obvious, and frankly unfair, bias..

If you scroll, the very first thing I said is that I am biased...

freestyle_gus

ugo.santalucia wrote:

paxington wrote:

Comparing a set of wheels that are on offer in the real world to some notional Ideal seems to be to be at best preposterous, at worst downright churlish in it's obvious, and frankly unfair, bias..

If you scroll, the very first thing I said is that I am biased...

And I've no problem with that Paolo

It is obviously good deal for what it is. But it's rather a moot point as I'm not sure I want to go tubeless and the idea of a wheel set that is a total bar steward to change tubes/tyres on doesn't really appeal.

I enjoyed the exchanges on the other thread, I liked the passion, the sarcasm and the insight.

aberdeenal

I have a set of H Plus Sons c/w Novatec hubs and Sapim black spokes on my Croix de Fer and absolutely love them and highly recommend them. I have 28mm tyres at 70psi on them - very comfortable for commuting.

I bought them from Strada Hand Built Wheels for £365 inc. VAT if you're looking for a price comparison.

paxington

Talking about something and actually doing it often require completely different skill sets... I'll leave you to play to your obvious strengths....

freestyle_gus

AberdeenAl wrote:

I have a set of H Plus Sons c/w Novatec hubs and Sapim black spokes on my Croix de Fer and absolutely love them and highly recommend them. I have 28mm tyres at 70psi on them - very comfortable for commuting.

I bought them from Strada Hand Built Wheels for £365 inc. VAT if you're looking for a price comparison.

Thanks. Very nice they sound too, but at about £100 over my budget I shall have to just dream

ugo.santalucia

paxington wrote:

Talking about something and actually doing it often require completely different skill sets... I'll leave you to play to your obvious strengths....

What's that supposed to mean? The way I read it, in light of the previous comment, is "if you can't press the buy it now button, then it doesn't exist"... to which I would reply: think again, the world was doing fine even before internet and its "massive discounts".

I did a bit of reading about wheel building machines lately, stimulated by the discussion with Mr SS. The thing that stands out for me is that spoke tension is measured by torque: in simple words the torque required to tighten the nipple is a function of the tension. The "is a function" bit is the key, as thread friction is another important parameter. If you build wheels, you will find that the torque can be inconsistent even among the same batch of spokes + nipples.
In even simpler words, if T (torque) = A (tension) + B (friction) the machines measure T, which is not a relevant wheel building parameter, while a person would have a device to measure A directly, being that a 3 point tension gauge or some sort of acoustic device.
The result is that IME machine built wheels are often under tensioned as the robot underestimates friction and consistently inconsistent, because tolerance of the threads is not good enough to discard friction differences from the above relationship...

This is my take, give or take...

freestyle_gus

ugo.santalucia wrote:

paxington wrote:

Talking about something and actually doing it often require completely different skill sets... I'll leave you to play to your obvious strengths....

What's that supposed to mean? The way I read it, in light of the previous comment, is "if you can't press the buy it now button, then it doesn't exist"... to which I would reply: think again, the world was doing fine even before internet and its "massive discounts".

I did a bit of reading about wheel building machines lately, stimulated by the discussion with Mr SS. The thing that stands out for me is that spoke tension is measured by torque: in simple words the torque required to tighten the nipple is a function of the tension. The "is a function" bit is the key, as thread friction is another important parameter. If you build wheels, you will find that the torque can be inconsistent even among the same batch of spokes + nipples.
In even simpler words, if T (torque) = A (tension) + B (friction) the machines measure T, which is not a relevant wheel building parameter, while a person would have a device to measure A directly, being that a 3 point tension gauge or some sort of acoustic device.
The result is that IME machine built wheels are often under tensioned as the robot underestimates friction and consistently inconsistent, because tolerance of the threads is not good enough to discard friction differences from the above relationship...

This is my take, give or take...

Oh, gawd. Not on this thread as well!

I think Paxington should take this particular spikyness back to the other thread.

I can then get back to umming and ahing about what wheels to buy

letap73

This chap builds archetypes + miche hubs + sapim spokes - sub £300:

http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk/

cattytown

paxington wrote:

I think representing opinion as quantifiable fact is fine if one is prepared to demonstrate the validity of what's being said. " a well hand built set " is, after all, a pretty vague and generic term. Built by who ? At what price? In what time frame would these hypothetical wheels be built and delivered.
Comparing a set of wheels that are on offer in the real world to some notional Ideal seems to be to be at best preposterous, at worst downright churlish in it's obvious, and frankly unfair, bias.
We are talking about a set of wheels that net @£169 delivered next day here.

I am not sure what your point is. Handbuilt wheels are far from hypothetical. Contact any of the well known builders - too many to list all - and you can get a clear description of what you can order and when you can have it.

Well known wheel builders include our own Ugo and Malcolm at the Cycle Clinic, Just Riding Along, Paul Hewitt, Harry Rowland, Spa, Strada, Wheelsmith and many others.

FWIW I like my archetypes on Ultegra (<>£300). They took a little over a week from order to delivery.

Paul.

graememacd

These guys do Archetypes with Novatec hubs for £270
http://dcrwheels.co.uk/custom-wheelsets ... ggestions/

Alternatively there's Kinlin rims which are a little cheaper and I believe are decent quality.

type:epyt

Crikey, folks make this complicated ... OP has a lower end (but still very good frame) bike and wants a cheap(ish) wheel upgrade to sort out the (obviously) weakest link on his bike. Solution, buy a set of factory built wheels which he likes the look of, have decent reviews and can be bought at a discount which gives him bang for his £200.

Unless weight is an issue (human or carried load) there's no need to go 'bespoke' at that level of bike/price.