5 grand to spend on a bike.

ck101

If I had 5K to drop it would be on a C60 or whatever the latest Look is. Thats me a sucker for heritage and brand.

I do have an Izalco Pro and find it hard to believe Focus can improve on it which I hear they have with the MAX which AG2R rode in the Tour last year to win top team.

btiratsoo

I already have a custom 953 frame lined up. The C60 is an appealing choice, but by the time you through in some decent wheels, Ultegra Di2 and nice 3T carbon finishing kit its well over 5k!

I love my Krypton and I think my mind is already made up with the Argon 18 Gallium Pro with Di2. I am also fighting the urge to just use it as a deposit and finance the new Tarmac S-works disc or a Supersix Evo Black.

Thanks for all the replies so far. Keep them coming as it really is interesting seeing what others would do.

*EDIT*

To throw in a complete curve ball, I have just laid eyes on this. Based on looks alone and the fact it comes with Dura Ace and some incredible wheels for half my original budget has just thrown me!

http://www.canyon.com/en/roadbikes/bike.html?b=3579

kingstonian

btiratsoo wrote:

I already have a custom 953 frame lined up. The C60 is an appealing choice, but by the time you through in some decent wheels, Ultegra Di2 and nice 3T carbon finishing kit its well over 5k!

I love my Krypton and I think my mind is already made up with the Argon 18 Gallium Pro with Di2. I am also fighting the urge to just use it as a deposit and finance the new Tarmac S-works disc or a Supersix Evo Black.

Thanks for all the replies so far. Keep them coming as it really is interesting seeing what others would do.

*EDIT*

To throw in a complete curve ball, I have just laid eyes on this. Based on looks alone and the fact it comes with Dura Ace and some incredible wheels for half my original budget has just thrown me!

http://www.canyon.com/en/roadbikes/bike.html?b=3579

How about you buy two Canyons, I'll have the second one thanks !!!

Mccaria

Apart from the price, why the sudden interest in an aluminium framed bike ? You are already getting a 953 frame, so you have the metal framed bike well covered without then going for a cheaper aluminium frame. With a bit of judicious purchasing and planning you should be able to build a C60 with Ultegra Di2 within a £5k budget.

I have both 953 and Columbus Xcr framed bikes as well as some carbon fibre bikes. The stainless steel bikes are great fun and aesthetically work well, but they are still not as light or match the performance of the kind of carbon fibre bikes you can build for £5k.

btiratsoo

Thanks for the reply Mccaria. It was based on looks and price/ vfm alone. Simple as that.

Mccaria

Fair enough. If it was me the sweet spot would be the Aeroad SLX Cf 9.0 with full Dura Ace for just under £4k and still be £1k under budget or if electic transmission is essential the 8.0 with Ultegra Di2 for £3.5k.

btiratsoo

Yes I have seen that too! So many cool bikes. Decisions decisions.

Anonymous

Rode yesterday with a friend who has the new Aeroad SLX Ultegra Di2 with reynolds wheels.

Looks very badass. See commuting chat for the pics

DKay

Mccaria wrote:

if electic transmission is essential the 8.0 with Ultegra Di2 for £3.5k.

This is what I suggested all the way back on page 1 too. It's an amazing bike for the cash.

ovi

I'm liking the Wyndy Milla Foo fighter and spec it how you want

mercia_man

Another possibility could be a special Genesis Zero offered by Malcolm at The Cycle Clinic. Have a look at his facebook page. He offers this with handbuilt Dura Ace/Pacenti wheels and good quality finishing kit. He says it's a higher spec than the stock build from Genesis, lighter at 6.8kg for a large and £400 cheaper at £4,070.

DeVlaeminck

For that budget I'd want something from a company that makes its own frames - top end Colnagos and Looks are made in their own factories - some of these other brands do you know that you couldn't get the same frame from Ribble for a grand less ? Of course that's not to say that a top end Colnago or Look will be any better - but unless you lust after a particular bike why would you spend 5k on it. You can get that Genesis with Tiagra for £1300 so say it's a 1k frame - a grand for Dura Ace - with a budget of 5k surely you can get something a bit more desirable.

btiratsoo

DeVlaeminck, you hit the nail on the head with desirable. I'm just trying to find something that is! It seems that anything other than high end frames are all made by someone else, in which case its just about graphics/ colour, components and value for money.

To throw another curve ball into the mix. Spending 5 grand on a bike now, should I be thinking disc brakes? 5 large is a significant investment in a bike. A significant investment that I would hope will stand the test of time. This being the case, would it be more sensible to wait a while longer and join the disc revolution thereby future proofing the frame?

mercia_man

As has been covered many times on this forum, virtually all carbon bikes are now made in monocoque form in Taiwan or China, with the Giant and Merida factories being a couple of the main manufacturers. Scott, Specialized, Focus, Cannondale, Orbea, Pinarello - the list is endless. Despite Made in Italy, Made in Spain or Made in Germany stickers, frames come out of the same factories and are then painted and assembled in the country on the label. That doesn't mean they are bad products. But maybe less desirable.

If you want a 5k bike that a company makes in its own factory, it's difficult to think of any off the shelf options. You'd be getting a custom build on a stock frame. For example, the Look 695 Light (made in Look's Tunisian factory) I suggested earlier. You might have a long wait for the bike you want. And then your chosen dealer will build it up for you. That was certainly my experience last year when I was after a Look 695. The quoted delivery time was so long I upped my budget and ordered a full custom Legend HT 10.5 (made in Italy) with a shorter delivery time.

Another appealing genuinely Made in Italy option is the lugged Colnago C60. Other Colnagos are now made in Asia. I see Epic Cycles are offering builds on the C60 at around, or a bit more than, your budget.

Small Italian factories like Legend and Sarto also build custom bikes from wrapped carbon tubes for other people. In Britain, for example, Comtat and Wyndy Milla offer some nice Italian made bikes that might just about get in your budget. British firm Nerve is starting to get established with British-made carbon.

So there's some lovely desirable stuff around if you are prepared to wait for delivery - and within or near your budget if you don't specify expensive carbon wheels. But unfortunately not really off the shelf.

As for disc brakes, I think they are a good idea for all-weather town and touring bikes but I don't think they have yet been perfected for lightweight road bikes. The big benefit is much better wet weather braking. But they do require heavier stronger wheels and heavier stiffer frames and forks, resulting in extra weight and a harder ride. My experience with disc brakes on motorbikes (and this seems to be echoed in the MTB section of this forum) is that disc brake pistons and pivots tend to stiffen up with use due to muck and grit getting in, with the result that the pads rub annoyingly on the disc until you have cleaned and polished everything up again. The joy of a high end carbon road bike is the light weight and its smooth easy rolling which transmits all your efforts into forward motion. Binding brake pads and extra weight don't help this.

Other issues reported with road bike discs in mountains are brake fade, boiling brake fluid and disc rotors breaking up due to overheating. And there have been reports of front wheels popping out of fork dropouts because of the twisting force of one-sided braking. Through-axles would prevent this. I think it will be a year or so before disc brakes on road bikes are properly sorted and their advantages outweigh the disadvantages.

Sorry this post is so long but I find it an interesting topic!

btiratsoo

Mercia Man that post basically sums up my position. I also find this topic interesting as A it is going to be my bike and B in the reality of it all, will a bike in the 5 grand bracket be "better" (I use that word lightly) than a 3 grand bike with cheaper finishing kit.

From all the posts on here and from my own research, it seems that once you get above 3k, with traditional non direct sales practices, you are effectively paying for the finishing kit. It is a mine field of cool and interesting bikes at this price point, 5k, but the more I look the more confused I get. I'm also a bit wary about the mega expensive "full custom" and "bespoke" bikes etc as it seems fashionable and on-trend.

I fit standard geometry well with an adjustment of stems and bars. This, to me, defeats the whole idea of going to a bespoke builder. Paying large sums of money to supposedly get a bike that will ride just the way you want it to, to me, sounds a bit like marketing crap yet I also understand the engineering behind it.

Here comes the hypocrisy. I said earlier that a friend will be building me a nice steel bike frame. This will be a 953 frame. I am having this made by him as I value his craftsmanship and I want to see what all the fuss about bespoke steel frames is. What better way to go about that than support a friend.

Your points about discs in the wet and mud are valid, but the brake fade etc I personally have never experienced. This comes from downhill racing and living and riding in the Whistler bike park for 1.5 years. Perhaps a few years ago this might have been the case, but unless said disc brakes are made by Harley Davidson, modern hydraulic braking systems are superb.

What it boils down to so far is this:

Off the shelf frames
S-Works Tarmac
Colnago C59 or C60
Look
Trek Madone or Domane
Cervelo
Supersix
GAllium Pro

Bespoke
Any number of manufacturers ranging from the likes of Aprire to Legend and Parlee

But to stay within budget on a full custom build then the finishing kit suffers.

So many decisions.

letap73

Bespoke does not have to be ridicuously expensive. Two interesting options are:
1. Bespokederby -sell custom built Venetella frames which retail from £1800,which are made in Italy.
2. Craddock cycles, the first custom build carbon frame builder building carbon frames at a reduced price due to being a very small business.

mercia_man

I've got three custom frames - carbon from Italy, steel from Britain and steel from USA - and two off the shelf - carbon and steel from Asia. To be frank, the advantage of custom is mostly psychological. I like having a unique frame made for me by a skilled person to my specifications. I don't need a specially designed frame, although I do have long legs in comparison with my height, and I can make the adjustments I want by changing handlebars, stem and seatpost. One advantage of custom is that your frame will not need lots of ugly spacers on the steerer to get the bars the right height. Good on you for supporting your friend. I'm sure you'll relish having a unique bike.

Custom carbon bikes may not be as expensive as you might think. Have a look at Legend prices on the Bike Science website, for example. Something like the upper mid range HT 7.5 could I think be built in your budget with good groupset and finishing kit. Road.cc 's David Arthur gave it an excellent write-up.

On disc brake fade, I was surprised to hear about the problem on road bikes after riding motorcycles in big mountains for years without issues. But apparently the absence of engine braking, the relatively small size of road bike disc rotors and the high speed reached on road descents in mountains mean the braking system heats up considerably more than on a motorbike or mountain bike. I remember reading a recent shocking article on Bike Rumour website about one of their contributors having a nasty accident due to road bike disc overheating.

I like the idea of all the off the shelf bikes you list. To my mind, a major plus point for the Colnago C60 is its special bottom bracket shell which, in theory, does away with the disadvantages of bearings pressed into the frame.

ugo.santalucia

Mercia Man wrote:

And there have been reports of front wheels popping out of fork dropouts because of the twisting force of one-sided braking. Through-axles would prevent this.

Can you quote the source for this? I am not sure how that's possible, given front forks have vertical dropouts and lawyers lips... :roll:

mercia_man

Chris Juden, the CTC's technical officer, wrote a full article about this a couple of years ago in the CTC mag. There had apparently been several cases reported to the club. An added problem was people using external cam QR skewers not securing the wheel firmly enough.

mercia_man

Just found some of Juden's original comments. It was more like 10 years ago, not a couple! It followed a series of accidents involving front wheels coming out or shifting position on mountain bikes. There was a lot of debate about whether calipers were better in front or behind the forks and the clamping force of quick releases. I assume through-axles are a solution to this issue.

Juden said: "The action of a front disc brake, due to the position of the caliper, is to eject the front axle from the front dropout. The only thing that prevents this, of course, is the clamping of the front axle and the lawyers' lips. The force generated by this type of brake due to the small diameter of the disc is hugely greater than anything the customary axle fasteners were originally designed to resist."

Similar concerns were expressed at the time, I see, by Brant Richards, of On One, and wheel expert Jobst Brandt.

Edit: Just found an article making the same points on Sheldon Brown website.

morph

Mercia Man wrote:

I remember reading a recent shocking article on Bike Rumour website about one of their contributors having a nasty accident due to road bike disc overheating.

Would that be this one from 2012? http://www.bikerumor.com/2012/02/14/roa ... they-work/
As the author admits he was using CX brakes, with ultra lightweight aftermarket rotors that really weren't suitable.

Since then Tyler was very impressed by the Shimano hydraulics: http://www.bikerumor.com/2014/06/09/sec ... hemselves/

holiver

How about a TdF proven aero machine like a Fuji Transonic or Canyon Aeroroad?

meanredspider

Mercia Man wrote:

On disc brake fade, I was surprised to hear about the problem on road bikes after riding motorcycles in big mountains for years without issues. But apparently the absence of engine braking, the relatively small size of road bike disc rotors and the high speed reached on road descents in mountains mean the braking system heats up considerably more than on a motorbike or mountain bike. I remember reading a recent shocking article on Bike Rumour website about one of their contributors having a nasty accident due to road bike disc overheating.

I've read your speculation with interest. I've had my Volagi (one of the earliest purpose-built disc-braked road bikes) for nearly 4 years now and I don't recognise any of your concerns over disc brakes on road bikes. As I suggest, they are all speculation that I've read often over the last 4 years - none of which has been matched by my experience in a very wide range of situations.

For example, using your example above, there are absolutely no fading issues with disc brakes. I did 6 descents (5 in one day) of Alpe D'Huez this summer at temperatures between 0 and 33C) in difficult conditions (loads of traffic and other cyclists) meaning I braked far more than I would want to. The disc was blue. Absolutely no fade. On the same day, plenty of people popped tyres on rim braked bikes. I weigh 85kg - plenty of downhill acceleration and energy dissipation.

As for comfort - the bike is designed for double centuries. Heavy wheels? Nope. Issues with QR and rub or wheels being "forced out" - too funny!

For comparison, my other similar-priced bike is a Scott Foil HMX. I've ridden both flat out over the same Strava segments numerous times and I can measure no difference. The Foil, which is now in NL, is great for there because there are no hills and long straight open routes - no need for brakes. But as soon as there are hills or rain and I'd take the Volagi every time.

ETA - given that I would take the disc-braked bike rather than the lighter UCI-sanctioned road bike for 6 ascents of the Alpe in one day tells you all you need to know about what I think about the safety and efficacy of disc brakes!

mercia_man

morph wrote:

Mercia Man wrote:

I remember reading a recent shocking article on Bike Rumour website about one of their contributors having a nasty accident due to road bike disc overheating.

Would that be this one from 2012? http://www.bikerumor.com/2012/02/14/roa ... they-work/
As the author admits he was using CX brakes, with ultra lightweight aftermarket rotors that really weren't suitable.

Since then Tyler was very impressed by the Shimano hydraulics: http://www.bikerumor.com/2014/06/09/sec ... hemselves/

Yes, that was the Bike Rumor article I saw about the accident. It certainly seems like Shimano hydraulics are the best at the moment. I'd really like to try some. I'm sure road bike discs are the future. But we need all the potential safety issues resolved and manufacturers to agree on the best system.

meanredspider

Mercia Man wrote:

But we need all the potential safety issues resolved and manufacturers to agree on the best system.

What "potential safety issues"? What "best system"?

mercia_man

meanredspider wrote:

Mercia Man wrote:

On disc brake fade, I was surprised to hear about the problem on road bikes after riding motorcycles in big mountains for years without issues. But apparently the absence of engine braking, the relatively small size of road bike disc rotors and the high speed reached on road descents in mountains mean the braking system heats up considerably more than on a motorbike or mountain bike. I remember reading a recent shocking article on Bike Rumour website about one of their contributors having a nasty accident due to road bike disc overheating.

I've read your speculation with interest. I've had my Volagi (one of the earliest purpose-built disc-braked road bikes) for nearly 4 years now and I don't recognise any of your concerns over disc brakes on road bikes. As I suggest, they are all speculation that I've read often over the last 4 years - none of which has been matched by my experience in a very wide range of situations.

For example, using your example above, there are absolutely no fading issues with disc brakes. I did 6 descents (5 in one day) of Alpe D'Huez this summer at temperatures between 0 and 33C) in difficult conditions (loads of traffic and other cyclists) meaning I braked far more than I would want to. The disc was blue. Absolutely no fade. On the same day, plenty of people popped tyres on rim braked bikes. I weigh 85kg - plenty of downhill acceleration and energy dissipation.

As for comfort - the bike is designed for double centuries. Heavy wheels? Nope. Issues with QR and rub or wheels being "forced out" - too funny!

For comparison, my other similar-priced bike is a Scott Foil HMX. I've ridden both flat out over the same Strava segments numerous times and I can measure no difference. The Foil, which is now in NL, is great for there because there are no hills and long straight open routes - no need for brakes. But as soon as there are hills or rain and I'd take the Volagi every time.

You're quite right. It's just speculation on my part. I've never ridden a disc road bike, just motorcycles, mountain bikes and one electric bike. I like discs and it's good to hear of people's favourable experiences with them. But I still feel there's some way to go before they become the favoured option on a lightweight carbon road bike. I would definitely get a disc braked steel bike for an all-rounder machine if I didn't already have five bikes!

However, experts much more qualified than me still express concerns about potential issues with discs. I was just reading yesterday a pdf about tandems on Thorn's website by their ace designer Andy Blance who has years of experience. He describes how he has repeatedly tested all types of brakes on his tandems down a stretch of hill. V-brakes did the best. The discs all faded through overheating within a short distance although the latest discs do better. He will build tandems with a disc rear drag brake but does not recommend discs for primary braking for safety reasons. He says standard steel forks have failed in his tests on tandems with discs. He says he can build strong enough forks for discs but they provide a very rough ride.

Obviously, a tandem is much heavier and produces far more heat than a solo bike, but this pdf is food for thought.

meanredspider

Mercia Man wrote:

Obviously, a tandem is much heavier and produces far more heat than a solo bike, but this pdf is food for thought.

You're right - the tandem is much heavier - I've heard that tandems will melt BB7 adjusters. There's no comparison.

Quite the reverse - there are events in the US that have banned carbon rims because of heat-induced failures on long descents with rim brakes.

Abuse any braking system and it will fail eventually. I trust disc brakes totally

thegreatdivide

meanredspider wrote:

Mercia Man wrote:

Quite the reverse - there are events in the US that have banned carbon rims because of heat-induced failures on long descents with rim brakes.

It was one US Gran Fondo - the Levi Dopeheimer - that 'advised' riders not to use 'carbon clinchers'.

meanredspider

thegreatdivide wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

Quite the reverse - there are events in the US that have banned carbon rims because of heat-induced failures on long descents with rim brakes.

It was one US Gran Fondo - the Levi Dopeheimer - that 'advised' riders not to use 'carbon clinchers'.

There's several that have been posted on the Volagi FB group that outright banned carbon clinchers (you can imagine that disc riders are a bit smug about it)

cycleclinic

The deda Ran is a 875g frame with a 400g ish fork for disc brakes now. I have worked out a sub 7kg build with Shimano's R785 disc brake system is that light enough.

You will to really abuse shimano new systems to get them to over heat.