Using a Go Pro

t4tomo

your mates will thank you for not subjecting them to watching the footage, editted or not.

How much tediuosly dull go pro 7 similar footage of all sports must there be clogging up you tube etc.

mopst of the footage is so shakey it unwatchable and with massive wind noise. Skiing footage is probably duller to be fair - just lots of white going past the camera filmed by fat blokes with go pro's attached to their head looking like teletubbies.

Also how many incidents have their been of a helmet cam smashijng backm through a helmet on crashing and making the whiole thing worse. I certainly wouldnt want a chunk of metal strapped to my bonce

slowbike

t4tomo wrote:

your mates will thank you for not subjecting them to watching the footage, editted or not.

How much tediuosly dull go pro 7 similar footage of all sports must there be clogging up you tube etc.

mopst of the footage is so shakey it unwatchable and with massive wind noise. Skiing footage is probably duller to be fair - just lots of white going past the camera filmed by fat blokes with go pro's attached to their head looking like teletubbies.

Also how many incidents have their been of a helmet cam smashijng backm through a helmet on crashing and making the whiole thing worse. I certainly wouldnt want a chunk of metal strapped to my bonce

In reverse order
1) Go pro is made mostly of plastic - as is the waterproof case and mounting bracket. Number of incidents - don't know as it's not reported, however, GoPro have said that their mounts should break away before any additional damage could occur because of it. I have a GoPro and would concur that their mounts are not particularly strong - which is why I use a tether too.

2) A boring subject will be boring - unless it's creatively edited and even then probably only means something to the people involved. Skiing/boarding footage can be quite interesting if you have someone else as the subject - perhaps switching to first person shots in the editing.

3) YouTube don't seem to worry - yes there are plenty of dull videos - but they are dull because of the single point of view footage and lack of creative editing - although dull footage can be handy for others to reccy a course.

I would think that footage of CX racing could be quite interesting - but it'd need footage from several bikes as well as static cameras, perhaps the addition of drone shots too for a different perspective. If it was just a 1st person shot from someone spat out the back and riding alone for 30 minutes and unedited then it'll be quite boring ....

tgotb

I don't have any problem with people posting boring footage to YouTube, so long as I'm not forced to watch it. Some people seem to get a lot of enjoyment out of shooting and editing footage; even if the end result is dull, that doesn't take away the pleasure they've already gained from putting it together.

Another factor is that people generally enjoy watching footage of themselves. For instance a mate of mine put together a fantastic video of a ski trip we did a couple of years ago (albeit shot with stationary video cameras rather than Go Pros) and put it on YouTube. It would probably be terminally boring to anyone who wasn't there, but I still enjoy watching it - it's a bit like looking back through a holiday photo album. A lot of people use YouTube in this way; it's more a convenient way to distribute videos between friends than an attempt to distribute the footage to random strangers...

bendertherobot

TGOTB wrote:

Another factor is that people generally enjoy watching footage of themselves. For instance a mate of mine put together a fantastic video of a ski trip we did a couple of years ago (albeit shot with stationary video cameras rather than Go Pros) and put it on YouTube. It would probably be terminally boring to anyone who wasn't there, but I still enjoy watching it - it's a bit like looking back through a holiday photo album. A lot of people use YouTube in this way; it's more a convenient way to distribute videos between friends than an attempt to distribute the footage to random strangers...

My mate is doing a blog of his first year CX'ing. So he has loads of photos, his videos and now, some of mine. Using a combination of things, mainly Google+, he should be able to put a nice storyboard up.

It won't win an Oscar. It won't interest many people. But, for me, and him, as you say, it's exactly like a holiday album. But with more/less suffering.

bendertherobot

t4tomo wrote:

Also how many incidents have their been of a helmet cam smashijng backm through a helmet on crashing and making the whiole thing worse. I certainly wouldnt want a chunk of metal strapped to my bonce

Is that a rhetorical question? If not, no idea. Do you know? Anecdotal evidence suggests Schumacher suffered from this. But, anecdotally, could have been equally caused by wearing a helmet

I have to say though, helmet cam stuff is awful, you have to get the angle right and then keep your head still. I find that on the bars, and as close to the stem as possible, is the best place.

ugo.santalucia

On a holistic note... why do you want to involve more people in the sport? The races are already overcrowded and I have the feeling more people will not result in more money or more races in the calendar... it will just mean bigger fields, like it's the case for cat 3/4 road races. I stand to be corrected, but the number of road races has actually gone down over the past 10 years, despite the number of entrants going up.
I don't think BC has any interest in promoting or even supporting a non olympic sport that generates insignificant revenue worldwide... if I was racing, I'd probably want to keep it quiet and limit the number of people involved to get a better starting position, rather than having fields of 100+ riders spread over a mile and starting with 70 guys ahead of you...

just a thought...

tgotb

ugo.santalucia wrote:

On a holistic note... why do you want to involve more people in the sport? The races are already overcrowded and I have the feeling more people will not result in more money or more races in the calendar... it will just mean bigger fields, like it's the case for cat 3/4 road races. I stand to be corrected, but the number of road races has actually gone down over the past 10 years, despite the number of entrants going up.
I don't think BC has any interest in promoting or even supporting a non olympic sport that generates insignificant revenue worldwide... if I was racing, I'd probably want to keep it quiet and limit the number of people involved to get a better starting position, rather than having fields of 100+ riders spread over a mile and starting with 70 guys ahead of you...

just a thought...

It's a valid question to ask.

My personal view is that more people can only be a good thing. A long-term increase will either lead to a larger number of events, or bigger events. A larger number of events should mean you can enjoy the same level of competition with less travel; bigger events should lead to a higher standard at each event. As an example of the latter, I set myself a goal for a specific finishing position in my local league this year, based on my result last year. Despite raising my game to a level that should have achieved this, I'm likely to be thwarted by some annoyingly good newcomers and improvers who keep beating me. This means that I will have to raise my game further for next season, and may still end up just outside the medals. The same thing happened to a friend last year; despite riding better, he ended up further down the standings. How can this possibly be a bad thing?

Races are run by cyclists; with a bit of drive from the right people, some of these newcomers will be persuaded to help run more races, the sport grows, more people have fun, everyone's a winner. Money isn't an issue, grass-roots cyclocross races are generally self-financing through the entry fees. I'm aiming to promote a new race next year, through my club, and others can do the same.

Allow the sport to shrink, and those who are left become big fish in a very small pond, which doesn't sound like my idea of fun at all.

I disagree with your assertion that BC has no interest in promoting non-Olympic sports; just look at the rise of sportives. I know of other sports where the national body is guilty of neglecting non-Olympic disciplines to a shocking level, but I've seen nothing to suggest that BC is doing the same. On the contrary, in four days time we have the first ever World Cup CX race on UK soil; on the following day, we have the opportunity to ride, quite literally, in Sven's tracks, and race each other around the same course :-)

andyp

ugo.santalucia

TGOTB wrote:

I disagree with your assertion that BC has no interest in promoting non-Olympic sports; just look at the rise of sportives.

Sportives are money spinners... they are run for charity or for profit... a big event like the Dragon ride is likely to generate something in the region of a quarter of a million pound just in entry fees... then, as the start early in the morning, there is all the extra income for the local area... hotels, restaurants, pubs, they all get a slice of the action. The ride London 100 is a multi million pound thing... you are really comparing worlds apart... a race in Luton is likely to generate what? 1500 quid in entry fees and some minor business for the gas stations on the M1?

tgotb

ugo.santalucia wrote:

TGOTB wrote:

I disagree with your assertion that BC has no interest in promoting non-Olympic sports; just look at the rise of sportives.

Sportives are money spinners... they are run for charity or for profit... a big event like the Dragon ride is likely to generate something in the region of a quarter of a million pound just in entry fees... then, as the start early in the morning, there is all the extra income for the local area... hotels, restaurants, pubs, they all get a slice of the action. The ride London 100 is a multi million pound thing... you are really comparing worlds apart... a race in Luton is likely to generate what? 1500 quid in entry fees and some minor business for the gas stations on the M1?

You're suggesting that BC promotes sportives in order to support regional economies? I think you may be confusing them with the Government.

Given that you appear never to have been to a British cyclocross race, and apparently have no interest in doing so, what on Earth do you think qualifies you to say that BC has no interest in promoting them?

As sports governing bodies go, BC is almost exemplary in promoting the grassroots sport. Kids' cycling clubs get huge levels of support, and unlike other sports I've been involved in there's a very strong ethos of providing equal support to all riders regardless of ability or potential. If you're a woman or U23 wanting to try cyclocross in the Central region, BC will even lend you a bike!

ugo.santalucia

TGOTB wrote:

Given that you appear never to have been to a British cyclocross race, and apparently have no interest in doing so, what on Earth do you think qualifies you to say that BC has no interest in promoting them?

There is absolutely no need to get touchy... I am not here criticising, I am here asking why you have a desire for the movement to grow in numbers and I have been quite clear I don't know as much as you, hence I ask... if you want me to accept your answers and be content, just say and I will leave the discussion.

Otherwise...
It seems to me cyclocross is following in the footsteps of road racing... people get more bikes with disc brakes and knobbly tyres and want to have a go... why not? The problem is if you look at road racing, where the same happened over the past decade... the number of races hasn't gone up, the number of entrants has... I have seen fields of 100 + riders lapping the 1500 mt long Hillingdon circuit and inevitably there is always someone who ends up in hospital. I don't think BC has the slightest interest in this activity and I wonder if they have any interest at all in amateur cyclocross... increasing fields will mean they will help to increase the number of races? If you look at road racing, I would say the opposite is true. Grassroot is a word that everybody likes, but is there anything for seniors and veterans?

You brought sportives to the table as an example... that is a world I know better, maybe even better than you having been involved in organising a popular one for a few years. It's a different proposition altogether... the "non competitive" nature of the event means they have to respond to the highway code rather than the UCI (or British Cycling) rulebook. They are loved or hated by the local community depending on how much money they bring to the area... the Dragon Ride is very popular in an otherwise deprived area, despite being a profit driven event, while pretty much any sportive in Surrey is opposed by the local affluent community. Regardless, organising a sportive is a different proposition and essentially it comes down to money and/or club time. If it's for charity, then it will be based on volunteers from local clubs, if it's a profit ran event, then it has to balance the books to happen. After that, it's just about convincing the local authorities that every possible risk has been assessed... a box ticking exercise.

With races, I understand, it seems there is far less money and it seems therefore far more difficult to put together the event... as you need to rely on volunteers without benefiting from the charity attractive... essentially you need a rota of racers who every now and again need to marshall rather than race.

bendertherobot

Deprived area?

ugo.santalucia

bendertherobot wrote:

Deprived area?

As I understand, the area around Bridgend is a rather poor/deprived area... Bridgend itself was on the news not long ago for being the UK capital of teenage suicides... the point being that money pumped in the local economy is well received

tgotb

ugo.santalucia wrote:

TGOTB wrote:

Given that you appear never to have been to a British cyclocross race, and apparently have no interest in doing so, what on Earth do you think qualifies you to say that BC has no interest in promoting them?

There is absolutely no need to get touchy... I am not here criticising, I am here asking why you have a desire for the movement to grow in numbers and I have been quite clear I don't know as much as you, hence I ask... if you want me to accept your answers and be content, just say and I will leave the discussion.

I'm not getting touchy; you're making some quite substantial claims about BC's lack of support for cyclocross, and non-Olympic disciplines in general, and I'm wondering what your basis is for making those claims? I wouldn't profess to be so knowledgeable about a sport I hadn't actually done.

ugo.santalucia wrote:

With races, I understand, it seems there is far less money and it seems therefore far more difficult to put together the event... as you need to rely on volunteers without benefiting from the charity attractive... essentially you need a rota of racers who every now and again need to marshall rather than race.

That's exactly right, which is why money's a complete red herring. My observation is that people generally run sportives to make money (whether for a commercial organisation or a charity). By contrast, people generally run races because they want to make a contribution to the sport. The only time money becomes an issue is when entry fees can't cover the cost of an event, and increasing attendances is only going to make that easier. Race organisers generally aim to break even, rather than to make a profit.

BC's role isn't to organise races, and to the best of my knowledge it never has been. That responsibility falls to local clubs, and as a general principle clubs with active racers should also be promoting races, and using their members to do the legwork. BC's role is to provide a framework within which those races can be organised (for instance by providing rules, insurance, online entry, training for commissaires etc). Grassroots cycling is effectively run by the cyclists, for the cyclists, and part of being a member of a cycling club is that you contribute to the club's activities.

If cyclocross gains in popularity, we may need more races, but that growth means there should be more people available to put on those races. Where I think cycling has had issues recently, is with the "pay and play" mentality, no doubt encouraged by sportives and triathlons, where some people expect to be able to pay their entry fee and take part in events without ever giving anything back. This requires strong leadership at the club level to educate their members that this is not the ethos of amateur cycle racing. Fortunately, the vast majority of riders I see at cross races belong to clubs that have a strong track record of promoting races, which is why I'm optimistic for the future of the sport.

bendertherobot

ugo.santalucia wrote:

bendertherobot wrote:

Deprived area?

As I understand, the area around Bridgend is a rather poor/deprived area... Bridgend itself was on the news not long ago for being the UK capital of teenage suicides... the point being that money pumped in the local economy is well received

I'm not quite sure of your logic here. The people from the deprived areas aren't taking part in the Dragon. And virtually all of them aren't benefitting from it.

Bridgend is a pretty big mix btw. No suicides of stastical significance in many years and a pretty big mix of the affluent and deprived. Much like most of Wales and, outside the home counties, England............

ugo.santalucia

TGOTB wrote:

If cyclocross gains in popularity, we may need more races, but that growth means there should be more people available to put on those races..

It hasn't happened for road racing though... massive increase in the base (3rd and 4th cat) resulted in a reduction in the number of races. Nobody I know who took up racing has ever marshalled or thought of doing so. When our club organised TTs, it was always a bother to find volunteers to marshal. Cyclocross involves travelling longer distances than your local TT, so even worse.
My feeling is that for every 100 new enthusiasts, you might get one who wants to get involved in training as a marshall and the numbers might not add up.
You need club cluture, you are right in that... essentially you need people who have time and are willing to dedicate it to the activity... most people in cycling clubs these days seem to be on the time crunched side

ugo.santalucia

bendertherobot wrote:

I'm not quite sure of your logic here. The people from the deprived areas aren't taking part in the Dragon. And virtually all of them aren't benefitting from it.

Of course you understand the logic... businesses in Bridgend benefit greatly from the Dragon ride. It's one weekend on the calendar where hotels/B&Bs and camping sites are full, restaurants are full, pubs are full... what's not to like for the local community?

bendertherobot

ugo.santalucia wrote:

bendertherobot wrote:

I'm not quite sure of your logic here. The people from the deprived areas aren't taking part in the Dragon. And virtually all of them aren't benefitting from it.

Of course you understand the logic... businesses in Bridgend benefit greatly from the Dragon ride. It's one weekend on the calendar where hotels/B&Bs and camping sites are full, restaurants are full, pubs are full... what's not to like for the local community?

Well, the event is in Margam, an affluent area, rather than Bridgend. There are no nearby businesses of a non hospitality nature to benefit in any significant way.

The hotels will. Those nearby will go quite quick. There aren't a massive amount of them. So there will be a fair spread between Bridgend, Swansea, Cardiff, etc.

So your label of benefit to a deprived area is actually pretty narrow minded. We have deprivation. The Dragon goes through some of it. I'm not sure that the Dragon contributes very much to any of the deprived areas in any significant way.

andyp

ugo.santalucia wrote:

When our club organised TTs, it was always a bother to find volunteers to marshal. Cyclocross involves travelling longer distances than your local TT, so even worse.
My feeling is that for every 100 new enthusiasts, you might get one who wants to get involved in training as a marshall and the numbers might not add up.
You need club cluture, you are right in that... essentially you need people who have time and are willing to dedicate it to the activity... most people in cycling clubs these days seem to be on the time crunched side

Finding enough marshalls is always an issue, irrespective of the discipline. My club hosted a round of the south London summer series in 2013, and I had 4 people who'd previously said they'd assist, bail on the day because of work commitments. Thankfully two people I'd never met before, but who were interested in cyclocross, volunteered to do sign on. I think most people who are members of cycling clubs understand that they need to assist in putting on events if amateur cycling is to continue in the UK.

I'm not sure I agree with your assertion that cyclocross involves travelling further than TTs, especially in London. This season the London League will host 5 events that are within 20 minutes of cycling distance from my south London home, with another 3 inside the M25. Of these events, 3 are held at new venues that have been used in the past 2 years, all of which were sourced, for the want of a better description, by someone who works for BC.

I don't own a car so rely on either public transport or cycling to get to events, I'd struggle to compete in TTs without a car, but can easily ride the majority of the London League events without one.

ugo.santalucia

bendertherobot wrote:

Well, the event is in Margam, an affluent area, rather than Bridgend. There are no nearby businesses of a non hospitality nature to benefit in any significant way.

Didn't know that... when I did it a few years back it did start from Bridgend and local businesses were very happy about the event.

Last year I did the Etape Cymru... we stayed in Wrexham and the B&B lady was very supportive of the event, although she complained it was on the same weekend as some gathering of old war veterans or something, which didn't work out as well... anyway... all good for local business... I mean, let's face it Bridgend is not exactly Cannes when it comes to tourism, so if there are a few happenings over the year, it has to be a good thing

cyclingsheep

One issue, with London/Central leagues does seem to be a lack of qualified commissaries as highlighted by the need to cancel the first round of the league due to a lack of one. I realise that on that particular weekend there were several other major CX events on (the 3 Peaks being one) but I wonder if BC puts enough effort into training for these volunteers? As far as I know, and will happily be corrected, there has only been one course run for CX commissaries and that was before the season started. Yes I realise you need people trained before the season but I wonder whether it wouldn't be good to cash in later in the season when newbies to the sport and those wanting to give more to a sport they've fallen in love with are possibly more receptive to the idea of volunteering?
As for comparing road racing to CX one of the big differences is venues. Schools are always looking for extra revenue so having a CX race over a weekend that doesn't inconvenience the school is a no brainer. Far easier than looking for quiet roads or specially built circuits to race on and all the problems you have with local authorities. I'm not sure how TGOTB is getting on with a venue for his club to put on a race but would be curious to know.

devhads

It hasn't happened for road racing though... massive increase in the base (3rd and 4th cat) resulted in a reduction in the number of races. Nobody I know who took up racing has ever marshalled or thought of doing so. When our club organised TTs, it was always a bother to find volunteers to marshal. Cyclocross involves travelling longer distances than your local TT, so even worse.

The difference with cyclocross is it's far more inclusive in that it actually encourages more kids to race. You'll find that a lot of the marshalls at races are parents of kid's that are members of the club but don't actually race themselves.

ugo.santalucia

cyclingsheep wrote:

Schools are always looking for extra revenue so having a CX race over a weekend that doesn't inconvenience the school is a no brainer.

I'd love to see the face of the head teacher on the monday morning, after 100 bikes on knobbly tyres have devastaded their green area...

I did like the Esher common idea though... but I suspect Surrey dog walkers and horse riders would oppose pretty hard!

ugo.santalucia

devhads wrote:

The difference with cyclocross is it's far more inclusive in that it actually encourages more kids to race. You'll find that a lot of the marshalls at races are parents of kid's that are members of the club but don't actually race themselves.

You might be right in that...

bendertherobot

ugo.santalucia wrote:

bendertherobot wrote:

Well, the event is in Margam, an affluent area, rather than Bridgend. There are no nearby businesses of a non hospitality nature to benefit in any significant way.

Didn't know that... when I did it a few years back it did start from Bridgend and local businesses were very happy about the event.

Last year I did the Etape Cymru... we stayed in Wrexham and the B&B lady was very supportive of the event, although she complained it was on the same weekend as some gathering of old war veterans or something, which didn't work out as well... anyway... all good for local business... I mean, let's face it Bridgend is not exactly Cannes when it comes to tourism, so if there are a few happenings over the year, it has to be a good thing

Pencoed In fact no entrant had an easier start than me. I cycled the 1/4 mile to the start.

The effect on Pencoed was negligible though. McD's was full in the morning as were the two hotels (Travelodge and Premier Inn). We don't have any good pubs. There's a much wider benefit to the economy and, as I say, I doubt any of it ever reaches any deprived area.

VamP

ugo.santalucia wrote:

On a holistic note... why do you want to involve more people in the sport? The races are already overcrowded and I have the feeling more people will not result in more money or more races in the calendar... it will just mean bigger fields, like it's the case for cat 3/4 road races. I stand to be corrected, but the number of road races has actually gone down over the past 10 years, despite the number of entrants going up.
I don't think BC has any interest in promoting or even supporting a non olympic sport that generates insignificant revenue worldwide... if I was racing, I'd probably want to keep it quiet and limit the number of people involved to get a better starting position, rather than having fields of 100+ riders spread over a mile and starting with 70 guys ahead of you...

just a thought...

Your feeling would be wrong. Year on year Eastern League has increased number of races on any given race day from 5 to 6, and the number of fixtures from 14 to 18. So that's 108 races this season instead of 70 last year.

It does seem a bit bizarre that for someone with no interest in the sport you seem to hold quite strident and largely ill-founded opinions, which you are very keen to share with the world at large.

imposter2.0

ugo.santalucia wrote:

cyclingsheep wrote:

Schools are always looking for extra revenue so having a CX race over a weekend that doesn't inconvenience the school is a no brainer.

I'd love to see the face of the head teacher on the monday morning, after 100 bikes on knobbly tyres have devastaded their green area...

Grassland recovers very quickly - potentially in less than a fortnight if the conditions are right. It's simply not an issue and landowners are always briefed to expect it anyway...

antsmithmk

VamP wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

On a holistic note... why do you want to involve more people in the sport? The races are already overcrowded and I have the feeling more people will not result in more money or more races in the calendar... it will just mean bigger fields, like it's the case for cat 3/4 road races. I stand to be corrected, but the number of road races has actually gone down over the past 10 years, despite the number of entrants going up.
I don't think BC has any interest in promoting or even supporting a non olympic sport that generates insignificant revenue worldwide... if I was racing, I'd probably want to keep it quiet and limit the number of people involved to get a better starting position, rather than having fields of 100+ riders spread over a mile and starting with 70 guys ahead of you...

just a thought...

Your feeling would be wrong. Year on year Eastern League has increased number of races on any given race day from 5 to 6, and the number of fixtures from 14 to 18. So that's 108 races this season instead of 70 last year.

It does seem a bit bizarre that for someone with no interest in the sport you seem to hold quite strident and largely ill-founded opinions, which you are very keen to share with the world at large.

Thought I should chip in with my central league experiences. The number of races has increased this year too. We now have races for under 10, 12, 14, 16, junior men, senior men, vet 40-49, vet 50+ and women.

The beauty of a CX course is that they can easily take 2-3 categories racing in waves with little disruption. It wouldn't be possible to hold a crit or road race in the same way.

Ugo - you've got the gear, put your money where your mouth is! See you at the central cx at hillingdon mid Dec?

thedomestique

TGOTB wrote:

there are enough YouTube videos to suggest the practice is commonplace (I occasionally use them to get an idea of what a course will be like if I haven't ridden it). There are also a few rather exciting videos shot from under-saddle cameras in UCI Pro road race sprints (where multiple-bike pileups are commonplace) so it seems that even the upper echelons of the UCI aren't that bothered.

I race every week with five cameras on one bike. Helmet, Bar, Seat, Chest, and one pointing back at me. I edit them together into a story about the race for entertainment. I know from the people who approach me at races, the riders who film these POV videos do more to get people excited about the sport than just about anything else. If you come to a race, sure, you might get the bug. But, when guys (like me) see the race from the perspective of the rider, it makes you believe you can do it.

This video shows the benefit of 5 cameras for story telling. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6EgbLNW_nw The POV part starts at 3:10.

There is always the axiom, "it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission."

johnboy183

With reference to the earlier comment about uci approved races and cameras, I'm pretty sure that Ive seen somewhere that at yesterday's race at MK, katie Compton had a camera attached. However I've not searched for it today so don't know if true. Anyone?