Richmond Park - well that was interesting

lostboysaint

Well Sunday was the first time I've got to the SW London cycling mecca that is Richmond Park. I'm informed by my local guide that it was one of the busiest days he's ever seen there. It was certainly an eye-opener for me as I don't think I've ever seen that many bikes anywhere whilst out on a ride - in fact it was as much of an eye opener for me as it had been for him when he came south to ride with me last week and we did two hours in the Hampshire countryside and saw 7 bikes! But the volume of bikes wasn't the biggest surprise. Neither was the behaviour of the car traffic which was, without exception, very good. No, the biggest surprise was the arrogance and downright ignorance of the cyclists that should clearly know the basics significantly better - fundamental stuff like rights of way at roundabouts (at both entrances and at the road up to the Pens Road cafe) and signalling both for junctions and overtaking. Unsurprisingly, this resulted in a lot of near misses and clear bad feeling between various groups/clubs/individuals and as entertaining as it was for me - especially when cut up by someone who I had right of way over at the Robin Hood entrance roundabout - and having voiced my disapproval he decided that his "timed lap" was worth abandoning in favour of "having a word" until I got off my bike.

Is it really a good thing to be that self-centred on a ride? Is the sport (and you're own riding) benefiting from behaving like a bunch of arrogant arseholes? Is it any wonder that the great British public* regard cyclists as some sort of plague and the loss of one or two under the wheels of their car/van/lorry as simply darwinism in action? I'd have to say that having seen what I saw yesterday I'm now not surprised at the public perception of our "sport" (remembering that this is a PUBLIC park, not a closed circuit). Perhaps it's about time that some of our number took a good look at themselves and behaved in a manner becoming of sensible, polite, well mannered people that they probably are in their every day life** not the arrogant wanker they become when they don their lycra and turn into a wannabe pro.

*generalism alert

** again, that's the optimist in me - perhaps they're all just arseholes all the time.

Flame away.

BeaconRuth

Just (yet) another way that things are very different in London compared to the rest of the country?

Ruth

Brakeless

10 square miles of London is not representative of anything other than 10 square miles of London.

VmanF3

There are some absolute tools that ride around London. Pretty much the same as everywhere else.

lostboysaint

BeaconRuth wrote:

Just (yet) another way that things are very different in London compared to the rest of the country?

Ruth

That was my feeling. Hence the post. But why? What does it gain them? (Other than enhancing their heart rate as they get wound up!)

lostboysaint

Brakeless wrote:

10 square miles of London is not representative of anything other than 10 square miles of London.

Quite, hence my comparison with my usual riding experiences and asking why on earth anyone would want to behave like that?

slowbike

lostboysaint wrote:

BeaconRuth wrote:

Just (yet) another way that things are very different in London compared to the rest of the country?

Ruth

That was my feeling. Hence the post. But why? What does it gain them? (Other than enhancing their heart rate as they get wound up!)

Why?
Because they have a sense of entitlement? - You should've known he was doing a flying lap and given way...
Because they have a sense of "everyone else is out to get me" ? - if you're not him or his mates on bikes then you're obviously against him ...

or just because he was inattentive enough not to anticipate the situation himself ...

lostboysaint

Quite!

bigmat

I think you'd find the same issues with that concentrated a volume of cyclists anywhere to be honest. Most sportives have their fair share of wannabe pros acting like choppers, it isn't exclusive to London. What is unusual about Richmond Park (and getting worse year on year) is the volume of cyclists there. Most of them are probably fine but when there are that many you'll almost always find a few idiots. I avoid it these days, if I do go (a handful of times a year) it will be late on a summer evening, or first thing in the morning on a weekend, when it is relatively quiet.

Some great cyclists and clubs in London area, all this critical generalising just makes you sound like yokels from the provinces with a chip on your shoulders!

lostboysaint

BigMat wrote:

Some great cyclists and clubs in London area, all this critical generalising just makes you sound like yokels from the provinces with a chip on your shoulders!

Yep, a yokel from the South coast, but without the chip - not sure why I'd have one when what I've got down here is clearly better!

marcusjb

I live 5 minutes from the park and use it quite a bit for training - mainly early or late though. It has got out of control busy over the past few years.

It's brilliant! More bums on saddles is great! I love it. I rarely ride there in peak times - if I do, then I am going to be on one of my more commuting/shopping bikes and not going fast. But I do love that there are so many people out there enjoying riding a bike.

What's not great is those that think Saturday mid-morning is the time to be doing fast laps and chaingangs. If you go at those peak times, you have to accept that you're going to have to slow it down and enjoy the views.

If you're serious about going fast - 6am.

veronese68

I live close to Richmond Park, when its going to be busy I avoid it like the plague for the reasons you mention. There is a meeting about cycling in Richmond Park coming up soon, I won't go because it will turn into a bun fight. I sometimes cycle, drive, walk or ride a motorcycle in the park. It's really quite simple, treat other users of the park with respect and everything works as it should. Act like a selfish twunt the believes the world revolves around you and problems arise. Because there are so many people around their will be more of them and their behaviour will inevitably impact many others. The small minority of badly behaved cyclists give way too much fuel to the fire of the very vocal anti-cycling types.
There have been calls to get the park shut to traffic, some cyclists seem to believe this will result in their own personal race track. It won't, there will be children and dog walkers in the road and it will be impossible to get any speed up without endangering others. Unfortunately the same percentage of idiots will still try for a fast time with no thought about the consequences. The result of a grown man at full tilt hitting a toddler on a balance bike doesn't bare thinking about. As a result I hope it stays as it is because the cars keep the roads reasonably clear on quiet days.
Don't get me wrong I love the park and living so close to it, but it would be best if everybody else would f@#& off out and leave it for me. ;-)

lostboysaint

marcusjb wrote:

I live 5 minutes from the park and use it quite a bit for training - mainly early or late though. It has got out of control busy over the past few years.

It's brilliant! More bums on saddles is great! I love it. I rarely ride there in peak times - if I do, then I am going to be on one of my more commuting/shopping bikes and not going fast. But I do love that there are so many people out there enjoying riding a bike.

What's not great is those that think Saturday mid-morning is the time to be doing fast laps and chaingangs. If you go at those peak times, you have to accept that you're going to have to slow it down and enjoy the views.

If you're serious about going fast - 6am.

Quite!

ugo.santalucia

Someone suggested making it into a one way only for cars, which seems to make a lot of sense to me, given the road is quite narrow

veronese68

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Someone suggested making it into a one way only for cars, which seems to make a lot of sense to me, given the road is quite narrow

Not a bad idea at all, especially at the top from Ham to Kingston or on Dark Hill. My only concern would be anyone cycling against the flow may find a car right out on their side. Many drivers don't pay any attention to painted cycle lanes and will happily cross a painted line to pass any cyclist holding them up, even a solid white line on a blind bend.

ugo.santalucia

Veronese68 wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Someone suggested making it into a one way only for cars, which seems to make a lot of sense to me, given the road is quite narrow

Not a bad idea at all, especially at the top from Ham to Kingston or on Dark Hill. My only concern would be anyone cycling against the flow may find a car right out on their side. Many drivers don't pay any attention to painted cycle lanes and will happily cross a painted line to pass any cyclist holding them up, even a solid white line on a blind bend.

I confess when I am well over 20 mph (typically between Robin Hood and Roehampton) I stick to the middle of the road in RP... if someone honks and wants to pass I show them my mid finger... over the years I have picked up some pretty nasty habits... :oops:

prhymeate

Veronese68 wrote:

There is a meeting about cycling in Richmond Park coming up soon, I won't go because it will turn into a bun fight.

Do you have any more details on the meeting? I doubt I'll go, but I'd be interested to see if there is anything put online afterwards about what was discussed etc.

Old_Timer

This seems much like the MUP we have here in the states in many areas. Most riders, pedestrians and cyclist are courteous and respectful of others. Its those out to set a new KOM or a Strava/Garmin Connect section in a busy crowded area that upset the apple cart. Why a rider would want to do a speed run or a fast group pace line in such congestion is beyond me.

There are louts on all sides of this, cyclist aren't immune to being an idiot about their manners, or just lacking some common sense about their actions. I suppose my living on a rural village area has spoilt my thoughts about city riding, especially on these trails or MUP roadways. I can do my rides for a solid week without seeing another cyclist, and luckily the motorist are courteous towards me and the few other cyclist out here. We all try and reciprocate to the motorist. I'd not wish to ride in a congested setting like this park seems to be.

I dearly want to ride in the UK, just not on such a place as this one, at peak times.

veronese68

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Veronese68 wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Someone suggested making it into a one way only for cars, which seems to make a lot of sense to me, given the road is quite narrow

Not a bad idea at all, especially at the top from Ham to Kingston or on Dark Hill. My only concern would be anyone cycling against the flow may find a car right out on their side. Many drivers don't pay any attention to painted cycle lanes and will happily cross a painted line to pass any cyclist holding them up, even a solid white line on a blind bend.

I confess when I am well over 20 mph (typically between Robin Hood and Roehampton) I stick to the middle of the road in RP... if someone honks and wants to pass I show them my mid finger... over the years I have picked up some pretty nasty habits... :oops:

Best not to antagonise a fool in a car, but you know that. What annoys me is they wouldn't honk at a car doing that speed that had only one person in it. There is no difference as far as they are concerned other than perception.

marcusjb

Veronese68 wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Veronese68 wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Someone suggested making it into a one way only for cars, which seems to make a lot of sense to me, given the road is quite narrow

Not a bad idea at all, especially at the top from Ham to Kingston or on Dark Hill. My only concern would be anyone cycling against the flow may find a car right out on their side. Many drivers don't pay any attention to painted cycle lanes and will happily cross a painted line to pass any cyclist holding them up, even a solid white line on a blind bend.

I confess when I am well over 20 mph (typically between Robin Hood and Roehampton) I stick to the middle of the road in RP... if someone honks and wants to pass I show them my mid finger... over the years I have picked up some pretty nasty habits... :oops:

Best not to antagonise a fool in a car, but you know that. What annoys me is they wouldn't honk at a car doing that speed that had only one person in it. There is no difference as far as they are concerned other than perception.

I assume they are honking because they know me, so give them a cheery wave.

Bozman

It's London what do you expect, it doesn't matter if you're on a bike or walking the "locals" are still blessed with the same manners or lack of.

mcvw

Unfortunately this behaviour isn't just specific to cycling as I've recently noticed a similar level of ignorance/arrogance when I swim (twice a week - often at Hampton open air).

I'm not as fast as the tri-athletes/club swimmers in the fast-lane, but I'm way faster than the perfumed Doris's in the slow-lane so by default I hit the medium lane. And pretty much without exception a Phelps wannabee will inevitably swap from the fast-lane into the medium lane because they believe they are obviously way more important than everybody else and demand/expect an entire lane to themselves.

Most of the time I ignore this narcissistic/arrogant type behaviour as I work in Canary Wharf on a regular basis - and observe this behaviour/attitude all too frequently - however, that doesn't make it right for these 'people' to behave in the manner they do and often a polite word can remedy/resolve the situation. Unfortunately I've also noticed (first hand) that upon occasions the polite word approach can rapidly develop into threats/aggression from the other party involved (the time this takes is more than often equal to the other parties IQ in seconds).

I don't really have a point to make as such - but I believe that the longer/more that people tolerate behavior of this nature - the more it will become 'accepted'. Whether it's in London or Leeds or Loch Ness, it's really long overdue and time to stand up and show that's unacceptable.

Dorset_Boy

Bozman wrote:

It's London what do you expect, it doesn't matter if you're on a bike or walking the "locals" are still blessed with the same manners or lack of.

Tis a London thing !

Best not encourage them to get out of the (s)(c)ity.

ugo.santalucia

mcvw wrote:

Unfortunately this behaviour isn't just specific to cycling as I've recently noticed a similar level of ignorance/arrogance when I swim (twice a week - often at Hampton open air).

I'm not as fast as the tri-athletes/club swimmers in the fast-lane, but I'm way faster than the perfumed Doris's in the slow-lane so by default I hit the medium lane. And pretty much without exception a Phelps wannabee will inevitably swap from the fast-lane into the medium lane because they believe they are obviously way more important than everybody else and demand/expect an entire lane to themselves.

Most of the time I ignore this narcissistic/arrogant type behaviour as I work in Canary Wharf on a regular basis - and observe this behaviour/attitude all too frequently - however, that doesn't make it right for these 'people' to behave in the manner they do and often a polite word can remedy/resolve the situation. Unfortunately I've also noticed (first hand) that upon occasions the polite word approach can rapidly develop into threats/aggression from the other party involved (the time this takes is more than often equal to the other parties IQ in seconds).

I don't really have a point to make as such - but I believe that the longer/more that people tolerate behavior of this nature - the more it will become 'accepted'. Whether it's in London or Leeds or Loch Ness, it's really long overdue and time to stand up and show that's unacceptable.

I agree... there are rogue idiots and there are organised gangs... the biggest problem is Richmond Park is caused by large club chaingangs... we all know there is one particular club that meet regularly in the park for fast chaingangs... given the size of the club, it would be about time they addressed the behaviour of their members. It's not hard, it's just about retiring the membership to those that do not comply with an acceptable behaviour

mcvw

Withdrawing a membership would likely only be a temporary measure - and may only enrage the individual(s) involved - resulting in them starting their own 'above the law' club (NB: I didn't use the word 'outlaw' - as that may imply an element of 'cool' which they are certainly not!).

It all harks back to being a responsible citizen/cyclist. Motorcyclists don't race around public roads en-masse - neither do BMX'ers or MTB'ers (ok, some do off-road), so what gives road-cyclists the belief that they can?

I'd be in favour of cyclists having 'registrations' AND insurance (I know some already do!) - making them more accountable for their actions.

I know we all love to zoom up and down hills on our bikes, but given the increasing traffic levels/and number of road users this is becoming more perilous.

I'm not saying don't go out and train (as hard as you see safe to do so), but racing is for tracks AND organised events - and should as such remain there.

ugo.santalucia

mcvw wrote:

Motorcyclists don't race around public roads en-masse -

Are you kidding me? Is there a worse bunch when it comes to road behaviour?

bigmat

I got honked at then aggressively overtaken the other day doing 32 in a 30 zone - just gave a shrug in a "WTF?" styley. A lot of drivers just can't get their head around sitting behind a cyclist, no matter what speed you are going. Saying that, most of us who have cycled in Richmond Park can't really play the moral superiority card as the 20mph speed limit applies to us as well!

lostboysaint

BigMat wrote:

I got honked at then aggressively overtaken the other day doing 32 in a 30 zone - just gave a shrug in a "WTF?" styley. A lot of drivers just can't get their head around sitting behind a cyclist, no matter what speed you are going. Saying that, most of us who have cycled in Richmond Park can't really play the moral superiority card as the 20mph speed limit applies to us as well!

Yeah, I may have forgotten that bit as well Although I did signal (correctly, not just with one finger) at the roundabout at the Robin Hood Gate roundabout.

VmanF3

ugo.santalucia wrote:

mcvw wrote:

Motorcyclists don't race around public roads en-masse -

Are you kidding me? Is there a worse bunch when it comes to road behaviour?

It's a middle aged man thing. The lardy middle aged man who used to get into sports bikes is now more likely to get permission from his wife to buy an expensive bike to play on instead, it's a bit safer, doesn't cost as much (although getting close) and they may get fit.

Sleeper Cell

VmanF3 wrote:

....permission from his wife to buy an expensive bike...

Permission. Nice.

marcusjb

mcvw wrote:

I'd be in favour of cyclists having 'registrations' AND insurance (I know some already do!) - making them more accountable for their actions.

Yep, brilliant idea; that scheme works so well with motorists.