off the peg disc wheelsets?

M1llh0use

Hi all.

Looking at buying a '15 synapse ultegra disc and have been offered a package with a % of the cost of the bike in accessories FOC. so got to thinking about different wheelsets for it.

what's out there as a factory/prebuilt/off the peg wheelset under £500 that's lighter/stronger than the Aksium ones that come as standard?

letap73

Don't discount hand built options, some indicators given on this website:
http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk/index.html

Or something like this:
http://www.kinesisbikes.co.uk/products/ ... ght-cxdisc

backo

Had the same question when I bought my disc cx bike a few months ago and ended up going handbuilt due to the complete lack of factory built offerings...Managed to get a set built weighing around 1700g for under £300.

What swung it for me was they should last a very long time provided I service the hubs regularly. All the factory built wheels I have used on my normal road bike over the years have needed replacing due to the brake track wearing down which obivously now wont happen with dics wheels

ugo.santalucia

Kinesis crosslight, Mavic Aksium and in the nonsensical price range Mavic Ksyrium... if you look at my blog there is an article on the crosslight

M1llh0use

letap73 wrote:

Don't discount hand built options, some indicators given on this website:
http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk/index.html

Or something like this:
http://www.kinesisbikes.co.uk/products/ ... ght-cxdisc

handbuilt aren't an option as part of the deal. hence asking for factory options.

janwal

Think the KInesis crosslights are back in stock at Wiggle,had an email last week.

bendertherobot

M1llh0use wrote:

Hi all.

Looking at buying a '15 synapse ultegra disc and have been offered a package with a % of the cost of the bike in accessories FOC. so got to thinking about different wheelsets for it.

what's out there as a factory/prebuilt/off the peg wheelset under £500 that's lighter/stronger than the Aksium ones that come as standard?

Ask them for some Archetype rims, some lightweight hubs and 64 spokes.

cycleclinic

Forget archetypes now for disc brake builds. Velocity Ailerons are wider deeper and stiffer. Also they are 450g proving that disc brake specific rims are lighter than rim brake ones, the spoke nipple bed seems thick enough as well, not sure how that's been managed.

For really light and tubeless only probbaly, there is the Stan's IRon cross. 385g and 20mm internal width like the aileron. 32H drilling is probably best. Those with novatec hubs and sensible Sapim race spokes and brass nipples would only be 100g more than the crosslight CX disc and a better wheelset. However both rims make wheels that cost more than the cross lights.

Off the peg though the cross lights are probably the best but as ugo points out they have a freehub that is not normally available (you should check availabiity before you buy) and pillar spokes which while available aftermarket I am not aware of any wheelbuilder who use them and stocks them.

Oh ugo what are the weight of that kenesis rear hub and do you know the bearing sizes. The novatec D772/d712 use a 6902 are the main bearings in these smaller axle diamter larger than 15mm?

bendertherobot

thecycleclinic wrote:

Forget archetypes now for disc brake builds. Velocity Ailerons are wider deeper and stiffer. Also they are 450g proving that disc brake specific rims are lighter than rim brake ones, the spoke nipple bed seems thick enough as well, not sure how that's been managed.

Why should you forget the 20g heavier, £30 cheaper Archetype?

cycleclinic

Well forget is a strong word if you have a budget. The archetype is not 470g. It has not been that weight since the ERD change a few years ago now. The actual average weight is 35g but is not the weight difference that is important as such. The archetype is 17.8mm wide internally the aileron is 20mm wide internally. That is difference that makes it worth it. Tyres come up a little wider and to me that is a good thing. given rim wear is not an issue the extra cost should be a one off. Disc brake bikes generally have good clearances for wide rubber. I have even managed to get new Challange Bianca Strada 30mm tyres on these (they came up at 31mm) but I almost failed to get them onto the archetype rim. What I am getting at for a tubeless rim these are quite good for tight fitting tyres.

Guess what tyres will be going my next bike the equilibrium disc. They even clear the stays with room to spare!

bendertherobot

thecycleclinic wrote:

Well forget is a strong word if you have a budget. The archetype is not 470g. It has not been that weight since the ERD change a few years ago now. The actual average weight is 35g but is not the weight difference that is important as such. The archetype is 17.8mm wide internally the aileron is 20mm wide internally. That is difference that makes it worth it. Tyres come up a little wider and to me that is a good thing. given rim wear is not an issue the extra cost should be a one off. Disc brake bikes generally have good clearances for wide rubber. I have even managed to get new Challange Bianca Strada 30mm tyres on these (they came up at 31mm) but I almost failed to get them onto the archetype rim. What I am getting at for a tubeless rim these are quite good for tight fitting tyres.

Guess what tyres will be going my next bike the equilibrium disc. They even clear the stays with room to spare!

But the Archetype already made tyres "a little wider" didn't it? More rounded? Wasn't that the selling point?

I'm not clear but are you saying that you can't get bigger (width) tyres on the Archetype? I'm running 33c on there at the moment quite happily. The only tyre that didn't play well was, interestingly, the Bianca Strada. Constantly blowing off the rim. To this day I'm not sure whether the Archetypes or tyres were at fault there.

rowlers

Hmmm, I've just got some archetype rim built onto 6800 disc hubs, you now telling me they are no good? They look sweet and so far handle great. What have I missed?

apreading

I think the point they are trying to make is not that the Archetype isnt as good as it was before, simply that the Aileron takes what made the Archetype great and does it even better.

bendertherobot

But also that the Archetype was ahead of the curve as well. It'll be interesting to see how they compare with any given tyre.

rowlers

Good 'cos I love my Archtypes!

ugo.santalucia

The Aileron is a tubeless ready rim... if you want to run tubeless, it's a better rim to do so... if you don't, then it's a more expensive rim that does pretty much the same job and that's pretty much all there is to it

fleshtuxedo

thecycleclinic wrote:

The actual average weight is 35g

Do you mean 435g ?

cycleclinic

The average weight difference between the aileron and archetype is 35g, that what I meant. 450g vd 485 although the latest batch of archetype seems to be about 480g again.

Well I built up a set of aileron this weekend for a new road disc brake bike (I have got the new equilibrium ti frame and fork) but have only mounted one tyre to it so far, the Challange strada bianca 30mm. I could barely get that tyre on a set of archetype rims but they almost slipped onto the aileron rims. They came up at 31mm and they fit in the frame so that my tyres choosen. HED belgain + rims are as wide internally and conti GP4000s II tyres 25mm come up at 28mm on these so I would expect the same on the aileron. The same tyre comes up at 27mm on the archetype. No much of change but it is there never the less.

Is it worth the extra money I think so, as the rims will never wear out, I also like the rims more without stickers than the archetype for disc brakes. The brake track even though anodised on the archetype still looks a brake track for me that a problem.

M1llh0use

cheers guys.

so basically it's hadbuilt territory only for the time being?

may just opt for cashmoney off of list price then and put it towards a wheelset later on.

thanks again for the thoughts...

bendertherobot

thecycleclinic wrote:

The average weight difference between the aileron and archetype is 35g, that what I meant. 450g vd 485 although the latest batch of archetype seems to be about 480g again.

Well I built up a set of aileron this weekend for a new road disc brake bike (I have got the new equilibrium ti frame and fork) but have only mounted one tyre to it so far, the Challange strada bianca 30mm. I could barely get that tyre on a set of archetype rims but they almost slipped onto the aileron rims. They came up at 31mm and they fit in the frame so that my tyres choosen. HED belgain + rims are as wide internally and conti GP4000s II tyres 25mm come up at 28mm on these so I would expect the same on the aileron. The same tyre comes up at 27mm on the archetype. No much of change but it is there never the less.

Is it worth the extra money I think so, as the rims will never wear out, I also like the rims more without stickers than the archetype for disc brakes. The brake track even though anodised on the archetype still looks a brake track for me that a problem.

I'm not sure what the last comment means. These are discs. You're not using the rim on either product.

M1llh0use

but the Archetype rims still have a brake track, even if it's not being used, that looks like a brake track. for a disc wheelset you would assume that the rime wouldn't look like it has a brake track...

ugo.santalucia

bendertherobot wrote:

I'm not sure what the last comment means. These are discs. You're not using the rim on either product.

What Malcolm means is that Archetype is a machined rim with a proper brake track, Aileron isn't. Basically the fact Archetype is a heavier rim despite having a narrower and shallower section is due to the fact they overbuild the side to compensate for rim wear upon braking, whilst a disc specific rim does not need that and can be built lighter.

Archetype is still a great choice for many reasons and still the best pound for pound rim for rim brakes, but these days I would also go for Aileron for a disc specific wheelset, if budget allows.

bendertherobot

But he also made the comment that "the rims will never wear out." The Archetype rims will never wear out either, regardless of whether, aesthetically, they look like there's a brake track there.

ugo.santalucia

bendertherobot wrote:

But he also made the comment that "the rims will never wear out." The Archetype rims will never wear out either, regardless of whether, aesthetically, they look like there's a brake track there.

That was to answer the criticism that Aileron are expensive rims... obviously there is no wear in either case... so, Aileron?

bendertherobot

ugo.santalucia wrote:

bendertherobot wrote:

But he also made the comment that "the rims will never wear out." The Archetype rims will never wear out either, regardless of whether, aesthetically, they look like there's a brake track there.

That was to answer the criticism that Aileron are expensive rims... obviously there is no wear in either case... so, Aileron?

Can't!!! I have a set of Archetypes that are two years old (in a month) which have never broken a spoke, which are 100% still true and which I've replaced a single cartridge bearing. And which have done around 10,000 miles.

Have to say, if I were building up now I'd get the Aileron cos I can afford it and they look cool. But those damn Archetypes just won't break!

bendertherobot

I forgot my winky. It'll have to do until there's a "Ugo builds stuff that just won't die" winky.

ugo.santalucia

bendertherobot wrote:

I forgot my winky. It'll have to do until there's a "Ugo builds stuff that just won't die" winky.

They will die... they must die... 'cause nothing lasts forever in the cold November rain (I mean October)

duckson

What options for hubs are there that would accommodate a 15mm front bolt through and a 10mm 135mm rear bolt through or standard rear quick release? (swappable).

Looking at Rose cdx and this is the spec apparently (not listed in their shop yet).

ugo.santalucia

duckson wrote:

What options for hubs are there that would accommodate a 15mm front bolt through and a 10mm 135mm rear bolt through or standard rear quick release? (swappable).

Looking at Rose cdx and this is the spec apparently (not listed in their shop yet).

Hope do all standards based on the same hub... if you look at BDOP cycling you can probably get Novatec in all configurations and the spares should you need to swap. the 541/542 combo are big beasts and roll extremely well under load... I have been on average 2 mph faster on the same descents since I fitted them

daddypig

bendertherobot wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

bendertherobot wrote:

But he also made the comment that "the rims will never wear out." The Archetype rims will never wear out either, regardless of whether, aesthetically, they look like there's a brake track there.

That was to answer the criticism that Aileron are expensive rims... obviously there is no wear in either case... so, Aileron?

Can't!!! I have a set of Archetypes that are two years old (in a month) which have never broken a spoke, which are 100% still true and which I've replaced a single cartridge bearing. And which have done around 10,000 miles.

Have to say, if I were building up now I'd get the Aileron cos I can afford it and they look cool. But those damn Archetypes just won't break!

you've done well to get 10k from your archetype rims, mine have done 4k and the braking surface is almost worn out!

cycleclinic

They will die bendertherobot just try clarks brake pads and ride the brakes in the wet, that will wear the rims out.