Hybrids v Road 'Racing' bikes.....

zak3737

I'm still sat here, wrestling with my conciense as to whether to go buy that new Roubaix or not, after testing it the other day, and finding out just how comfortable a setup it is.
Yes, I'm sure there are other equally comfortable Sportive bikes, but the Robaix is renowned after all.

However, on browsing the Spesh site (again), I found myself also checking out the 2015 'Sirrus' models, - I've got a Sirrus which I used for commuting a few years ago, complete with Cable Discs, but these days, my son has it up at Uni with him, and its been a great bike, still is in fact, we've just had it overhauled and new tryes and it bools along very nicely indeeed, even on 28c tyres etc etc.

The new 2015 Sirris range is mighty impressive, with the top of the range, the 'Expert Carbon Disc', as well as a full Carbon Frame and Zertz inserts, is also equipped with 105 gears etc, Hydraulic Discs, etc etc......very very nice indeed.

Which all begs the question, apart from not conforming with the 'architypal Roadie look' and drop bars, why do not more of us that want to ride 'comfortably', opt for something like the Sirrus ?
Has to be more comfortable and stable/controllable with normal bars and standard brake levers, - as a previous very experience Mountain Biker, I know all too well how good stopping is on standard bars & discs.

I guess the 30c tyres fitted on it as standard 'might' be a smidge large, but thats easily solved, and I'd hazard a guess that most of us 'normal' mortals would not only be as quick on it as we would be on any drop-bar 'Racer', - where lets be honest, a lot of us never use the drops.

No, I'm not trolling........just wondering......

jameses

Zak3737 wrote:

...I'd hazard a guess that most of us 'normal' mortals would not only be as quick on it as we would be on any drop-bar 'Racer', - where lets be honest, a lot of us never use the drops.

No, I'm not trolling........just wondering......

That's a bit of a sweeping statement. Personally, I reckon I spend about 40% of my time on the hoods, 40% on the drops and only 20% on the tops, and I don't claim to be anything other than an enthusiastic amateur. Quite aside from whatever small aero benefits there might be from riding on the hoods/drops at the speeds us mortals ride at, there's also the benefit of being able take pressure off certain muscle groups with different hand positions, meaning you can go for longer with less discomfort in the shoulders/neck/forearms.

So get the Roubaix!

Bobbinogs

Try riding a hybrid for 8 hours and then talk about comfortable hand positions...

As above, drop bars are great for offering a variety of positions that help to keep things moving around and give hand/arm/wrist muscles a rest, etc. Most riders I ride with spend at a lot of time on the hoods, some time on the bar and usually less time on the actual drops but you will often see folks changing the position around to suit the riding and alleviate fatigue.

Stop procrastinating and get the Roubaix. You know you want to, we know you want

bmxboy10

You will regret getting a hybrid been there done that. Trust what people are telling you and go with you instinct. You only live once so get on with it and if you are lucky you still have 6 weeks of ok weather to get out and ride which after all is what you want to do right? Sorry to be patronising but been there and got the t shirt.....

Dandelionclock30

When I was getting a new bike I also asked on here and everyone said get a road bike not a flat barred bike. Im so glad I took that advice.Honestly get a road bike but make sure it fits.

zak3737

I know what you're saying, but as someone who's ridden a lot on 'normal' flat bars, on MTB's and the hybrid, I know that you still have plenty of hand positions, ie on the grips, on the ends of the grips, on the end bars, - so dont understand how much different that can be ?
On Road bars, you've only got the tops, the Hoods, or the drops, - so if anyone is never going to use the drops, (me), then thats one less position ?

What a flat bar does give you, is much more control, and much more braking convenience, lets be honest, the position of the brake levers on drop bars is a pain in the @ss, and when riding 'on the hoods', you've got compromised leverage at best, perhaps enough for forseen stopping, but god help you in an emergency.
Normal levers on flat bars is always going to be hugely more convenient for stopping !

Aerodynamically, apart from flat bars being slightly wider perhaps, and unless you're hugely more 'upright' I cant see a whole lot of difference ?

I know I might be playing Devils Advocate here, on a 'Road Forum', and I know that most 'Roadies' wouldnt ever view me as a fellow 'True Roadie' on something like a Sirrus, but perhaps far more people ride 'Drop Bar' bikes out of wanting to conform than would actually admit ?

I'm genuinely curious as to whether any less performance would be the reality on a Sirrus Carbon over a Roubaix .......after all, I'm a 50+ 90kg+ newbie !!
;-)

dj58

I also come from mainly riding MTB's, my oldest bike is a steel framed rigid/hardtail with flat bars, bar ends and 1.5" road tyres, which I have ridden many miles on the road. I've only had my road bike a year and one of the things I really like about it is the drop handle bars and the variety of positions you can adopt.

I spend equal amounts of time in all the available positions, if you want to do any distance then I'd advise you to get the Roubaix you won't regret it.

JayKosta

With a road bike, you can ride easy in an upright position with your hands near the stem. Then if you want, you can go lower on the hoods or drops.

Either bike can be ridden hard and fast, so it depends on your personality and riding style.
Hybrids can appeal to people who don't want to look like 'racers' or 'racer wannabes'.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

gloomyandy

What makes you think that the brakes on a road bike are a problem? I doubt if you will have any problems with braking on the hoods or drops (especially if you get a road bike with disc brakes). You are more likely to hit problems with the small contact patch of road tyres than a lack of brake power (I can easily lock the brakes on my two drop bar bikes on the hoods and the drops). I also ride a flat bar bike that I use for touring (based on a 29er mountain bike frame, with rigid forks). I've covered a lot of miles on that bike and many hours a day, but even with bar ends you really don't have the range of positions available with drop bars.

Oh and nothing beats the feel of moving to the drops on a long curving downhill road, you feel very balanced on the bike and the aero position gives you free speed. I know you say that you won't ever ride on the drops, but I bet you will eventually!

DeVlaeminck

Most people use drops for good reasons - they allow different hand positions which suit different types of riding - narrow or wide, low or high - nobody is going to make you choose drops if you don't want them and if you want to labour under the illusion that many of us are using drops simply because everyone else does carry on.

zak3737

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Most people use drops for good reasons - they allow different hand positions which suit different types of riding - narrow or wide, low or high - nobody is going to make you choose drops if you don't want them and if you want to labour under the illusion that many of us are using drops simply because everyone else does carry on.

Crikey, take offence why dont you .....

N0bodyOfTheGoat

For ~30 years I loved dropped bar racers, but since my accident last December on the Tricross (rim brakes; rain; stationary vehicle hidden around sweeping bend), I feel so much more vulnerable on my Felt than on my Saracen (that sadly now appears to be a frame write-off with a seat tube crack)!

I'm really torn right now about what bike type to get, part of me likes the idea of a true hydraulic disc racer like the Pinnacle Arkose Single 2015 (which I could consider getting the old Saracen's Alfine hub built onto a 700C rim), or whether to find a bargain 26" frame and ask a bike shop (or two) how much they would charge me to transfer over all the Saracen's kit (including the forks and the bottom bracket if it is still decent).

jameses

Zak3737 wrote:

I know what you're saying, but as someone who's ridden a lot on 'normal' flat bars, on MTB's and the hybrid, I know that you still have plenty of hand positions, ie on the grips, on the ends of the grips, on the end bars, - so dont understand how much different that can be ?

Regardless of how far out you grip flat bars or bar ends, you essentially only have two hand positions, and that quickly leads to sore muscles if you're spending several hours in he saddle. This was my experience from touring on a well set up hybrid - despite the 'comfortable' upright position, by the end of each day I would be very sore across the shoulders and upper back

Zak3737 wrote:

On Road bars, you've only got the tops, the Hoods, or the drops, - so if anyone is never going to use the drops, (me), then thats one less position ?

Except there's more than just those three. Off the top of my head: tops, the bend at the end of the tops, hoods, hoods with forearms flat over the bends, front of the drops with forearms flat on the drops and middle/ends of the drops are all positions I use, and they all relieve stresses in different areas. And why are you so adament that you will never use the drops? If you've never ridden them before, you may not realise just how useful they are. Quite apart from the whole hand position thing, they give you so much more control when descending.

Zak3737 wrote:

What a flat bar does give you, is much more control [nope!], and much more braking convenience, lets be honest, the position of the brake levers on drop bars is a pain in the @ss, and when riding 'on the hoods', you've got compromised leverage at best, perhaps enough for forseen stopping, but god help you in an emergency.
Normal levers on flat bars is always going to be hugely more convenient for stopping !

Again, have you actually tried drop bars? I've never had an issue with 'braking convenience', nor heard of anyone else complain of it; the only place where you have to move to reach the levers (and it really only takes a fraction of a second) is from the tops, and you're only going to be on those when you're riding at a slower pace (usually uphill) anyway!

Zak3737 wrote:

Aerodynamically, apart from flat bars being slightly wider perhaps, and unless you're hugely more 'upright' I cant see a whole lot of difference ?

Granted, it doesn't make a huge difference. From the tops to the drops, i may get an extra 1mph. It's still 1mph of free speed, though!

Zak3737 wrote:

I know I might be playing Devils Advocate here, on a 'Road Forum', and I know that most 'Roadies' wouldnt ever view me as a fellow 'True Roadie' on something like a Sirrus, but perhaps far more people ride 'Drop Bar' bikes out of wanting to conform than would actually admit ?

Again, that's a very sweeping statement and I have no idea of the truth of it. I would like to think it's not the case. As for 'roadies' not viewing you as a 'true roadie', most of us are just glad to see more peope out on bikes and don't give a toss what they're riding; the 5% of pretentious arseholes that do care are best to ignore anyhow!

Zak3737 wrote:

I'm genuinely curious as to whether any less performance would be the reality on a Sirrus Carbon over a Roubaix .......after all, I'm a 50+ 90kg+ newbie !!
;-)

From personal experience, I've gone from struggling to keep up 15 mph over a 60 mile sportive while intermittently drafting 'true roadies' (none of whom had any issue with me not being on a road bike, btw) on my hybrid, to last weekend when I managed a solo 130 miles at a 17.5mph average. The biggest reason for my improvement? Because I enjoy riding my road bike so much more than I ever did my hybrid, so I'm encouraged to get out and ride more!

Just get the damn Roubaix!

apreading

Just to even up the score a bit, I rode a 120 mile sportive last month on a Boardman Hybrid and generally kept up (some were faster but many slowet than me). In the last third of the ride I was overtaking many people on drop bar bikes who were struggling with fatigue and discomfort and I felt fresh as anything at the end. With bar ends I had plenty of positions and simply by bending my elbows and tucking down I can get as low as I would be on drops.

Those that say they ride 40% of their time on the drops down mirror what most have said in the past - most seem to ride at least 70-80% of their time on the hoods, which is a compromised position at best in terms of gear changes and brake force.

I keep thinking about having another go with a drop bar bike but always come back to "why?" Just not for me, but then each to their own.

I do get annoyed with people who say they were told to go for drop bars instead and it was the best move they ever made - how do you know, as you didnt try the alternative?

zak3737

Interesting !

I'm certainly not trying to be controversial on a 'Road Bike' Forum or anything, and seriously tempted with a Roubaix, as I'm convinced its the 'Road Bike' for me.......if I stick to the Road Bike.

But when you look at the 2015 Sirrus's, with full Carbon frame, Aero Disc wheels, 105 Groupset etc etc.....its for all intents & purposes an out & out Road bike anyway, albeit with Flat Bars.

And there's no way anyone will convince me that unless you are 'on the drop bars', with your hands covering your brake levers, that you'll EVER have the brake leverage that you'd get riding a flat bar. Period.
From 'on the hoods' even, at best you might have 60% braking energy/leverage, but nowhere near the feel or pressure that you would on a standard bar grip.
I know - I may be new back to road cycling, and so have had to learn the new technique required to slow on a road bike. Thankfully, yet, I havent needed to stop quickly. It does concern me slightly what will happen if/when I do.

We may have a high number of serious Roadie's on here, and for you, I'm sure you didnt feel 'pressured' to conform and accept Drop Bars are simply 'needed' on a road bike, but I think there will be many that have come back to cycling, in its current resurgence, that have.

And as far as 'control' - there's no comparison, you dont need to be einstein to realise that, and frankly, anyone that would argue against that is deluded !

All that said, I may yet get the Roubaix, and become a fully fledged proper Roadie convert

imposter2.0

No offence fella - but you seem like you have a lot to learn about drop bar road bikes. If the 'control' thing still bothers you, just google a few clips of Sven Nys, John Tomac (who famously rode an MTB with drop bars), or even Martyn Ashton - then come back and tell us that drop bars don't give you enough control.

Your views on braking while on the hoods are nonsense - and it sounds like a view based completely on misconception rather than experience.

DeVlaeminck

Zak3737 wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Most people use drops for good reasons - they allow different hand positions which suit different types of riding - narrow or wide, low or high - nobody is going to make you choose drops if you don't want them and if you want to labour under the illusion that many of us are using drops simply because everyone else does carry on.

Crikey, take offence why dont you .....

Well you did say that nobody was going to convince you that you were wrong about something you are wrong about so why do you expect people to attempt to persuade you of your error ? If I got into MTBing I might have a few questions about why people do things certain ways but I wouldn't assume I had discovered some basic flaws in the thinking of people who have been riding MTBs for decades.

zak3737

Imposter wrote:

then come back and tell us that drop bars don't give you enough control.

Precisely. Enough.......to keep the bike in control. But Flat bars, without doubt, give you much more control.

"Your views on braking while on the hoods are nonsense - and it sounds like a view based completely on misconception rather than experience."

Misconception ?? Why ?? I have a road bike, which I've ridden now for a couple of months, so have enough 'experience' of using the brakes 'from the hoods', and I know its a compromised position to brake from.
Ive also ridden Montain Bikes for years, with Straight/Riser bars, and their is simply no comparison in the ability to brake, or pull the levers anywhere near as well.

If you are riding a Road Bike with Hydraulic Discs, I might concede that you'll possibly have enough modulation to close that gap, for if you're using clinchers, there's no comparison.

All said & done, I arent trying to knock Road Bikes and riders, I'm enjoying riding 'on the road' again,
but seriously, wonder whether I'd be just as quick on a Sirrus,.....thas' all.

frisbee

Why do you need so much brake leverage?

You can stop a motorbike from 200mph using just a couple of fingers and pretty much any mountain bike made in the last 20 years has short, 2 finger, brake levers.

jameses

apreading wrote:

Just to even up the score a bit, I rode a 120 mile sportive last month on a Boardman Hybrid and generally kept up (some were faster but many slowet than me). In the last third of the ride I was overtaking many people on drop bar bikes who were struggling with fatigue and discomfort and I felt fresh as anything at the end. With bar ends I had plenty of positions and simply by bending my elbows and tucking down I can get as low as I would be on drops.

I think that says a lot more about your fitness than the bike! Good job on the mileage there! Not arguing that bar ends don't give you more positions, just that the number is surpassed on drop bars. Also, the whole ' hands not covering the brakes' issue is equally applicable to bar ends as it is to riding on the tops. More so, in fact, as I find I tend to default to the bar ends at speed, when you're more likely to need rapid braking.

apreading wrote:

Those that say they ride 40% of their time on the drops down mirror what most have said in the past - most seem to ride at least 70-80% of their time on the hoods, which is a compromised position at best in terms of gear changes and brake force.

I was only speaking for myself, not anyone else. Personally, I also have no trouble with braking force or changing gears from the hoods. Pretty sure they're designed so there isn't that compromise.

apreading wrote:

I keep thinking about having another go with a drop bar bike but always come back to "why?" Just not for me, but then each to their own.

Fair enough. At least you didn't start a thread just to ignore the advice and experience of others!

apreading wrote:

I do get annoyed with people who say they were told to go for drop bars instead and it was the best move they ever made - how do you know, as you didnt try the alternative?

Also a fair point. See subsequent posts by the OP :roll: .

jameses

Zak3737 wrote:

But when you look at the 2015 Sirrus's, with full Carbon frame, Aero Disc wheels, 105 Groupset etc etc.....its for all intents & purposes an out & out Road bike anyway, albeit with Flat Bars.

In case it wasn't clear from my previous posts, I have ridden a hybrid for many years. It serves it's purpose, which (for me) is a day to day, ride about town, commute to work, heavy load carrier. It does these things very well. What it doesn't do so well is function as a road bike. That's why I also have a road bike.

You're absolutely right in saying the Sirrus looks like a great bike. It is essentially a Roubaix, with a few modifications to make it more suited to the all round riding that hybrids do so well. Those modifications, however, mean it is less suited to the kind of riding most of us enjoy as roadies.

Zak3737 wrote:

And there's no way anyone will convince me that unless you are 'on the drop bars', with your hands covering your brake levers, that you'll EVER have the brake leverage that you'd get riding a flat bar. Period.
From 'on the hoods' even, at best you might have 60% braking energy/leverage, but nowhere near the feel or pressure that you would on a standard bar grip.

So you've just made up your mind, and nothing anyone here says, not even those of us with experience of both types of bike/bars, can change your mind. Forgive me, but why the f*** did you even ask the question in the first place then?

Zak3737 wrote:

And as far as 'control' - there's no comparison, you dont need to be einstein to realise that, and frankly, anyone that would argue against that is deluded !

And now the insults, despite our efforts to help inform your choice. Really know how to win friends, dont you?

Just buy the f*cking Sirrus.

apreading

To be honest, I think Zak is right that in terms of the physics, wider bars will have more turning leverage and flat bars with your hands covering the levers will have more leverage than the hoods. In the drops, the leverage on the levers themselves should be the same though, and yes - either is better than the leverage I get on the brakes while on my bar ends!

I think is it simple physics that hydraulic disc brakes will give waaayyy better stopping power in the dry and waaaaaayyyy better in the wet.

However, I think all of this is also missing the point of road bikes. Road cycling isnt about hard braking - its more about minimising the braking you do to conserve forward momentum. This is very different to mountain biking where hard stops and locking wheels is part of the purpose. That doesnt mean that better stopping power isnt safer on the roads but that isnt what motivates the cyclist and routes are generally chosen to avoid situations where this might be an issue.

The argument is much more relevant to commuting through traffic though - where maneuverability and stopping power carry much more weight.

Omar Little

The "compromised" braking you get on the hoods (which is still plenty) is going to be a hell of alot better than the braking you get using bar ends on a hybrid.

charlie_potatoes

Zak3737 wrote:

The new 2015 Sirris range is mighty impressive, with the top of the range, the 'Expert Carbon Disc', as well as a full Carbon Frame and Zertz inserts, is also equipped with 105 gears etc, Hydraulic Discs, etc etc......very very nice indeed.

£1600 :shock: :shock: :shock:

The only benefit I can see is that you don't need to wear a helmet with the Sirrus.

zak3737

Time to finish this thread I think, I wasnt out to cause a ruck, just debate the topic !

Enjoy your Sunday rides fella's, whatever you're riding !

thegibdog

In my experience a road bike with drops offers far greater control than a hybrid on 40mph+ descents.

apreading

thegibdog wrote:

In my experience a road bike with drops offers far greater control than a hybrid on 40mph+ descents.

Without wanting to re-ignite the arguments, I am genuinely interested to know how/why?

Is it because of weight distribution? Because I can vary that to suit on my hybrid.
Is it because you are lower? Because I can get just as low on my hybrid.
Is it because the bars are narrower? That would cause higher angle of wheel turn for given movement of your arms, which is normally interpreted as less stability.

Or is it because in your experience of hybrids, you didnt have one which was comparable to a road bike just with flat bars?

I am constantly debating a drop bar disc road bike in the future, and when I can get something like the Roubaix or Domane with the new 685 hydraulic brakes, will have to give it serious consideration - but I still cant come up with a reason why I would not be happier with the flat bars which I generally prefer.

thegibdog

apreading wrote:

thegibdog wrote:

In my experience a road bike with drops offers far greater control than a hybrid on 40mph+ descents.

Without wanting to re-ignite the arguments, I am genuinely interested to know how/why?

Is it because of weight distribution? Because I can vary that to suit on my hybrid.
Is it because you are lower? Because I can get just as low on my hybrid.
Is it because the bars are narrower? That would cause higher angle of wheel turn for given movement of your arms, which is normally interpreted as less stability.

Or is it because in your experience of hybrids, you didnt have one which was comparable to a road bike just with flat bars?

I am constantly debating a drop bar disc road bike in the future, and when I can get something like the Roubaix or Domane with the new 685 hydraulic brakes, will have to give it serious consideration - but I still cant come up with a reason why I would not be happier with the flat bars which I generally prefer.

Being on the drops on a road bike gives you a secure hand position whilst having access to the brakes. On a flat barred bike being on the bar ends would give the best position for handling at speed but wouldn't give easy access to the brakes, whilst covering the brakes wouldn't be great for handling. Neither hand position would be as secure as being on the drops.

apreading

On fast descents, I always have my hands on the normal grips, covering the brakes. It feels like a very secure hand position and by bending my elbows I can be just as low (even chin touching the bars if I really wanted!). Why is this position not great for handling?

Maybe I am the exception and this is just because I have a really strong core and arms that I am able to do this, I dont know, but I dont feel disadvantaged.

Having said that, I am a bit of a chicken on the downhills but I am fairly sure that is just because my logical mind tells me how dangerous it would be if I hit a pothole or because I cant see what is around a bend up ahead.

I do know that on a recent tour of Tuscany, I was always in the front (by some margin) on the uphills and flat but always at the back (by some margin) on the downhills. In my mind this was mainly because of the hairpin bends that we couldnt see around and not helped on the first few days because my front brake pads got glazed or contaminated and kept overheating (fitted new pads mid-week which sorted this).

Maybe I would have had more confidence with drops, but I can reason out why this would be the case...?

thegibdog

apreading wrote:

Maybe I would have had more confidence with drops, but I can reason out why this would be the case...?

As mentioned, your hands are in a much more secure position on the drops - you're less likely to lose your grip on the bars when you encounter bumps or potholes. Being on the drops also gives you a naturally better position on the bike and lowers your centre of gravity. Whilst you can do this with straight bars by getting low on the bike the way you're supporting your weight through your arms can have adverse effects on handling. It sounds like you need to try out a road bike to appreciate the benefits, you might find that your bike is a bigger factor in your slow descending than you realise.

apreading

Losing my grip is not an issue - my hands couldnt be more secure.

I can get in exactly the same position on the bike other than my elbows are bent at a sharper angle than they would be in drops. Centre of gravity is just as low. And it doesnt cause any discomfort or strain or feel unstable as a result - I am quite happy in that position on the flat or on fast descents where I can see the road and traffic ahead.

I think you are right though, I do need to run another test. When I rode drop bars before, I wasnt at my current level but what puts me off is/was that I hated riding on the hoods and the brakes were poor, particularly in the wet. The issue of brakes is in the process of being solved, taking one of those things out of the equation, but probably the less important of the two. I know it is herecy, but I would actually be happier on a bike with 'suicide' levers and when I was a teenager that is where I spent most of my time! It is also possible that the ergonomics of hoods has improved and I would be happier with them now than in the past.

As I said, I am still waiting for the right bike to arrive for me - would happily spend alot of money on a Domane with hydraulic discs IF it also had mounts for mudguards and rack and IF I could get happier with the hoods.

Thing is, I have put alot of analysis into it and really dont feel like flat bars are holding me back at all - other than that they dont make really light and comfortable (expensive) Roubaix/Domane equivalent with flat bars.

I still hold to the assertion that unless you are at a very high level where marginal aero gains are important, you will not be disadvantaged by a road bike with flat bars (as opposed to a hybrid which is a very broad spectrum). Its merely a case of what feels best to you - almost like any other factor in bike fit, as much as the other aspects of geometry etc.