Vuelta 2014 Stage 20 *SPOILERS*

frenchfighter

Top 5 on stage same as top 5 in GC. Massive congratulations to Contador for taking his 8th
Grand Tour (barring catastrophe tomorrow). Never ever wavered in support for this dream rider.

RichN95 wrote:

Contador has this under control. But if he steals the stage we should campaign for him to be dropped from Frenchie's Men.

Kind of agree. I mean it is the right thing to do tactically but given Contador's apparent ease and history of bravery I was surprised he was taking it defensively. I guess with only a 1min buffer though, you can't really afford to be brave and blow and lose all just for pride's sake. Not too much gained drafting when it is that steep though.

I respect Froome trying to the end and he sure is a level above the rest. What would be interesting is to see is some analysis of the Vuelta mountain rides compared to other GTs when he was firing on all cyclinders. That being said, he just broke his wrist so his legs and aerobic system are not affected at all whereas Contador had much more time off the bike and a performance impairment.

Nice pat on the back and handshake from Froome to Contador.

hammerite wrote:

Performance of the race? Guardia Civil for me. Did a great job of stopping the fans harming the race over the last 3 weeks.

They seem to be more hand's on that others which is good.

Rick Chasey wrote:

So who's a better climber?

Pinot or Aru?

Aru I'd say . Boy is going to be racking the GTs.

viewtopic.php?f=40002&t=12636081&p=17762029&hilit=aru#p17762029
(note that Pinot also won that race!)

frenchfighter wrote:

I wonder where Samu is relative to Martin. Only real chance of a change

Samu and Martin exchange places. Navvaro moves into 9th, nice.



Total undisputed, certified, heavyweight true champion and stage race rider of his generation.

rick_chasey

Mm.

Do like Aru.

RichN95.

The organisers couldn't be bothered to wait for Degenkolb to finish, so they just presented the green jersey to Barguil instead.

milton50

So I make that 2-1 to Contador in the head-to-head GT stakes? Still don't think we have seen them race against each other when both are in top condition.

calvjones wrote:

Suspect we'll see a mirror image of these MTFs in the Tour next year.

You mean Froome on Contador's wheel and then taking the stage? It's certainly possible that Contador will be the one having to take time assuming there's at least one ITT. Depends on the route I suppose but I can see Quintana beating both.

dolan_driver

frenchfighter wrote:

Massive congratulations to Contador for taking his 8th Grand Tour (barring catastrophe tomorrow).

He did not win the Tour de France in 2010 and he did not win the 2011 Giro D'Italia. Ergo, this Vuelta victory makes it six Grand Tour victories for AC. For fans of both Contador and clean cycling, these are undeniable facts. Sad but true.

DD.

frenchfighter

Dolan Driver wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

Massive congratulations to Contador for taking his 8th Grand Tour (barring catastrophe tomorrow).

He did not win the Tour de France in 2010 and he did not win the 2011 Giro D'Italia. Ergo, this Vuelta victory makes it six Grand Tour victories for AC. For fans of both Contador and clean cycling, these are undeniable facts. Sad but true.

DD.

He won them and the 2nd place in those GTs also know he won them (both quoted as saying so). There is a marginal call to discount the 2010 Tour (if for some reason you think 50 picograms is performance enhancing) but he did not test positive for anything other than pure talent and dominance at the 2011 Giro, he just had it retrospectively taken from him. If he is firing same as this year I can see him reaching double figures by end of next year.

blazing_saddles

Please, do we have to visit this he won 6, no he won, 8, no he won 6 argument again?
It's all history.

Kind of agree with Frenchie and Rich. While Contador was perfectly entitled to jump away and pinch the stage, but never gave even a solitary pull on the front. So, it was a bit of a cheap move; a bit unworthy of the champion elect.
Unlike last week, he didn't need to take any more time.

ugo.santalucia

Rick Chasey wrote:

Mm.

Do like Aru.

Me too.... as an Italian, it's nice to see there is a legacy when Nibali will eventually fade. Just a couple of years ago I was discussing on an Italian cycling forum of the total lack of any inspiring rider and now there are a few to look forward to... still waiting for a man for the classics

calvjones

Milton50 wrote:

So I make that 2-1 to Contador in the head-to-head GT stakes? Still don't think we have seen them race against each other when both are in top condition.

calvjones wrote:

Suspect we'll see a mirror image of these MTFs in the Tour next year.

You mean Froome on Contador's wheel and then taking the stage? It's certainly possible that Contador will be the one having to take time assuming there's at least one ITT. Depends on the route I suppose but I can see Quintana beating both.

Yep. I suspect neither can drop the other in top form (by much), so will come down to TT and TTT?

Wonder what Oleg/Riis have done to rejuvenate Bertie? he looked washed up in '13.

ugo.santalucia

frenchfighter wrote:

but he did not test positive for anything other than pure talent and dominance at the 2011 Giro, he just had it retrospectively taken from him. If he is firing same as this year I can see him reaching double figures by end of next year.

I think it was either that or a ban starting after the Giro 2011... on balance better to drop the title and being able to do your job...

RichN95.

ugo.santalucia wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

but he did not test positive for anything other than pure talent and dominance at the 2011 Giro, he just had it retrospectively taken from him. If he is firing same as this year I can see him reaching double figures by end of next year.

I think it was either that or a ban starting after the Giro 2011... on balance better to drop the title and being able to do your job...

If he hadn't had the Giro taken off him by backdating he wouldn't have started the 2012 Vuelta. So he can have one or the other, not both. (Personally I don't think bans should be backdated).

kingstonian

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Please, do we have to visit this he won 6, no he won, 8, no he won 6 argument again?
It's all history.

Kind of agree with Frenchie and Rich. While Contador was perfectly entitled to jump away and pinch the stage, but never gave even a solitary pull on the front. So, it was a bit of a cheap move; a bit unworthy of the champion elect.
Unlike last week, he didn't need to take any more time.

Yep, it was a cheap shot really. I would have expected him to either sit on his wheel and let Froome win the stage, or take turns at the front to see if he could blow him away.

But overall he has performed outstandingly

blazing_saddles

Idiot throws a branch into Froome's chest:

https://vine.co/v/OaJYj6T0lrE

frenchfighter

calvjones wrote:

Wonder what Oleg/Riis have done to rejuvenate Bertie? he looked washed up in '13.

It's pretty well documented as he has been asked the question multiple times. Essentially 2013 was an off-year (by his, but not other rider's standards) and this year he went back to a program that has worked in the past and been able to concentrate properly on his training. Being out for most of 2012 doesn't help you either.

frenchfighter

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Idiot throws a branch into Froome's chest:

https://vine.co/v/OaJYj6T0lrE

Yeah that's a pretty low grade move.

mm1

"Back on the programme" - exellent.

frenchfighter

RichN95 wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

but he did not test positive for anything other than pure talent and dominance at the 2011 Giro, he just had it retrospectively taken from him. If he is firing same as this year I can see him reaching double figures by end of next year.

I think it was either that or a ban starting after the Giro 2011... on balance better to drop the title and being able to do your job...

If he hadn't had the Giro taken off him by backdating he wouldn't have started the 2012 Vuelta. So he can have one or the other, not both. (Personally I don't think bans should be backdated).

But it is an argument about whether he physically won the GTs he entered and cleanly, rather than whether he should have been at the start line in the first place. One is a measure of someone's talent the other most certainly is not. I mean if you want to follow those lines of thought then you could say he was denied the chance (high) of taking another Tour win when his team was not allowed to start in 2008 and he may have even scored the triple GT win which would have been brilliant.

type:epyt

Just as a few days ago, a racers win (Gerrans) rather than a champions win (Cancellara). Both equally laudable but reduces the sporting spectacle.

Anyone else missing Horner's grit, drive and grin (race face) from last year?

type:epyt

FWIW, I count AC's Giro as a win but not the TdF he tested positive on, rules rule etc.

Pross

frenchfighter wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

but he did not test positive for anything other than pure talent and dominance at the 2011 Giro, he just had it retrospectively taken from him. If he is firing same as this year I can see him reaching double figures by end of next year.

I think it was either that or a ban starting after the Giro 2011... on balance better to drop the title and being able to do your job...

If he hadn't had the Giro taken off him by backdating he wouldn't have started the 2012 Vuelta. So he can have one or the other, not both. (Personally I don't think bans should be backdated).

But it is an argument about whether he physically won the GTs he entered and cleanly, rather than whether he should have been at the start line in the first place. One is a measure of someone's talent the other most certainly is not. I mean if you want to follow those lines of thought then you could say he was denied the chance (high) of taking another Tour win when his team was not allowed to start in 2008 and he may have even scored the triple GT win which would have been brilliant.

Genuine question. Do you still credit LA with 7 Tour wins too? After all he also physically won them.

type:epyt

^ I do, same logic as with AC ... If you win and don't test + (or ask 2/3 of the peleton to ride slow enough to keep you in the race) then you're the winner. It's just telly in the end and in most cases what you see is what you get.

frenchfighter

Pross wrote:

Genuine question. Do you still credit LA with 7 Tour wins too? After all he also physically won them.

In a way yes I do because they were all at it. But the difference when directly compared to Contador is that there were clear performance enhancements which is not the case with Contador.

calvjones

frenchfighter wrote:

calvjones wrote:

Wonder what Oleg/Riis have done to rejuvenate Bertie? he looked washed up in '13.

It's pretty well documented as he has been asked the question multiple times. Essentially 2013 was an off-year (by his, but not other rider's standards) and this year he went back to a program that has worked in the past and been able to concentrate properly on his training. Being out for most of 2012 doesn't help you either.

OK. I thought i'd seen something about training more scientifically but maybe not

pinno

type:epyt wrote:

^ I do, same logic as with AC ... If you win and don't test + (or ask 2/3 of the peloton to ride slow enough to keep you in the race) then you're the winner. It's just telly in the end and in most cases what you see is what you get.

It's just telly is it? Is it not a competition between men in what is arguably the toughest sport in the world at the peak of their powers? Should it not be a fair competition between the best in the sport with no advantage gained by nefarious purpose? Do all cyclists when they start their career say to them selves "If I get good at this, i'll get on the telly?"
All those hours of training, sacrifice, pain, travel - just to get on the telly?
It may be that it is just something to watch and it may be something that is only brought to us by virtue of the commercial interests of the sport but there are much easier ways to get on the telly and I honestly do not think that the protagonists involved do it to get on the telly. If you think that this is just telly, why bother with cycling as a spectacle, I mean, why not watch the x factor or Eastenders, if it's 'just telly'?

Back on topic. It is such a shame Froome and Contador did not finish the TdF. I really really hope that they all get to start the TdF next year in top condition. Imagine - Contador, Nibali, Froome and Quintana all in the mix.

frenchfighter

calvjones wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

calvjones wrote:

Wonder what Oleg/Riis have done to rejuvenate Bertie? he looked washed up in '13.

It's pretty well documented as he has been asked the question multiple times. Essentially 2013 was an off-year (by his, but not other rider's standards) and this year he went back to a program that has worked in the past and been able to concentrate properly on his training. Being out for most of 2012 doesn't help you either.

OK. I thought i'd seen something about training more scientifically but maybe not

Well yeah now you come to mention it, I think that could have a part - apparently he hardly ever trained at altitude before and has been doing it this year. He also has an ex-Sky guy helping out.

type:epyt

pinarello001 wrote:

type:epyt wrote:

^ I do, same logic as with AC ... If you win and don't test + (or ask 2/3 of the peloton to ride slow enough to keep you in the race) then you're the winner. It's just telly in the end and in most cases what you see is what you get.

It's just telly is it? Is it not a competition between men in what is arguably the toughest sport in the world at the peak of their powers? Should it not be a fair competition between the best in the sport with no advantage gained by nefarious purpose? Do all cyclists when they start their career say to them selves "If I get good at this, i'll get on the telly?"
All those hours of training, sacrifice, pain, travel - just to get on the telly?
It may be that it is just something to watch and it may be something that is only brought to us by virtue of the commercial interests of the sport but there are much easier ways to get on the telly and I honestly do not think that the protagonists involved do it to get on the telly. If you think that this is just telly, why bother with cycling as a spectacle, I mean, why not watch the x factor or Eastenders, if it's 'just telly'?

Back on topic. It is such a shame Froome and Contador did not finish the TdF. I really really hope that they all get to start the TdF next year in top condition. Imagine - Contador, Nibali, Froome and Quintana all in the mix.

Realising it's just telly reminds me not to get carried away with polemic.

Spectator sport is just entertainment unless you are directly/indirectly involved. Cycling gives you a modicum of understanding of the effort, skill etc. involved in tackling the parcours but after that it's all just perception and conjecture.

Paul 8v

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Idiot throws a branch into Froome's chest:

https://vine.co/v/OaJYj6T0lrE

Awful that someone should have to put up with something like that

joelsim

calvjones wrote:

Milton50 wrote:

So I make that 2-1 to Contador in the head-to-head GT stakes? Still don't think we have seen them race against each other when both are in top condition.

calvjones wrote:

Suspect we'll see a mirror image of these MTFs in the Tour next year.

You mean Froome on Contador's wheel and then taking the stage? It's certainly possible that Contador will be the one having to take time assuming there's at least one ITT. Depends on the route I suppose but I can see Quintana beating both.

Yep. I suspect neither can drop the other in top form (by much), so will come down to TT and TTT?

Wonder what Oleg/Riis have done to rejuvenate Bertie? he looked washed up in '13.

+1. Amazing that his performances have improved hugely since his contract looked in jeopardy last year. Perhaps he realised, but he wasn't even blowing at the summit today.

rick_chasey

Joelsim wrote:

+1. Amazing that his performances have improved hugely since his contract looked in jeopardy last year. Perhaps he realised, but he wasn't even blowing at the summit today.

Yes he was.

That kind of chat belongs in the clinic.

type:epyt

^ Contador was all over his bike like a monkey trying to open a vaseline covered banana and as a result survived to the win. He barely beat Froome who looked worse crossing the the line today than he did when he abandoned the Tour.