To what extent does doping permeate the British scene?

Pross

Rick Chasey wrote:

Forget the winning - I bet riding on EPO feels f*cking great.

I prefer the supposed benefits of HGH myself. I'd like to just find out what it is like though.

chrisaonabike

I know that if they invent an anti-ageing drug I'll be shovelling it down my neck by the bucketload, and the youngsters that object to me going up Box Hill faster than they are can basically swivel.

RichN95.

ChrisAOnABike wrote:

I know that if they invent an anti-ageing drug I'll be shovelling it down my neck by the bucketload, and the youngsters that object to me going up Box Hill faster than they are can basically swivel.

As an off-topic aside, someone clever (I think it was David Epstein) recently put forward a theory that in the future medical science, particularly gene technology, would be able to fix all sorts of human weaknesses as a matter of routine, but that these would be banned in sport and therefore pro sportsmen would actually be relatively the 'weakest' rather than the 'strongest' in society

newton98

I appreciate the low post-count looks suspect, I lurk here a lot and have done for some time. I don't post if I have nothing to contribute. This thread was in no way meant to be trolling. If the question is a null point as some have you have pointed out then fair enough.

Thanks to those who replied, I appreciate the money argument, but then frankly I know many of who spend beyond their abilities in some cases many £k. I've no idea what internet sourced drugs cost but I'd imagine a Pinarello's worth would make someone faster.

To whoever pointed out that we will never know, that's a good point. I guess the only time is when someone from the domestic pro ranks with no blood passport or routine sophisticated testing is elevated to the WT level and is then subject to WT testing standards, a bit like JTL.

It sounds like some of the you have first hand experience of the top level of domestic racing so thanks for sharing your experiences. It sounds like it's not commonplace which is reassuring.

RichN95.

I have no knowledge of the domestic scene what I would say this. In all cycling it is, from a team point of view, highly advantageous to have clean cycling. The costs are cut and they risk of scandal is eliminated.

Now in British doemstic cycling there are only about half a dozen main teams - it's a small pool and they all know each other pretty well, so it is quite easy to create a clean environment by just realising it is advantageous to all and largely self-policing . It doesn't stop the odd rogue individual of course, but it can make it a rarity.

mfin

ChrisAOnABike wrote:

I know that if they invent an anti-ageing drug I'll be shovelling it down my neck by the bucketload, and the youngsters that object to me going up Box Hill faster than they are can basically swivel.

You should look into HGH, used a lot by hollywood types for it's reversing of ageing type effects as well as by sports people.

BenderRodriguez

RichN95 wrote:

I have no knowledge of the domestic scene what I would say this. In all cycling it is, from a team point of view, highly advantageous to have clean cycling. The costs are cut and they risk of scandal is eliminated.

Now in British doemstic cycling there are only about half a dozen main teams - it's a small pool and they all know each other pretty well, so it is quite easy to create a clean environment by just realising it is advantageous to all and largely self-policing . It doesn't stop the odd rogue individual of course, but it can make it a rarity.

I have some experience of the domestic scene, and from what I saw there was, and probably still is, doping even at the 2nd and even 3rd cat levels, generally the use of stimulants.

As to your 'small pool' theory. It was much the same situation with the old British 'Pro' scene, and yet that didn't stop riders from doping. I know for a fact that some UK pros from back then doped to the gills in events like the Kellogg's criteriums.

little ring needed

newton98 wrote:

........It sounds like some of the you have first hand experience of the top level of domestic racing so thanks for sharing your experiences. It sounds like it's not commonplace which is reassuring.

Posters have responded in line with their experiences. Sadly, my own experiences are such that whilst I think it is not commonplace, at the top level - the JTL - dope to achieve contract story is not a rarity, (and having once crossed that river in north Italy - there is no going back).

There are enough who will not be deterred by the JTL saga, but rather highly encouraged by it. He had gone from part time in the bike shop to £400k per year; he just didn't need to do all that AND try and get on the podium at the Worlds all in the same year and by now, he would be smiling at us from the front of the magazine covers.

RichN95.

BenderRodriguez wrote:

As to your 'small pool' theory. It was much the same situation with the old British 'Pro' scene, and yet that didn't stop riders from doping. I know for a fact that some UK pros from back then doped to the gills in events like the Kellogg's criteriums.

That was a long time ago with different drugs and different attitudes.

mfin

BenderRodriguez wrote:

I have some experience of the domestic scene, and from what I saw there was, and probably still is, doping even at the 2nd and even 3rd cat levels, generally the use of stimulants.

So you think stimulants are commonly used at 3rd cat? Which stimulants exactly?

thegreatdivide

Powerbar Sport Shots or the demon Clif Double Espresso. Evil.

jimmythecuckoo

Ventolin.

chrisaonabike

RichN95 wrote:

ChrisAOnABike wrote:

I know that if they invent an anti-ageing drug I'll be shovelling it down my neck by the bucketload, and the youngsters that object to me going up Box Hill faster than they are can basically swivel.

As an off-topic aside, someone clever (I think it was David Epstein) recently put forward a theory that in the future medical science, particularly gene technology, would be able to fix all sorts of human weaknesses as a matter of routine, but that these would be banned in sport and therefore pro sportsmen would actually be relatively the 'weakest' rather than the 'strongest' in society

I think this is way too simplistic.

The notion that sportsmen will be happy to age and deteriorate while the rest of us don't need to seems a bit unlikely, but the whole idea of professional sports would be meaningless if it ceased to be aspirational. Why would I watch Usain Bolt if I can run faster than he can in a few years time. Or watch the Tour if I can get up Ventoux quicker than they can on my recently replaced bionic legs?

No, the whole concept of cheating will have to be completely redefined, and those of us that are still alive will look back at biological passports, blood tests and the like as an incomplete, clumsy solution to a trivial problem.

Still, if we can solve the population problem that will also get a whole lot worse, sorting out cheating in sports will probably also become tractable.

alihisgreat

mfin wrote:

BenderRodriguez wrote:

I have some experience of the domestic scene, and from what I saw there was, and probably still is, doping even at the 2nd and even 3rd cat levels, generally the use of stimulants.

So you think stimulants are commonly used at 3rd cat? Which stimulants exactly?

Caffeine??

RichN95.

ChrisAOnABike wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

As an off-topic aside, someone clever (I think it was David Epstein) recently put forward a theory that in the future medical science, particularly gene technology, would be able to fix all sorts of human weaknesses as a matter of routine, but that these would be banned in sport and therefore pro sportsmen would actually be relatively the 'weakest' rather than the 'strongest' in society

I think this is way too simplistic.

The notion that sportsmen will be happy to age and deteriorate while the rest of us don't need to seems a bit unlikely, but the whole idea of professional sports would be meaningless if it ceased to be aspirational. Why would I watch Usain Bolt if I can run faster than he can in a few years time. Or watch the Tour if I can get up Ventoux quicker than they can on my recently replaced bionic legs?

No, the whole concept of cheating will have to be completely redefined, and those of us that are still alive will look back at biological passports, blood tests and the like as an incomplete, clumsy solution to a trivial problem.

Still, if we can solve the population problem that will also get a whole lot worse, sorting out cheating in sports will probably also become tractable.

It was simplistic - it was only a couple of paragraphs long. It was more a comment, as you say, about the very definition of what is doping. We already have that with TUEs for example.

rick_chasey

jimmythecuckoo wrote:

Ventolin.

deejay

Is this discussion a world wide scene or just a british scene ??

RichN95.

deejay wrote:

Is this discussion a world wide scene or just a british scene ??

British.

(But you know what we're like, conversations can sometimes drift into other areas)

joelsim

mfin wrote:

BenderRodriguez wrote:

I have some experience of the domestic scene, and from what I saw there was, and probably still is, doping even at the 2nd and even 3rd cat levels, generally the use of stimulants.

So you think stimulants are commonly used at 3rd cat? Which stimulants exactly?

Speed I would imagine. Cheap as chips.

BenderRodriguez

mfin wrote:

So you think stimulants are commonly used at 3rd cat? Which stimulants exactly?

At the 3rd cat level, from what I was told and saw, mixing 'Do Do' tables with caffeine was pretty widespread. The 'buzz' you get is apparently pretty impressive, way more than is to be had from caffeine alone. The ephedrine in 'Do Do' tables would also see a rider fail a dope test, if there were any. By the time riders have worked their way up to 1st cat the 'Do Do' and caffeine mix was pretty likely to have been replaced by amphetamines.

I should emphasise that, from what I heard, such abuse was far from universal, but I knew enough riders doing it to to come to the conclusion that it was not particularly rare either.

Looking back, it might be reasonable to say that such abuse was most likely to be indulged in by obsessive, 'professional 3rd cat' types. I can imagine that Dan Staite (the domestic UK rider who got busted for Epo use) probably had a similar mind-set.

The use of 'Do Do' tables and caffeine is also very common in other sports, both as a stimulant and as a way to boost the metabolism, so aiding weight loss. (The legendary ECA stack.) In body building it seems that the ECA stack is almost mandatory, both as a way to boost a work out and to shed weight prior to a competition.

ozzzyosborn206

Marcel Six is the first name that springs to mind and most of the domestic guys knew he was on something from the way he was training and racing........going to Spain for training camps in the lead up to Tour Series then winning sprints competition on his own when other teams were dedication the whole team to it. As has been said the UK domestic scene is probably fairly well self policed as probably is the world tour now from big improvements making getting away with the more hardcore drugs much more difficult as people will know the gains that are achievable clean.

--Darren--

mfin wrote:

BenderRodriguez wrote:

I have some experience of the domestic scene, and from what I saw there was, and probably still is, doping even at the 2nd and even 3rd cat levels, generally the use of stimulants.

So you think stimulants are commonly used at 3rd cat? Which stimulants exactly?

Seen quite a few riders with pro plus and do do pills at 2nd & 1st cat races - ECA stack, Ephedrine

JackPozzi

---

thegreatdivide

Rick Chasey wrote:

jimmythecuckoo wrote:

Ventolin.

Oh yes!

johnboy183

When you say Do Do tablets, you mean these( or similar)? http://www.boots.com/en/Do-Do-ChestEze- ... ts_865754/

alihisgreat

johnboy183 wrote:

When you say Do Do tablets, you mean these( or similar)? http://www.boots.com/en/Do-Do-ChestEze- ... ts_865754/

Why would you want to know?!

BenderRodriguez

johnboy183 wrote:

When you say Do Do tablets, you mean these( or similar)? http://www.boots.com/en/Do-Do-ChestEze- ... ts_865754/

Yup that's them. Their sale is restricted now, so you can only buy one box of 9 at a time, apparently because they can be used as a base for making pure amphetamine. (Both ephedrine and caffeine have a very similar chemical structure to amphetamine and they 'mutually potentiate' one another, so enhancing their amphetamine-like effect.)

I think that popping these is just one aspect of a wider culture in cycling that hold that performance enhancement involves popping pills and 'taking stuff' in general. Another example is the use of creatine. Some manufacturers even try to associate their products with the effect of taking 'heavy duty' doping agents such as insulin-like growth factor, as with the early marketing of Neovite. (With British Cycling playing along with them by allowing race, rider and team sponsorships, it's use being recommended by Nigel Mitchell, head of nutrition for British Cycling and Team Sky, etc.) Then there is the use of large amounts of bicarbonate, supposedly as a lactate 'buffer', mega-dose vitamins, sodium citrate, glycerol, etc. etc.

Ok, so some would argue that these don't constitute 'doping' because their use is not prohibited. However, the underlying psychology of their use is pretty much the same. What's more in some places the sale of commonly recommended products such as caffeine and creatine is prohibited or restricted. (You can't buy caffeine tables from a chemist in France, for example). I am sure that if, for some reason, Epo were taken off the prohibited list most cycling forums would have pages and pages of discussions about how to best use it!

johnboy183

ALIHISGREAT wrote:

johnboy183 wrote:

When you say Do Do tablets, you mean these( or similar)? http://www.boots.com/en/Do-Do-ChestEze- ... ts_865754/

Why would you want to know?!

Curiosity

Pross

ozzzyosborn206 wrote:

Marcel Six is the first name that springs to mind and most of the domestic guys knew he was on something from the way he was training and racing........going to Spain for training camps in the lead up to Tour Series then winning sprints competition on his own when other teams were dedication the whole team to it. As has been said the UK domestic scene is probably fairly well self policed as probably is the world tour now from big improvements making getting away with the more hardcore drugs much more difficult as people will know the gains that are achievable clean.

Yep, looks like another case of him getting shopped by the other teams. There were riders raising a few eyebrows in races I rode back in the 90s and sure enough the testers turned up at a local 1/2/3 race and nabbed one. The same seems to happen in rugby locally, there's people that everyone knows about and they soon get picked up - everyone knows everyone and soon someone talks.

Pross

The thing with saying UK riders are taking caffeine and ephedrine is that, whilst unethical and cheating in many people's eyes, ephedrine only has a restriction on higher concentrations and caffeine isn't banned so providing they keep the ephedrine level within limits they aren't breaking any rules.