To what extent does doping permeate the British scene?

newton98
newton98 Posts: 35
edited August 2014 in Pro race
In light of the recent news surrounding JTL it got me wondering about the lower ranks of British racing. I seem to be regularly reminded that doping is supposedly still found at the sharp end of Italian gran fondos and I think I'm right in thinking last years Tour of Turkey winner from the Pro Continental ranks was stripped of his first because of doping. With reduced testing outside of the world tour, does this suspicious activity cross over to elite amateur and junior pro levels in the UK? For example, are all tour series riders thought to be clean?
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Comments

  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,392
    I don't want to come over all frenchfighter but the fact that this is your second post makes me a tad nervous...

    How can we possibly know the answer to that. anything that follows can only be purest speculation. I think that the likelihood is that on the UK scene the risks, though very marginal, are too high and the rewards too small to be worth doping. However it takes minimal research to find examples of amateurs with literally nothing to gain from coming first or fiftieth who have doped so...?
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    Look at it this way, if i win the local crit where I live now I take home €670. If I win an E/1/2 in the CDNW league I get what? £50?
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • danlikesbikes
    danlikesbikes Posts: 3,898
    Umm might as well ask to what extend does class A drug use occur in the domestic scene, reason being that we will never know unless every rider is test regularly.

    If I'm reading you right (as your referencing the common but not necessarily correct belief that PED's are used in Italian rides) I don't feel there is as much common knowledge use of drugs on the Junior Circuit as we have a good feeder system into British cycling and those with talent are picked up quite easily but that's to say it does not happen.

    As for Tour riders my personal opinion is the same as that towards most pro tour riders that most are clean and some many not be and a small number are not and find themselves being caught out
    Pain hurts much less if its topped off with beating your mates to top of a climb.
  • Macaloon
    Macaloon Posts: 5,545
    Peak British scene was surely the Second Summer of Love, Manchester '89. It was absolutely f*cking brilliant. Then the brand ambassadors and anesthetists came to the party. You can guess the rest.

    the-hacienda-nightclub-manchester.jpg
    ...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.
  • lyn1
    lyn1 Posts: 261
    newton98 wrote:
    In light of the recent news surrounding JTL it got me wondering about the lower ranks of British racing. I seem to be regularly reminded that doping is supposedly still found at the sharp end of Italian gran fondos and I think I'm right in thinking last years Tour of Turkey winner from the Pro Continental ranks was stripped of his first because of doping. With reduced testing outside of the world tour, does this suspicious activity cross over to elite amateur and junior pro levels in the UK? For example, are all tour series riders thought to be clean?

    By way of clarification......the rider at Tour of Turkey was Continental level (Division 3) and therefore outside the Bio passport scheme which applies to Division 1 and 2 teams (World Tour & Pro Continental). He would only have been subject to some in-competition testing. What is meant by junior pro levels.....Continental (Div 3) or 16/17 year old non senior riders as Danlikesbikes has interpreted it?
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    Danlikesbikes wrote:
    Umm might as well ask to what extend does class A drug use occur in the domestic scene, reason being that we will never know unless every rider is test regularly.

    Does getting tested regularly make a difference?
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    Macaloon wrote:
    Peak British scene was surely the Second Summer of Love, Manchester '89. It was absolutely f*cking brilliant. Then the brand ambassadors and anesthetists came to the party. You can guess the rest.

    the-hacienda-nightclub-manchester.jpg

    Not entirely sure it was just Manchester.

    Or whether anything has changed since.
  • alihisgreat
    alihisgreat Posts: 3,872
    Joelsim wrote:
    Danlikesbikes wrote:
    Umm might as well ask to what extend does class A drug use occur in the domestic scene, reason being that we will never know unless every rider is test regularly.

    Does getting tested regularly make a difference?

    It means you have to have the sense to plan around when you know you'll be tested :roll:
  • mike6
    mike6 Posts: 1,199
    Another troll from the clinic?????
  • danlikesbikes
    danlikesbikes Posts: 3,898
    Joelsim wrote:
    Danlikesbikes wrote:
    Umm might as well ask to what extend does class A drug use occur in the domestic scene, reason being that we will never know unless every rider is test regularly.

    Does getting tested regularly make a difference?

    Yes, as if we didn't test we would be speculating, if we did (& I understand but am no expert but the tests for class a drugs is pretty reliable) test regularly we would have the results of every rider so could comment on how prevalent such drug use is.
    Pain hurts much less if its topped off with beating your mates to top of a climb.
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    ALIHISGREAT wrote:
    Joelsim wrote:
    Danlikesbikes wrote:
    Umm might as well ask to what extend does class A drug use occur in the domestic scene, reason being that we will never know unless every rider is test regularly.

    Does getting tested regularly make a difference?

    It means you have to have the sense to plan around when you know you'll be tested :roll:

    +1
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,740
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    Look at it this way, if i win the local crit where I live now I take home €670. If I win an E/1/2 in the CDNW league I get what? £50?


    This.

    More money, more problems.
    _
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    Look at it this way, if i win the local crit where I live now I take home €670. If I win an E/1/2 in the CDNW league I get what? £50?


    This.

    More money, more problems.

    The problem lies with paying a doctor who knows what he is doing. Possibly where JTL fell down, not enough money to do it cleverly.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,740
    momoneymoproblems.gif
    _
  • danlikesbikes
    danlikesbikes Posts: 3,898
    edited August 2014
    ALIHISGREAT wrote:
    Joelsim wrote:
    Danlikesbikes wrote:
    Umm might as well ask to what extend does class A drug use occur in the domestic scene, reason being that we will never know unless every rider is test regularly.

    Does getting tested regularly make a difference?

    It means you have to have the sense to plan around when you know you'll be tested :roll:

    Think your missing what I meant, just you might as well not ask as we will never know unless we have all the info then it wouldn't be speculation. Prob not a good example and wasn't relating it to people getting round testing just thought the question was a bit pointless in the first place
    Pain hurts much less if its topped off with beating your mates to top of a climb.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,392
    *innocently points out that this is joel-snark bait supreme*
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • BenderRodriguez
    BenderRodriguez Posts: 907
    edited August 2014
    Assuming that the OP is asking an honest question, in my experience the use of stimulants is fairly common, even at the lowest levels of domestic racing. One excellent time triallist I knew once told me how he always raced on a mix of 'Do Do' and caffeine tablets. which together act pretty much like amphetamine. I know that one rider who won my local divisional road race championships did so whilst using amphetamine. Another regular training partner of mine, in an attempt to transform himself into someone worthy of a pro contract, took amphetamine regularly in order to complete his daily mammoth training sessions, a strategy that eventually saw him collapse at the side of the road and being hospitalised.

    OK, those are just a few 'anecdotes', not a scientific study, and they happened quite a while ago, but they do show that stimulant abuse is not unheard of.

    I think that a major factor here is that cycling and being an obsessive go hand in hand, with many riders who are never going to be any better than an average second cat showing a huge amount of dedication to getting the best from themselves, at time taking things to almost comical levels. For example, many of the riders I used to race with would pretty much avoid all human contact that wasn't absolutely necessary in case they caught a cold which set their training back, even to the extent of not having a girlfriend! They also obsessively watched their diet, to the extent that in some of the cafes we used to use you actually had to ask for your toast to be buttered, as the staff got to the point where they assumed that cyclists only ate unbuttered toast! Add to that the huge amount of training that most of them did, and the way everything in their lives took second place to trying to win bike races, then it is perhaps no surprise that some were willing to give themselves a little bit of an extra edge by means of using stimulants. And of course, the chance of being tested in some 'chipper' road race or time trial was effectively zero.
    "an original thinker… the intellectual heir of Galileo and Einstein… suspicious of orthodoxy - any orthodoxy… He relishes all forms of ontological argument": jane90.
  • BenderRodriguez
    BenderRodriguez Posts: 907
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    momoneymoproblems.gif

    That was clearly drawn up by someone with no experience of the problems inherent in trying to make ends meet when on a low wage or benefits, and who thinks that an example of a 'problem' is trying to decide whether to buy a new BMW or a new Range Rover...
    "an original thinker… the intellectual heir of Galileo and Einstein… suspicious of orthodoxy - any orthodoxy… He relishes all forms of ontological argument": jane90.
  • takethehighroad
    takethehighroad Posts: 6,650
    big-mo-money.jpg

    This thread is pointless
  • thegreatdivide
    thegreatdivide Posts: 5,803
    Macaloon wrote:
    Peak British scene was surely the Second Summer of Love, Manchester '89. It was absolutely f*cking brilliant. Then the brand ambassadors and anesthetists came to the party. You can guess the rest.

    the-hacienda-nightclub-manchester.jpg

    Aceeeeeeeed!
  • thegreatdivide
    thegreatdivide Posts: 5,803
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    momoneymoproblems.gif

    I've got 99 of them.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 40,602
    BenderRodriguez wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    momoneymoproblems.gif

    That was clearly drawn up by someone with no experience of the problems inherent in trying to make ends meet when on a low wage or benefits, and who thinks that an example of a 'problem' is trying to decide whether to buy a new BMW or a new Range Rover...


    I think you're reading the graph wrong. It's saying that the more money is at stake the more problems you get, not the more money you have the more problems you have.

    Basically, is it worth spending thousands of pounds a year on EPO to win a race where the top prize is a few hundred? The assumption in the JTL case is that it was to earn a lucrative contract with a top pro team. Then you get anomalies like Dan Staite - maybe he was hoping for similar but it seems highly unlikely and unlike JTL his performances did enough to trigger suspicion amongst his peers that would have prevented them taking the risk. Probably just a vanity thing with some people but an expensive one!
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,740
    thegreatdivide wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    momoneymoproblems.gif

    I've got 99 of them.

    99problems.gif
    _
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,740
    BenderRodriguez wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    momoneymoproblems.gif

    That was clearly drawn up by someone with no experience of the problems inherent in trying to make ends meet when on a low wage or benefits, and who thinks that an example of a 'problem' is trying to decide whether to buy a new BMW or a new Range Rover...

    I don't know what they want from me.
    _
  • Jez mon
    Jez mon Posts: 3,809
    And the prize for taking things entirely too seriously goes to...

    BenderRodriguez
    You live and learn. At any rate, you live
  • BenderRodriguez
    BenderRodriguez Posts: 907
    Pross wrote:
    is it worth spending thousands of pounds a year on EPO to win a race where the top prize is a few hundred? The assumption in the JTL case is that it was to earn a lucrative contract with a top pro team. Then you get anomalies like Dan Staite - maybe he was hoping for similar but it seems highly unlikely and unlike JTL his performances did enough to trigger suspicion amongst his peers that would have prevented them taking the risk. Probably just a vanity thing with some people but an expensive one!

    It is probably no more a 'vanity' thing than all those who spend thousands on carbon bikes, power meters, coaching services, aero labs, clothing and what-not just so they have a fighting chance of finishing some chipper road race or doing a 'PB' whilst being sucked along by lorries on some dual carriageway somewhere!

    Some people just really want to win, even if it just a 3rd cat RR, and will do just about anything to satisfy their obsession.
    "an original thinker… the intellectual heir of Galileo and Einstein… suspicious of orthodoxy - any orthodoxy… He relishes all forms of ontological argument": jane90.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,740
    Forget the winning - I bet riding on EPO feels f*cking great.
    _
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 18,941
    Pross wrote:
    Basically, is it worth spending thousands of pounds a year on EPO to win a race where the top prize is a few hundred? The assumption in the JTL case is that it was to earn a lucrative contract with a top pro team. Then you get anomalies like Dan Staite - maybe he was hoping for similar but it seems highly unlikely and unlike JTL his performances did enough to trigger suspicion amongst his peers that would have prevented them taking the risk. Probably just a vanity thing with some people but an expensive one!

    Is it worth spending £1000s on kit to break 25 mins in a local club 10 miler?
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,158
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Pross wrote:
    Basically, is it worth spending thousands of pounds a year on EPO to win a race where the top prize is a few hundred? The assumption in the JTL case is that it was to earn a lucrative contract with a top pro team. Then you get anomalies like Dan Staite - maybe he was hoping for similar but it seems highly unlikely and unlike JTL his performances did enough to trigger suspicion amongst his peers that would have prevented them taking the risk. Probably just a vanity thing with some people but an expensive one!

    Is it worth spending £1000s on kit to break 25 mins in a local club 10 miler?
    It depends how much money you have. If you are rich, why not have good kit? Some people spend tens of thousands on a car to sit in the same traffic jams as a Nissan Micra
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 40,602
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Pross wrote:
    Basically, is it worth spending thousands of pounds a year on EPO to win a race where the top prize is a few hundred? The assumption in the JTL case is that it was to earn a lucrative contract with a top pro team. Then you get anomalies like Dan Staite - maybe he was hoping for similar but it seems highly unlikely and unlike JTL his performances did enough to trigger suspicion amongst his peers that would have prevented them taking the risk. Probably just a vanity thing with some people but an expensive one!

    Is it worth spending £1000s on kit to break 25 mins in a local club 10 miler?

    But that isn't messing with your health at the same time although my answer to the above would be no unless that sort of money was nothing to me. Going off topic but I've never really thought of a PB being a PB unless it is under broadly the same conditions whether that is more aero kit or riding a faster course. It's pointless.

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